[WIP] A First Draft Presented for Peer Review

A number of folk have reported less CTDs and other benefits using Wrye Mash. Some of us have been reluctant to use it or experienced some difficulty in using it effectively, despite the extensive documentation provided by Wrye, here: http://wrye.ufrealms.net/Wrye%20Mash.html

So a couple of us have decided to try to put together an 'Idiot's Guide to Wrye Mash' to use alongside the author's documentation. If nothing else, it should help us learn to use the utility better ourselves.wink.gif

Larissa Mem has generously agreed to post the material she had written in the course of helping others and to edit that material into a finished guide, as improvements are suggested. Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.

Initial Outline to User's Guide:
1. Installation
2. * Monitoring Load Order and Maintaining Mod "Health" *
3. The Mash Levelled List
4. Cleaning Save Games
5. Reverting to Backed Up Save Games
6. Loading Masters

Subject to change

So, if you are an expert Wrye Mash user and can see how the directions can be corrected, re-worded, amended, re-sequenced or improved in any way, please post and let us know; the more specific or cut n'paste quotable your contribution is, the better.
And if you are not an expert: if you are unsure or struggling with Wrye Mash, please let us know what part is not clear to you and how this 'Guide' can be improved to help you.

My bias is this guide should end up to be concise, sequential and to the point, and that it needs to tell the user how to integrate Wrye Mash use with that of other utilities. It may take us a couppla versions to get to that happy state.
Once it is edited into final shape, maybe we can ask Wrye to cast a critical eye at it. Then we hope to convert it into HTML and host it at Mythic Mods so it remains available. [Emphasis added.]

We do not intend that it include extensive explanation about why doubling occurs, the game engine, the theory of levelled lists etc etc etc. Those issues are relevant of course and may well come up in the thread but can only serve to lengthen and confuse a step-by-step guide, so don't expect to see it all included.

What this 'Guide" is NOT is: a technical guide to Mash or customizing, a plug or testimonial, an attempt to convert anyone to its use, a platform for undue criticism of this or other utilities or their authors or a great many other things, including a complete guide to using and managing mods. We're still workin' on that one. heee.gif


So, we would appreciate your help. . . . have at it! biggrin.gif
Hi! smile.gif

1. What to Do Before You Mash

How about new heading--"Mash's Role in Managing Mods" or something similar--since the order of what to do is all over the place (i.e., it's no longer "what to do BEFORE you Mash") and since I'm going to suggest that this just get totally rewritten as a general sketch of what to do with mods. This may not be the better approach, but I thought I would try it this way.

I am assuming you have minimal knowledge of mods--how to unzip, install, and play them from the Data Files screen in Morrowind. If you don't yet know how to do that, you should begin with Starting Out With Mods as well as the Elders Scrolls Forums' FAQ thread about Morrowind Mods and some installation tutorials.

To keep your Morrowind game running perfectly, you need to do a few main things:

a. Clean your mods of anything that might harm your game (especially, GSMTs--extra code that can mess up your game) and edit them as necessary
b. Check the mods you want to use in order to detect any potential conflicts between mods (for example--two buildings occupying the same space)
c. Place your mods in a workable order;
d. Merge objects and merge levelled lists in the game;
and
e. Clean saved games to prevent various errors, including "doubling" of objects (literally, seeing two of everything when you play a save game!)

WryeMash is one of many utilities out there that can help you with this process. It can help you with c) and part of d), and is the only utility available to perform e) for you. It can also help with many other functions, as described in the document that comes with WryeMash. This is a brief overview of some Mash's abilities and how they fit with other existing programs.


Here are a few short comments about how to perform the tasks I just described, about the order to perform them in, and about the utilities you can use for the job:

a. Clean your mods using TESTools, TESAME, or the Enchanted Editor. Mention WryeVaccine here?

Although the major mod websites do check their mods, it's a good idea to re-clean your own mods, and to clean any home-made mods. The easiest way to clean a mod is to run it through TESTools. TESAME and the Enchanted Editor give you more control but also require you to know more. Some people think certain mods should not be cleaned with TESTools; see this thread for varying opinions on the topic.

b. Check for conflicts using any of the utilities in a) above, using the CS, or using TES Plugin Conflict Dectector

Mods often conflict with one another, especially quest mods or landmass mods. There are ways to find out about general conflicts by reading about them on websites. Telesphoros' List discusses some quest conflicts; this map shows landmasses involved in larger mods; and there are ways to solve conflicts in the Construction Set if you know how to use it. TESTools has an automatic "Just Fix It!" function, although sometimes this can introduce problems.

Alternatively, TESTools can generate a conflicts report so you can decide what action to take about those conflicts.

c. Reorder your mods.

The order in which your mods are arranged is quite important. WryeMash is enormously helpful in maintaining mod load order; you can use Mash on its own or in conjunction with another program--from the Construction Set to TESTools to a utility called Reorder Plugins--to do this. There is much more on load order below, since it is a main Mash function.

d. Merged objects and Levelled lists.

TESTools can create a merged objects file for you that you treat like a mod and load towards the end of you mod list. You will find an explanation of how to generate it and use it with Mash below, but some other steps in Mash probably need to come first before you are able to create it. Levelled Lists determine your chance of running across random amounts of money, loot, villains, creatures, and so on in mods that add those. TESTools and WryeMash can create a file that figures out the chance of doing these for all your mods put together; WryeMash's method covers more than TESTools' does.

For an explanation of why you would need to merge objects, see this post. For an explanation of why you need to use levelled lists, see [link]

e. Clean saved games

You will need WryeMash for this, and below you'll read in detail how to do this. Almost any time you add or delete a mod to the list of mods you are using, you run the risk of creating doubling and other errors that may cause problems in your game. WryeMash cleans up the problems that changing mods introduces. Let's turn to look at Mash and its main functions.

- Edits 3/15--Many, including deletion of archived list of edits. I have a printout if you need to know--PM me. bonk.gif
- Obviously will have to rework (or edit out need for) links in final version.
2. Maintaining Mod "Health" and Monitoring Mod Load Order

There are two main tabs you can work with in Mash--the Mods tab and the Saves tab. You use Mash in order to keep your save games updated, cleaned, and playing nicely with the mods that you currently want to use. So you will be switching from the mods to the saves tab and making adjustments to both each time you install or remove a new set of mods.

Install and run WryeMash. You should see a screen with those two tabs: a mods tab and a saves tab.

Click on the mods tab so that you can see what mods you have. You can tell which mods are active or in use the same way you do from the DataFiles screen of Morrowind or the Construction Set or TESTools: mods you are using now have a checkmark next to them. The goal here is to make sure your mods are in good shape and to get them into a workable order. Morrowind loads mods by the time and date they were modified; this is called its load order.

Notice that if you RIGHT click on the bar right below the word Mods, you get a menu. On that menu you just pulled up, if click on "sort," you can sort your mods by many things--their author, their size, when they were last modified, and so on. Click "sort by" and then click "load order" so that you can tell what your current load order is. Before you do anything else, click "lock times." That will keep you from messing up the work you've done to adjust your load order with an accidental click of your mouse.

Check all the mods you want to be active (that is, check all the mods you want to play.) Now, examine the colors of the checkboxes of your mods. You need to make sure the mods are in good shape. WryeMash uses a color-coding sytem to let you know what the "health" of your mods and your save-games is. If any mods
are showing red or pinky-orange, it's because there are two or more mods that have the very same date and time of creation. Since we're trying to make a clear order for the mods to go in, having mods that load at the exact same time is no good. Mash will highlight mods like this for you and ask you to fix them. It's easy to change the time Mash thinks a mod was created by typing a new time in one of the boxes to the right of the mod, and then going down below that box to click save. (This part of the Mash menu, where the Mod or Save name, time, and Masters list is displayed, is called the "details" box.)

Voila--the mods should turn a healthy green. If the mod is yellow, that means that the mod (or another mod it depends on [?]) was created using a different version of Morrowind than the one you are using. For example, the mod-maker only had Morrowind, and you have GOTY. [Okay, do I _finally_ have this right? Or does it have to do with what version of each of the master .esms you have (which patch, etc.?).] To fix a yellow mod, you can do a couple of things. The easiest would be to look over at the details box, where it lists the mods and game files this mod depends on. If they are all green or better, you can click on the yellow mod, click once inside the details box, say "okay" to the pop-up message, and press "Save." Fix all the mods until the box next to them is green.

Next, you want to try to go about making your load order a good one. What's a good load order? That's the subject of debate. You can use an external utility like TESTools or Reorder Plugins to help you generate a load order, or you can determine it yourself by reading what others have had to say about load order here.

If you want to use another utility to order your mods for you, right click on the bar below the mods tab, and unclick "Lock Times." Then close Mash and open up whatever program you want to work with to reorder your mods. That program will rearrange your mods and set new dates and times for each plugin. When you open Mash again, you simply lock-in these new dates and times by right clicking again on the bar below the mods tab and turning "Lock Times" back on.

I tend to manage my own load order using Mash, which has the advantage of cutting out an extra step. Generally, I put things that change the game least, like faces, clothes packs, armor, and weapons mods, at the top of the list, some small item replacers and retextures next, then house mods, then game tweaks, and last quest
mods. Do remember to read all readmes; if aspects of load order are crucial they should (hopefully) discuss them. In general, remember that if there's a conflict between mods that Morrowind can solve, the last mod in the load order "wins," so in case of doubt put mods you want more lower on your list. Your "MashedList.esp" and "MergedObjects.esp" are some of the items you will want to put at the very end--we'll deal with that in the next section.

When you are happy with your load order and all your mods show are showing green to indicate they are in good health, you're ready to go on to adding in the Mashed Levelled List and MergedObjects, if you like, or to go take a look at your save games.


- Edits 3/15 Read the readme in detail and substantially revised the explanation of mod colors. Attempted to explain yellow mods AGAIN as well as the fix for them.
3. The Merged Levelled List and Merged Objects

Two things you will want to add to your game only after you have finished setting your final load order are a levelled list and a merged objects file. Both of these need to load toward the very end of your load list; they take the information from mods that come before them and crunch it down.

For example, a merged levelled lists organizes all the the levelled lists that individual mods use, so that if you are looking in random loot, or encountering random creatures in mods that introduce those things, Morrowind will merge all those random chances into one big calculation of chance. Mash has its own comprehensive levelled list, MashedList.esp, so you not need to use an external utility to reorder your level list.

To take advantage of this feature, look inside your c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind\Mopy folder, for your "MashedList.esp" file, packed inside the "Extras" folder. Copy it from your "Extras" folder into your Data Files--the same place it would go if it were a mod. Check off the box next to the MashedList and change its date so that it loads towards the very end of your mod list. Now, you want to get those levelled items into your Mashed List. To do this, right click on the MashedList.esp, click "Import," and click "Merged Lists." You should see Mash run a little calculation merging your lists, and it will report when it's done.

Another file that you will want to put towards the very end of your mod list is MergedObjects, which you can create in TESTools. Merged objects collects all the changes various mods make to an item and coordinates them. Close Mash and open TESTools. It will load the same list of active mods, in the same order, that you just created in Mash--you don't want to alter any of this information. Just select "Merge Objects for Active Plugins" and then press "Execute"; TESTools will create a MergedObject.esp. When you open Mash, and again change its date so that it loads toward the very end of your mod list, near where the MashedList.esp is.

Edit 3/11: Took out the questions asking if I was right when people said I was. tongue.gif Attempted to add something about Merged objects pursuant to Wrye's comments.

Edits 3/12:
- Overhauled this to explain levelled lists and merged objects in hopefully clearer way, focusing on using Mash to do this
- Would consider writing this in a different way . . . quite open to suggestions here
4. Cleaning Save Games

This is basically totally rewritten


Next, go over to your saves tab. It's possible that at this stage, your saves are showing very-not-blue. That's not good--with saves, the best possible color for the checkbox next to them is baby blue. The first thing you want to do is make it so that the saves are based on the same mods that you have loaded now.

"But how can that be?," you say. "I made the saves with "The Mod What Sucks Kwama Eggs," and I just decided to delete that mod and substitute "The Best Mod Evah, by SilverSorrow," so the mods that correspond to each save game will never match the master files I currently have checked off on my mod list!" Ah, that is where WryeMash comes in.

Many problems can occur when you add or delete mods. Sometimes, for example, you might accidentally delete a mod you have that is required for another mod to run (another way to put it is that the second mod is dependent on its master files--including all of the Morrowind game files and the first mod.) An example of this would be if you needed a custom-designed race as an NPC in a quest mod, and you had installed both the race mod and the quest, but later on you forgot why you

had some strange creature in your list of races and decided to get rid of it. Your quest mod might not work anymore or might start to cause errors. Another major cause of errors is shifting around the order of mods. Even if you simply delete a mod from the middle of your list, you have changed the mods' load order (the mod that loaded 9th before is now loading 8th.) With all of these changes, you can have problems with your save games. The information stored in the saves needs to match the information stored in the mods you have on file, or Morrowind can get confused. Mash helps it unconfuse itself. (This is the preschool-level explanation of doubling!)

To fix your save games so that they correspond to the mods you have loaded now, click on an ugly pink save, and then right click on the bar under the column to the side of the Saves tab that says "Masters", right next to where it says "File" (in that details area). You will bring up another menu, just like you did with the mods tab.

To get the same list that you have loaded for this save game (the one that deleted the "Mod What Sucks Kwama Eggs," and which needs to be adapted to "The Best Mod Evah,"), click "Sync to Load," and press save. This will make this save game use the same mods as those you have loaded.

You're still not done, though. There still may be differences in your save game between the information it has stored and the information your mods have. For example, your save games still may have something recorded from that mod that sucked kwama eggs, like some item that got left behind. To clean up any messed up information after the sync to load process, you need to "repair all" the possible problems in your save. Go to the save itself, right click on it, and click "Repair All."

This will clean up anything that doesn't correspond to what you have loaded.

If you've done all this correctly, this save should be showing blue. Actually, however, it's important for all your saves to be in usable condition. If the save you're going to play is blue and your past saves are green, that's enough for now. If any of your mods turn a yellow, pink/orange, or red color, however, you will need to go back and fix them up as well. Having old saves around in bad condition is not a good idea--and you should never try to save OVER anything but a blue save while playing a healthy game.

To fix those unsightly save games, just repeat the process we performed on the first save game--when you have the mod list the way you want it to be, click on the save game, right click below the master file, click "Sync to Load List," and then hit save. You should also occasionally run "repair all" on past save games to keep them in the best of shape.

Some people get nervous about the repair all function. If you're worried about trying to use a Mash function, keep in mind that Mash lets you records of your files in three ways, so you have many saftey nets available to you. For more on those, read the next section.

- Edit 3/14: minor change re: blue v. green saves. I don't want to get too complicated, but at least the info is there. We'll want to emphasize the importance of the readme as the definitive source for all Mash questions, of course.

- Comprehensive Edit 3/15: Probably too long-winded on doubling without giving any information on doubling. What I wanted to do was emphasize that shifting load order is a major no-no. I'll return to clarify this. Is the more stringent statement about not saving over old (green) saves right? Basically, I just don't re-use save slots anymore. unsure.gif

-I've played around with Mash repeatedly but see no way to update all saves at one time. I thought I had managed to do this once but have not been able to repeat it. ??
5. Reverting to Backed Up Saves

Okay, you've cleaned your save (perhaps adding to your safe cell list first to make sure that you kept what you needed from it.) Say you want to load up a new mod, but you are worried that you won't like the results. You can do a couple of things. Mash automatically backs up your files for you. You may also want to duplicate them (recommended), because the automatic backup is made as soon as you open Mash and take any action. Any later changes you make in Mash won't be backed up. (For example, if you open Mash and reorder your mods, Mash will back up your saves before the reordering. However, it will not make a specific backup of the save before you delete a mod and clean it, and finally added a mod and synced to that load list. If you later want to go back to that backup, you'd need to remember what you had done and reproduce all those intermediate steps to get your save to where it was right before you synced to the new load list. Perhaps best just to duplicate the save. smile.gif )

Click on the save you want to make a copy of, click File, and click Duplicate. It's that easy! Still, the backup function is very helpful. If you ever performed an action you didn't mean to, or installed a mod you didn't like without creating a duplicate, you can try attempting to "Revert to Backup". There is also the function "Revert to first backup", which is the first backup that Mash EVER made of your save--but in the case of most people, that was quite some time ago.

Edit 3/11: hopefully clarified the difference between backing up and duplicating.

6. Loading Masters

This is particularly relevant for modders, but is helpful for everyone. Say you were working on a mod, and so ended up with only one data file selected. Or say you tried a new mod on a duplicated save, played a few sessions with it, but decided you didn't like it, and want to go back to the way things were. To get to the list of mods you were using for a particular save that is out of tune with the mods that are on your load list WITHOUT syncing to load (because, remember, you DON'T want those loaded mods to be a part of your game, find a game that is not blue, which means that it doesn't have the mod files it needs to run it. Right click on it and click "Load Masters." That will load the masters file for that save, and you will find that (as long as you still have them installed), the mod will return to blue. (You will probably still need to clean it, just to make sure everything's okay.) You can use the "Update" function so that the same master list governs all the saves you have.

You can also get to this list of masters from a backup. Say you have a save where you don't like what happened, but you know there was a save in that slot before a sync to load that had a set of masters you did like. Revert to backup, right click and press load masters, and you should get the master files that governed that game.

Update, and press save. You'll have the masters you wanted again. For any unhealthy-looking-saves, sync to load list. Clean as appropriate, and play!


Thanks, Larissa Mem! fing34.gif

OK, folks, draft's up . . . your comments and corrections would be welcome. 932.gif
Great guide for n00bs like me. I have a silly question but do you use the latest beta version of the tool or the safe and tested 0.60 version?

Also could someone please bump the thread of mods that SHOULDNT be cleaned. That might even be a good thing to add to your list too if you added a short list of the most common mods that shouldnt be cleaned.

Also with the mod reorder function it would help to expand on what should be ordered where and give examples, the more examples the better I think.

Thanks biggrin.gif
QUOTE(_Bonk_ @ Mar 10 2006, 03:38 PM)
Great guide for n00bs like me. I have a silly question but do you use the latest beta version of the tool or the safe and tested 0.60 version?

Hopefully the gurus will help us make it better, Bonk, but thanks. Credits to Larissa: she did all the work.

I use the 0.60 version, waiting for someone to tell me the other is tested and good-to-go.
Hello,
QUOTE( Post n1 of Larissa Mem)
1. What to Do Before You Mash
c. Reorder your mods using ReorderPlugins. [??? More on this? How is this related to b.? Will it automatically detect conflicts?]

Mash alone can be use to reorder the plug-in (and it's probably my favorite tool to do this): just select the mod -> on the right, you see 3 boxes -> "File" "Author" "Modified": just change the date to what you need in the box "modified"
QUOTE( Post n1 of Larissa Mem)
d. Merge objects.
TESTools will create a merge objects file for you. We will return to this after working with Mash for some time. [Comments?]

I've written something about the merge object function: here
I'll try to make it more complete if you want.
QUOTE(3.The Mash Levelled List)
If you used the Mashed.List.esp, you do NOT need to use an external utility to reorder your level lists.  [Right?]

That's totally right.
QUOTE(3.The Mash Levelled List)
[I think Merged Objects from TesTools would also go here, after being merged in TesTools.  ??  Return to this.]

TesTool works differently than WryeMash. TesTool resequence EVERY list present in master / plug-in files... and you need to use Levelledlist resequencer to have the list in the right order. Wrye Mash resequence ONLY list that need this. That's why you usually get a smaller files when you use your list with Mash.
Bjam
Edit: I used v0.60 and never got any problem. I now use v0.63 and everything works fine.
Re-edit: After re-reading my post, I can't understand why I did my last quote... shrug.gif Too much work and not enough time to sleep... shrug.gif
Re-re-edit (the last one I promiss): I'm really sorry, I forgot the most important rolleyes.gif slap.gif
THANK YOU LARISSA MEM fing34.gif smile.gif twirl.gif
We now have got a link to give to the people who have savegame problem. thumbsup.gif
I believe a yellow mod is a mod that will give this error

QUOTE
"One of the files that "Dummy.esp" is dependent on has changed since the last save. This may result in errors. Saving again will clear this message but not necessarily fix any errors."


in the warning file.
[quote=Ronin49,Mar 10 2006, 01:44 PM]
[WIP] A Draft Presented for Peer Review

Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.

[i][b]Outline to User's Guide:
1. Installation

I have never successfully used Wrye Mash, so my comment on installation is a good starting point. Having installed Java and required files, I had hoped Wrye Mash would launch when double-clicked. However, it did not find the support files and failed to launch. (I used List Leveler to do what I had to do.)

fing34.gif
QUOTE(Jafre @ Mar 10 2006, 05:05 PM)
QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Mar 10 2006, 01:44 PM)
[WIP] A Draft Presented for Peer Review
Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.
Yeah, thanks, Jaffre. I'm clear on that. thumbsup.gif
We will amend the intro when we get there. When it's done we will edit out all the caveats - for now it is a draft for peer review, WIP, basis for comment, strawman, all of the above. biggrin.gif

And Larissa has an installation section just waiting for your comment. Drat! Mea culpa. wink.gif
Hold on . . . I reckon she can be persuaded to post it when she next checks into the thread.
Oh, alright, you twisted my arm painfully in its socket until I was forced to cut and paste my installation section from my document. smile.gif

0. Installation: To use WryeMash, you first need to download and install two little utilities called Python and wxPython; the links for these are at Wrye's site. Make sure you install first Python, then wxPython, and then unzip Mash into your Morrowind directory (usually c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind). You should end up with a folder within your Morrowind folder called "Mopy," and most of the Mash-related items are lurking around in there. [You may also want to back up your current save games to entirely place, in case you decide to uninstall Mash down the line?? I did this the first time I installed because I was so freaked out by Mash . . . ]

You'll also hopefully end up with a little green checkmark desktop icon, or a way to get one. Click on it, and off you go. This is WryeMash.

Now, Jafre, if you did this, in THIS order (it has to be done exactly in this order, and the files need to be specific versions of Python and wxPython), and it's STILL not working, there are other problems that can crop up. I am not fully versed in them; but that's why we have other people besides me here. There are a few threads on this. Apparently one of the biggest problems as I understand is if you've installed Morrowind to a d: drive, and then there's some tweakage required. There are a few old threads on this, and again, I need to put those on my "To hunt down . . . " list.

Hope that helps some.

I believe Ronin49 posted the link to Wrye's site at the start of this thread, no? smile.gif

I will see what else I can find that will be of use.

bjam--I found your merged object post to be quite helpful and meant to incorporate it--thank you for the link. As you can see, it's now in the thread.

I'm still not quite sure I understand your second point though. I see that Mash's merged level list is generally more helpful than TESTools', but that still doesn't answer the question of how one merges objects, with or without another utility, when using Mash??????? (How many utilities are needed, what process do you use?)

_bonk_--so you'd like more examples of possible load orders? Sure, I can give them--also in the mean time you can try clicking on one of the very subtle "here" links I posted. rolleyes.gif I'll have to say more than "here" from now on. wink.gif

I'll also try to find that cleaning thread for you, that was a good one. In general mods that are heavily dialogue based are ones you shouldn't clean with TESTools, I think, as it can royally mess up dialogue--but I should perhaps learn before I speak. smile.gif

Thanks folks.
Here are the links: like I said, don't expect to see all this stuff replicated in the Guide. Guides are short, sequential, direct. Otherwise folk just get lost in 'em:

Load Order - the newer one

Load Order - the 'original' - *bump* ocassionally

Plugin's you shouldn't clean with TesTool - I take this one with a grain of salt these days myself; your mileage may vary. My reasons?: I'm lazy, the list does not entirely conform with my own experience, I think mods folks have trouble with get loaded onto this thread and so on. shrug.gif
That said, there is a lot of good and useful information there: just bring salt, in my opinion. smile.gif

Edit: Load Order links corrected.
A comment regarding installation location of Wyre Mash and Morrowind on another partition like D:

* It is absolutely irrelevant where Mash is installed. I for example have it in C:\Programme\Mopy ("Programme" being the equivalent for "Program Files" of a German Windows). You can also put it into H:\myjunk\greatstuff\Mopy. It doesn't matter at all.

However, you might need to adjust the shortcut command. If you right-click on the shortcut and select Properties, you get a dialog where you can enter the Target executable and working directory.

For target, the entry would look like: C:\Python24\pythonw.exe mash.py
Working directory (in my case): C:\Programme\Mopy

The general way to start a Python program - not only Wyre Mash -, is "pythonw.exe my_python_program.py". As "pythonw.exe" is not found by Windows automatically, you need to give the full path like in "C:\Python24\pythonw.exe". "mash.py" will be searched in the working directory, that's why we set it in the other textbox.

* The location of Morrowind itself is also irrelevant for the usage of Mash. When Mash starts for the first time, you can select the path to your Morrowind directory. I for example have it in D:\Spiele\Morrowind.

Reason for this post is that I often read that Wyre Mash must be in the same directory as Morrowind to function properly, but this information is plain wrong. Intention isn't to be overcritical of this excellent thread but to add some more information which might be useful.
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 10 2006, 07:47 PM)
...
From here, you can also Edit Removers [What the heck does this do????]
...
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This allows you to add a remover from "...\Mopy\Data" into the list. It can be one provided by Wrye or a custom remover made by yourself.
I'd say this is not the kind of thing you want explained in this tutorial, because, well, anyone willing to learn such thing will probably find better to read "Wrye Notes: Doubling Explained" and "Wrye Mash.html"


This might prove useful regarding what a remover does:

QUOTE(Wrye Notes: Doubling Explained)
Purge Esp and Resave

-  If you simply remove an esp from your loadlist, load your game up and resave, then you'll purge all unique items, cells, etc. associated with that mod.

-  Alternatively, if you have a loot mod for that esp, you can load up that loot mod in place of the original mod. This should allow you to keep the loot that you've collected while purging all other unique items.

-  What happens here is that references for unique items are purged from all cell records in the ess. Not only are placement/movement records purged, but so are deletion records. I.e., the references are completely removed.

-  Limitations

-  Some references have matching records that are not part of the cell record. E.g., containers can have CNTC records associated with them. I don't know if these also get purged. But even if they don't, these garbage records will not cause doubling problems.

-  Non-unique references are not removed. E.g., if the esp places a rampaging guar in the middle of Seyda Neen, that will not be removed during the purge/resave process. Moreover, deletion records of such non-unique items will continue to exist and may end up deleting references of another mod.

-  I've heard that even some types of unique items will not be (fully) deleted. Apparently, if you see a headless NPC wandering around, this is where he comes from! 


The removers provided by Wrye contain references for many standard Bethesda objects (creatures, containers, doors, etc...) and some mods. Now I've never had the need to use a remover, partly because "Repair All" covered all my purging needs, but I presume that they can be used to remove these specific dirty non-unique references from your .ess.
QUOTE(ps33 @ Mar 11 2006, 08:41 AM)
...
* It is absolutely irrelevant where Mash is installed. I for example have it in C:\Programme\Mopy ("Programme" being the equivalent for "Program Files" of a German Windows). You can also put it into H:\myjunk\greatstuff\Mopy. It doesn't matter at all.
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Correct, my Mash shortcut looks like this:
Target: E:\Programs\Python24\pythonw.exe E:\Games\Morrowind\Mopy\mash.py
Start In: E:\Games\Morrowind\Mopy

QUOTE(ps33 @ Mar 11 2006, 08:41 AM)
...
Reason for this post is that I often read that Wyre Mash must be in the same directory as Morrowind to function properly, but this information is plain wrong. Intention isn't to be overcritical of this excellent thread but to add some more information which might be useful.
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If you have a non-standard Morrowind installation, Mash will ask you where the game is the first time it runs. Once you've told it (E:\Games\Morrowind in my example), it saves that information and always knows in future.
I have a question. If I hit the sync to masters button for a mod and then save it will I ruin things? Is the sync to masters button only for working with save games and updating them rather than mods?

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[QUOTE][quote=Larissa Mem,Mar 10 2006, 04:55 PM]
0. Installation: To use WryeMash, you first need to download and install two little utilities called Python and wxPython; the links for these are at Wrye's site. Make sure you install first Python, then wxPython, and then unzip Mash into your Morrowind directory (usually c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind). You should end up with a folder within your Morrowind folder called "Mopy," and most of the Mash-related items are lurking around in there.[/QUOTE]

Sorry! I said Java, but installed the proper version of Python.

[QUOTE][quote=Larissa Mem,Mar 10 2006, 04:55 PM]
Now, Jafre, if you did this, in THIS order (it has to be done exactly in this order, and the files need to be specific versions of Python and wxPython), and it's STILL not working, there are other problems that can crop up. I am not fully versed in them; but that's why we have other people besides me here. There are a few threads on this. Apparently one of the biggest problems as I understand is if you've installed Morrowind to a d: drive, and then there's some tweakage required. There are a few old threads on this, and again, I need to put those on my "To hunt down . . . " list.

Thanks folks.
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[/QUOTE]

Actually, mine is installed on an 'I' drive.

[QUOTE][QUOTE](Jafre @ Mar 10 2006, 05:05 PM)
[QUOTE](Ronin49 @ Mar 10 2006, 01:44 PM)
[WIP] A Draft Presented for Peer Review
Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, thanks, Jaffre. I'm clear on that. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Sorry! I missed the final quote mark when I clipped Ronin49's initial note. My comment was only to point out a lacking I had found.


blush.gif
Jafre, it's OK; doesn't matter . . . wink.gif
. . . but you are still messing the quotes in your post and so I am not sure what your question or comment is . . . ?
Can you try it again please, maybe avoiding use of quotes if that is practical?
QUOTE(_Bonk_ @ Mar 10 2006, 11:05 PM)
I have a question. If I hit the sync to masters button for a mod and then save it will I ruin things? Is the sync to masters button only for working with save games and updating them rather than mods?

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Define "ruin things"? smile.gif The sync to load list is only for save games. You cannot sync a mod to a master file through Mash. (Er, as far as I know.)

You want to sync to load list for your saves and then repair all references. It means "fix up all the references for any mods, added or deleted or changed." Yes, you may affect your save games, which is why you might want to make a duplicate and/or a backup. (Since I still haven't figured out when the backup process happens automatically in Mash, I sometimes do both. biggrin.gif) It's the same common sense process you SHOULD take if you are adding a mod or deleting one--backup your save. It just sounds a little scarier in Mash for some reason. wink.gif

I'm glad Ronin49 and Larissa are taking this on. I'll try to throw some comments in as time permits. (Life is busy at the moment. SXSW! Woohoo!)

Ummm... First comment, please be sure to read my original readme closely if you're going to be writing an auxiliary help file. For example,
QUOTE(Larissa Mem)
A yellow mod means [WHAT exactly DOES a yellow mod mean? Anyone??]

QUOTE(Wrye Mash Docs)
- Red: The master is missing. Either the mod file has been removed, or it's name has been changed.
- Orange: The master file is out of load order compared to the rest of the masters in the master list.
- Yellow: The master file's size has changed since the game was last saved. This likely indicates a change to the mod file which may result in objectIndex caused mismatching.
- Green: The master file is in order compared to the other files in the master list, but is out of order compared to the files in the current load list.
- Blue: The master file is synced has the right size and is in the right order.


A couple of other notes:
* You can set load order through Mash. Just change the date of the file you want to reorder. It's possible to also use other load ordering utilities -- but you have to turn off lock times before doing so and then turn it back on aftewards. It's easier to reorder from within mash.
* You need to distinguish between line colors and checkbox colors. They mean very different things.
* You'll never see a blue checkbox anywhere on the mods tab. That's because blue indicates synchrony with the current load list -- which is only relevant for save games.
* Several different mods want to be loaded last. Obviously only one mod can actually be last. It'd be more accurate to say "lastish". You might note that it's a good idea to set the date for "lastish" mods in the future. (I use something like 1/1/2010.)
* TesTools "Merged Objects.esp" is indeed a lastish mod.
* Repair All doesn't actually repair everything. E.g., it doesn't remove items from inventory. Why? Because the Morrowind engine will do this when you play the game. Mash mostly fixes stuff that the Morrowind engine doesn't fix (or doesn't fix correctly). In short "Mash pre-cleans the save game. When you play the save game, Morrowind will complete the cleaning process (and probably show you some error messages in the process)."
* Backup process... Mash makes two backups for any mod or save game it messes with. 1. It makes a first time only backup the very first time it touches the mod/save game. I.e., it allows you to go back to a completely virgin version of the mod/save game. But if that backup is old it's probably too old. (Which is why mash throws up a are you sure you want to revert to backup dated m/d/yy message.) 2. For a given Mash session, it will make a backup the first time you mess with the mod. I.e., if you start Mash, make 2 or 3 changes to the mod/save game and then realize one of them broke something, you can revert. A "Mash session" starts when you start Mash. "Revert to Backup" is a safety net, but not a perfect one. You may want to use Duplicate and/or Snapshot instead since these give you a lot more control.

Blue vs. Green Saves
It's a common misperception that all your saves should be blue. In fact, only the mods that you're going to play with the current load list need to be blue. E.g., suppose that you have a save for an advanced character with a standard, stable set of mods (Yoda.ess). Now, suppose that you want to try some new quest mod (e.g., Great Shores). At that point, you could...
* Check "Great Shores v1.01.esp" on the mods tab.
* Go to the saves tab and duplicate the Yoda save. Call the new save something like "Yoda Shores 0"
* Now, do a "Sync to Master" on "Yoda Shores 0". That will make it blue, but leave the original "Yoda" save green.
Now, go play with Yoda Shores 0. This is what I usually do. If I play Yoda Shores enough, then I may make it my new base. But if something goes wrong, or if I want to rewind, then I just go back to my original "Yoda" save. Granted, I could not fork, and instead update the original "Yoda", and then use Mash to remove "Great Shores" from it later -- but forking is a bit safer. Also, if you don't finish mega-quest-mod 1, and instead want to work on mega-quest-mod 2, then you can go back to the original "Yoda" fork it again, add mega-quest-mod-2 and work on that instead -- without having to completely erase mega-quest-mod 1.

Keeping Loot Items [Advanced Topic]
If you want to mostly delete a mod, but keep some loot, then you'll need a loot version of the mod. Some modders provide such mods. (If they don't then you'll need to use TESCS to extract the items that you want into a separate mod. Or you might put them into a merged loot mod.) If loot mod is just data (doesn't place anything into the game world), then you can just add the new mod and remove the old mod in the usual Mash way. If the loot mod does place objects in the game world (i.e. has cell records), then you would need to use a Mash updater. But I bet this situation is rare to non-existent.

QUOTE
I have a question. If I hit the sync to masters button for a mod and then save it will I ruin things? Is the sync to masters button only for working with save games and updating them rather than mods?

Does what you would expect... It will sync the MOD to the currently selected masters. Generally you would only do this to add a dependency to a master file. Very rare that you would need to do this. And if one of the needed masters is not currently selected, it would be removed from the mods master list. Which is would probably be unwise -- unless you know what you're doing.

Note that mods depend on esm files in the same way that save games depend on mods (esms + esps). For most mods there's no need to "Repair Refs", but for a few mods it's f158 required. If it turns out to be required, Mash will actually tell you so while trying to clean a save game that depends on it. I think that I've only seen two mods that need to be repaired in this way -- and I think that both of them have since been fixed by their authors.
Hello,

QUOTE
bjam--
I'm still not quite sure I understand your second point though. I see that Mash's merged level list is generally more helpful than TESTools', but that still doesn't answer the question of how one merges objects, with or without another utility, when using Mash??????? (How many utilities are needed, what process do you use?)


1 - What are Levelled list
A levelled list is a list of object (monster, ingredient in a barrel...) that is linked to the player in-game level.

Example 1 -> monster list:
CODE
Player Level        Monster that will fight you
1-5                    Cliff racer
5-10                  Kagouti
10-20                Golden saint
>20                   Extra-super-monster


If this list is used in-game, the stronger the player is (or to be more precise, the higher the player level is), and the stronger monster you'll have to fight.

Example 2 -> NPC list:
This is the method used by MCA (Morrowind Comes alive): You just add a few spawn point, then you link this point to a levelled list in which you put NPC.

2 - Why merging levelled list?
If a levelled list exist in Morrowind.esm, then is modified by mods, when you play, you only get the levelled list of the latest mod loaded (which change the list).
Example:
Morrowind.esm
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer
5-10                  Kagouti
10-20                Golden saint
>20                   Extra-super-monster


mod1.esp
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer (50%) or rat (50%)
5-10                  Dremora
10-20                Golden saint
20-30                Extra-super-monster
>30                   Mega-extra-super-monster


mod2.esp
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer
5-10                  Kagouti
10-20                Golden saint (50%) or Ancestral ghost (50%)
>20                   Extra-super-monster


If you run Morrowind, mod1 and mod2
- without merging list :
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer
5-10                  Kagouti
10-20                Golden saint (50%) or Ancestral ghost (50%)
>20                   Extra-super-monster


You only get the list from mod2.


(NOTE: If you change the load order to Morrowind, mod2, mod1:
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer (50%) or rat (50%)
5-10                  Dremora
10-20                Golden saint
20-30                Extra-super-monster
>30                   Mega-extra-super-monster

You only get the list from mod1)

- after merging list
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer (50%) or rat (50%)
5-10                  Kagouti (50%) or Dremora (50%)
10-20                Golden saint (50%) or Ancestral ghost (50%)
20-30                Extra-super-monster
>30                   Mega-extra-super-monster


You get a merging of list from mod1 and mod2, so you'll be able to see the monster of both mods (which is very useful if you want to play with two mods that change Morrowind's monster)

3 - How to merge levelled list?
You can do this by two different ways:

- TesTool + Levelled list resequencer:
Launch TesTool
Manage active plug-ins -> Execute
Select the plug-ins that you want to merge (check the box) -> Ok
Select Merge Levelled lists for active plug-ins
Close TesTool
Launch Levelled lists resequencer

- Wrye Mash
Copy Mashedlist.esp from \Mopy\Extras to \Data Files
Launch Wrye Mash
Right-Click on MashedList -> import -> Merged list...

If you use Wrye Mash, you don't need to resequence your list.

4 - Differences
- TesTool takes all the levelled list and put them after each other., that's why then you need to resequence them. Wrye Mash is merging and resequencing lists alone.
From example above, Morrowind + Mod1 + Mod2

Merged levelled list (with TesTool before resequencing):
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer
5-10                  Kagouti
10-20                Golden saint
>20                   Extra-super-monster
1-5                    Cliff racer (50%) or rat (50%)
5-10                  Dremora
10-20                Golden saint
20-30                Extra-super-monster
>30                   Mega-extra-super-monster
1-5                    Cliff racer
5-10                  Kagouti
10-20                Golden saint (50%) or Ancestral ghost (50%)
>20                   Extra-super-monster


Merge levelled list (with Wrye Mash or TesTool after resequencing):
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer (50%) or rat (50%)
5-10                  Kagouti (50%) or Dremora (50%)
10-20                Golden saint (50%) or Ancestral ghost (50%)
20-30                Extra-super-monster
>30                   Mega-extra-super-monster


- TesTool merge EVERY list it can find whereas WryeMash merge ONLY lists that need to be merged.
If a list is in Morrowind.esm and is modified by only one mod, well you want to get the list directly, from this mod, so it doesn't need to be merged.
Example -> see above with only Morrowind and Mod1

Merged_levelled_list.esp (with TesTool + Levelledlists resequencer):
CODE
player level         monster list
1-5                    Cliff racer (50%) or rat (50%)
5-10                  Dremora
10-20                Golden saint
20-30                Extra-super-monster
>30                   Mega-extra-super-monster


MashedLists (with Wrye Mash):
You don't get anything, it is normal because IT DOESN'T NEED MERGING!

- Using Wrye Mash OR TesTool + Levelled lists resequencer doesn't make any differences in most of the case.

5 - Most important information
- Before launching a new game
- Copy-Paste MashedList.esp in your Data Files
- Launch Wrye Mash
- Check the box near MashedList.esp (to "active" it in your new game)
- Right click on MashedList.esp -> import -> Merged List...
- Close Wrye Mash
- You're ready to play... at least concerning Levelled lists heee.gif

Bjam
Wow, great work!

This is a huge improvement to the available Mash docs and general knowledge base. Once you get all these comments incorporated in a new doc I will try to offer more constructive feedback. Most of the things I noticed so far were already addressed by others.

Thank you for the great resource!

QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 11 2006, 02:11 AM)
Keeping Loot Items [Advanced Topic]
If you want to mostly delete a mod, but keep some loot, then you'll need a loot version of the mod. Some modders provide such mods. (If they don't then you'll need to use TESCS to extract the items that you want into a separate mod. Or you might put them into a merged loot mod.) If loot mod is just data (doesn't place anything into the game world), then you can just add the new mod and remove the old mod in the usual Mash way. If the loot mod does place objects in the game world (i.e. has cell records), then you would need to use a Mash updater. But I bet this situation is rare to non-existent.
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By far the easiest way to do this is with Enchanted Editor. You can do it in just a few mouse clicks once you get over being scared of it.

First, make a copy of the mod file. It may help to name it something like <mod_name>_items.esp just to keep track of it. I usually also add my initials to the beginning of the name so I can easily tell it's something I've modified.

Open the renamed mod in Enchanted Editor. Delete everything you don't want to keep. This is especially easy if you just want to keep weapons, but not much harder if you want to keep all items. Once you've got the mod open in Enchanted Editor, check the box next to everything EXCEPT the following:

* Armor Types
* Body Parts
* Clothing
* Enchantments
* Items Misc
* Spells
* Weapons

This is the list of stuff you want to keep. They should not be checked. Any other non-grey items should have a checkmark next to them.

Now click the "Delete Marked" button.

Save it.

Open Mash and checkmark the new mod. Uncheck the old mod.

Use Mash "Repair Refs" on a copy of your save game to prevent doubling (since you just removed a lot of stuff referenced in your save game).

Load the game and test to see if you get any warnings.

The only complication here is if any of the items you kept have scripts attached to them. If so, you can either remove the script references from those items (in Enchanted Editor or the CS), or you can just leave those scripts in the mod.
Thank you to those who responded. smile.gif I made some edits to try to incorporate comments when I understood them, and left things the way they were when I didn't, rather than mangle the text even more before I had a grasp on the issues.

Wrye, thank you very much for stopping by the thread.

I see that several people commented that WryeMash can be used to set load order. Indeed, that is what I use it FOR, in addition of course to preventing doubling. If the document doesn't make that clear, I should emphasize it more. I think I initially focused in my first post on using other utilities to set load order, because there had been questions about how to do that.

As you remark, and as the readme states, you would indeed have to turn off "lock times" to update the load order. (Oh drat, I wrote "lock load order" instead of "lock times." Another edit . . . )

From the readme: Note: If you want to use a non-Mash load ordering utility, you'll first need to turn off "Lock Times". When you're finished with the external ordering utility, turn Lock Times back on. It will reset to use the times set by the other utility.

But this is what I don't understand. How precisely does this work? The sentence implies there is a way to either export the load times from an external utility or import the load times via Mash. Otherwise, there would be no need to unlock times. If Utility A generates a list that says load Mods 1, 2, and 3, in the order 3, 2, 1, one could of course reorder those mods in Mash by hand without needing to turn off lock times--one would just enter new times for those mods and save the updated times. So I am assuming (possibly incorrectly) that there is another possible way of doing this, and that's what I was trying to address. Again, I haven't worked with programs other than TESTools, TESAME, and Mash, so I don't know (my computer freaks at the mere thought of Java). If anyone has any thoughts on this, they'd be appreciated.

I wondered why everyone was discussing keeping loot and then I realized it was because of my discussion of removers and safe cells. If that function seems one that's perhaps not frequently used or quite advanced, there's no need to go into it in detail. Getting the basic functions down in a clear way would be sufficient for people who have questions on the forums.



As far as I understand, "Lock Times" is an utility to prevent involuntary date changes by external tools, say TESTool. You can still change the dates, but once you recall to Wrye Mash it resets the dates to what it had stored. There is no need to unlock times when you modify plug-in dates from Wrye Mash, because it (I might be wrong on this) modifies directly the lists used to recall the dates.
QUOTE(Sleawer @ Mar 11 2006, 05:48 PM)
As far as I understand, "Lock Times" is an utility to prevent involuntary date changes by external tools, say TESTool. You can still change the dates, but once you recall to Wrye Mash it resets the dates to what it had stored. There is no need to unlock times when you modify plug-in dates from Wrye Mash, because it (I might be wrong on this) modifies directly the lists used to recall the dates.
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That's correct. You don't need to unlock the times to modify a time/date stamp in WryeMash--you simply change the date and time and press save. smile.gif That's what's so easy about it.

And you are right that one of the benefits of lock times is that WryeMash will then automatically update times. For example, if I am working on a mod, the time and date of the mod changes every time I work on it. If i want to test it out, if I have "lock times" checked in WryeMash, Wrye will return the mod to its original position in my load list, rather than placing it last(ish) in the list (as it would likely be since it's the last thing I've worked on--although of course one can put future dates and times on mods in WryeMash.) I just used this today--I wanted to tweak an armor mod I use and adjust the stats of the armor. I did that in the CS, cleaned it with TESTools, and loaded Mash. Because I have lock times checked, Mash returned the armor mod to its usual place in my load order. fing34.gif

Perhaps my question still isn't clear. It is a simple one: Is there a way to import the information from an external reordering utility into Mash?

As I said before, when I read the readme, I was under the impression that there was a way of doing this. If there were not, and one had to copy the load order from the external ordering utility into Mash by hand, it would seem there would not be any reason to unlock times, and then relock them. But perhaps I'm overinterpreting the readme, and there is another reason behind unlocking times. smile.gif

I don't want to lose sight of the big picture--Mash can put your mods in order, but some people feel more comfortable doing it another way. The question is about the way to coordinate the way they've been doing it with Mash. biggrin.gif
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 12 2006, 08:46 AM)
Perhaps my question still isn't clear.  It is a simple one: Is there a way to import the information from an external reordering utility into Mash? 

As I said before, when I read the readme, I was under the impression that there was a way of doing this.  If there were not, and one had to copy the load order from the external ordering utility into Mash by hand, it would seem there would not be any reason to unlock times, and then relock them.  But perhaps I'm overinterpreting the readme, and there is another reason behind unlocking times.  smile.gif
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You need to unlock times in the case where you actually want to use the other ordering utility. If I leave the lock times on, then use some other reordering utility, as soon as I go back to Mash it'll ignore the changes made by the reordering utility (since it's changing the dates).

So no need to import or copy settings, simply unlock times, mess with the load order as you like, then lock times to lock in the new changes.
I'm not quite sure of what do you mean, are you asking if it's posible to import plug-in dates between different tools for load order purposes?

If that's the case, I don't think there is any need to overcomplicate things. Dates are stored in the plug-in files themselves, so independently of the tool used to reorder them, they will retain those dates until you modify them again.

What Wrye Mash "Lock Times" does is to provide the user a security measure to prevent any outside change in the dates, really. Once dates are set, it won't matter if you load those plug-ins in a hundred different tools, the dates will be the same.


Hmm, I feel a bit silly, either the question was too simple or I failed to understand you again. Perhaps you meant to say if it's possible to import the load list (in load order) to plain text? It is possible with Wrye Mash.

Edit: One thing to note is that Mash can't handle dates greater than January 19, 2038. So if you reorder your load list with TESTool and set some dates above that number, when loaded with Wrye Mash those 'greater' dates will be reset by Mash, even without "Lock Times" checked.
Load order of esps is determined strictly by their Modified date -- oldest loads first, newest loads last. All utilities that change load order do so by altering the modification date.

Mash's mechanics are pretty much as Sleawer stated... When you turn on Lock Times, Mash starts memorizing the modification date of all mods (saving the list of correct times to the settings.pkl file). Then, whenever you bring the mash window to the front, a little function runs, which checks all mods to make sure that their modification date matches the memorized value. If it doesn't match, Mash resets the file's modification date to the value memorized earlier by Mash.

If you turn Lock Times off, Mash quits doing the date reset AND it throws away the list of memorized modification dates. So, if you later turn Lock Times back on, it again gets the current set of modification dates -- i.e., the modification dates as set by the external reordering program.

So, Mash doesn't have to do anything special to import dates from e.g., TesTool -- it just reads the modification dates from the file system.

Of course, all of this is way to complicated to explain a help document!
I understood the last entry just fine, Wrye. Take that text and rework it a bit for the readme, and it will remain clear for others.

lightbulb.gif
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 11 2006, 10:20 PM)
. . . Of course, all of this is way to complicated to explain a help document!
Yep. 932.gif Focusing on the theory behind something or the technology that solves the problem does not lead to a useful guide. That comes from focusing on the operations to be performed in a logical and concise step-wise sequence.
We'll get there.
Hello,
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 10 2006, 08:47 PM)
Edit 3/11:  Took out the questions asking if I was right when people said I was.  tongue.gif  Attempted to add something about Merged objects pursuant to Wrye's comments. 

I do think I see why the MergedObjects issue could be an annoyance, although I haven't ever used TESTools to create a MergedObjects.esp.  After reading bjam's post about MergedObjects, it would seem that you would want your merged objects list (assuming you don't have full knowledge of what's going to be merged) to be synced to a load order that is the same as the load order you ultimately plan to play with.  That would require you to generate the same load order in two different utilities: TESTools and Mash, right?  That seems like a pain to me.  bonk.gif  But perhaps there's yet another issue I'm not quite understanding here that either simplifies or complicates things.  biggrin.gif  How do others handle this?

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Merging Objects is most of time a very good thing:
For example, you have a mod that modifies Spell Effects Stat (in TESCS -> Gameplay -> Magic Effects: change base cost), another one (four in fact) that modifies spell visual effects (in TESCS -> Gameplay -> Magic Effects: Casting Effects, Bolt Effects, Hit Effects, Area Effects) and a third one that modifies Spell glowing on clothes (all the No-Glow mods) (in TESCS -> Gameplay -> Magic Effects: Lightning Effect -> Change RGB value):
If you use this three mods, you'll get only one of the modifications that will be taken into account if you don't merge objects, it will be the modifications due to the mod that is loaded last.
If you merge objects of the three mods, you'll get Magic Effects that have modified stat, visual enhancement, and you can get rid off this horrible enchantement glowing effect. smile.gif

The merged objects & merged leveled lists mods both must be make and synchronised with the mods that you use in your game.
You can have different save for different character at the same time, but if you have different mods lists for each character, you'll need to make a new merged objects and merged leveled lists for each character.

You don't have to "generate load order", it is "auto-generated" in Morrowind.ini:
- when you change the "modified date" of the mods, you change the order that Morrowind use to load the mods
The most recent mods are loaded last, and if there are conflict between two mods, the most recent informations are loaded while the older are discarded.
- when you open Morrowind Launcher or TesTool or Wrye Mash, the active mods lists that is loaded is taken from Morrowind.ini.
when you check a box near the mod name in one of those three software, you edit exactly the same part of Morrowind.ini to write the name of the mods that you've chosen to be active

So you don't have anything more to do than this:
- Launch Wrye Mash
- Reorder your mod list (edit the box "last modified...")
- Lock Time of mods (Not useful to Merge objects, but useful to be sure to keep a clean save tongue.gif )
- Close Wrye Mash -> When you do this, Wrye Mash modify Morrowind.ini
QUOTE
[Game Files]
GameFile0=Morrowind.esm
GameFile1=Tribunal.esm
GameFile2=Bloodmoon.esm
....

And it writes every mods that you've selected.

- Launch TesTool
[If you are like me and have more than one Morrowind & TesTool installation (install TesTool in each Morrowind directory):
- You've got a message:
"Morrowind.ini has been found in the current folder
[Morrowind current path]
Do you want to use this folder instead of registry settings?"
- Click -> yes
It allows you use Morrowind.ini directly where you've installed TesTool instead of the default installation stored in the Registry Settings of Windows]

-> TesTool loads active mods list, you can verify it: click on "Manage Active plug-ins" -> Execute
You see the list of the esm/esp that are in your Data Files, and those that have been checked Active with Wrye Mash are also Checked Active in TesTool because TesTool loads the information that Wrye Mash has stored in Morrowind.ini.

- Select "Merge Objects for Active Plug-ins"
- Click -> Execute
- TesTool creates a plug-in "Merged_Objects.esp"
- Close TesTool
- Launch Wrye Mash
- Change Merged_objects.esp date to put it at the end of your mod list
- Copy "Mashed_Lists.esp" from \Mopy\Extras in \Data Files
- in Wrye Mash, select "Mashed Lists.esp" -> right click -> import -> Merge Lists...

Now you have:
QUOTE
[Game Files]
GameFile0=Morrowind.esm
GameFile1=Tribunal.esm
GameFile2=Bloodmoon.esm
GameFile3=Mod1.esp
GameFile4=Mod2.esp
...
GameFilex=Modn.esp
GameFiley=Merge_Objects.esp
GameFilez=Mashed Lists.esp

And you're (nearly wink.gif tongue.gif ) ready to play. smile.gif

Bjam
Thanks all for the clarification on the external utility issue. Sleawer, the problem seems to have been that I imagined that THOSE worked in another way than they did. rolleyes.gif Of course, once you understand something it's a little hard to recreate just what your prior erroneous thinking, so I can't say exactly how I thought they worked, but it doesn't really matter--I've got it now.

bjam--nice concrete example of coordinating load order and merged objects using TESTools and Mash. I incorporated it in a much stripped-down version--thanks. biggrin.gif
I think that this conversation is diverging quite a bit from what's useful for the topic: providing extended "how to instructions" for Wrye Mash. I would suggest:
1. List the topics of help "how tos" that you want to provide. E.g., "How to reorder your mods" in Wrye Mash. Obviously, these should be topics that either a) aren't already described in Mash, or b ) aren't described in a concise way (i.e., that aren't in the quick start section).
2. Write the how-tos for each topic. Other folks can comment, and I'll throw in comments as time permits.

Addressing step 1, Load Order and List Merging are already covered in Wrye Mash docs:
QUOTE
Maintain Your Load Order
- You only have to do this once...
- Go to Mods tab, right click on "File" column header and make sure that "Lock Times" is checked.
- For more information, see Load Order Maintenance.

Change Mod Load Order
- Go to mods tab, and select the mod you want to reorder.
- Edit the "Modified" date/time field to the date/time you want.
- Click Save.

Merging Leveled Lists
- Copy "Mashed Lists.esp" from the mopy\Extras folder to your Data Files folder.
- Select the mods you want to load from the Mods tab.
- Right click on "Mashed Lists.esp" in the Mods tab and select "Import: Merged Lists".
- For more information, see Import Merged Lists.

Also, regarding Jafre's installation problem... Was the problem with Mash's existing installation instructions? My bet would be that he did not tweak the shortcut as explained in Mash documentation. That documentation is pretty clear, and it's fairly prominent -- certainly anyone having installation problems should check it. But a lot of people won't. shrug.gif The best instructions in the world won't make a difference if users refuse to read them.

Going back to Ronin49's original list...
QUOTE
Outline to User's Guide:
1. Installation
2. * Monitoring Load Order and Maintaining Mod "Health" *
3. The Mash Levelled List
4. Cleaning Save Games
5. Reverting to Backed Up Save Games
6. Loading Masters

But,
QUOTE
Repairing a Save Game
- Go to the Saves tab and right click on the save game, then select "Repair All".
- For more information, see Repair Refs Command.

Adding/Removing Mods From a Save Game
- Go to Mods tab and check the mods that you want to use.
- Go to Saves tab and select the save game you want to play.
- Right click on the top of the Masters List, and select "Sync to Load List".
- Click "Save". The checkbox for the save game should turn blue.
- For more information, see Master List Updating.

So, I guess, I'm not clear on what's not clear from the Mash documentation. I think that the docs already cover all the basic operations with concise (quick start) instructions. Advanced topics (e.g., using ref replacers or removers are not covered in quick start. They could be, but the more stuff you add to quick start, the more complicated (and hence more intimidating it becomes). There's also a few topics that I don't cover because they're pretty much self-explanatory. E.g., Revert To Backup, and Repair Map, both of which do exactly what their names say.

Although I'm sympathetic to the idea of this project, I'm just not seeing yet how it improves on existing Mash documentation. (Perhaps it would help is someone stated fairly specifically how the current Mash docs are unclear. I.e., not an "I don't understand." comment, but an "Docs say X, but in fact I have to do X+Y." comment.
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 12 2006, 09:50 PM)
Although I'm sympathetic to the idea of this project, I'm just not seeing yet how it improves on existing Mash documentation. (Perhaps it would help is someone stated fairly specifically how the current Mash docs are unclear. I.e., not an "I don't understand." comment, but an "Docs say X, but in fact I have to do X+Y." comment.

Thanks for your comments, Wrye.

I really don't want to get into a discussion with you about the original documentation which is very professionally presented and extensive. Just to say that there are a lot of ongoing queries about Wrye Mash and apparently a number of experienced mod users somewhat reluctant to attempt its use. Seemed like another kick at it couldn't hurt any. shrug.gif

A little patience here might be a good thing. Everyone has lives and other priorities. I suggest we let Larissa Mem assimilate what she is learning from the comments, continue to make the edits and re-organization she needs to clear up the content and then presumably, start boiling it down into sharper focus and concise 'how-to' guidelines. I believe she was clear from the start that there is a learning curve and I hadn't noticed anyone else rushing forward to do this. Some things take time and one is trying to help here.

To me that was clear from the outset. I suggest we give it awhile before we start summing it up. That OK with you, Wrye? We really would appreciate your help but some patience with the process would also be appreciated. Thanks.
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 12 2006, 08:50 PM)
Although I'm sympathetic to the idea of this project, I'm just not seeing yet how it improves on existing Mash documentation. (Perhaps it would help is someone stated fairly specifically how the current Mash docs are unclear. I.e., not an "I don't understand." comment, but an "Docs say X, but in fact I have to do X+Y." comment.
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Wrye,

I'm a devout fan of Mash. However, it's not a very friendly app and the standard docs don't help much.

The biggest issue with Mash usability IMHO is that the user interface and documentation both assume a fairly advanced Windows user.

Most people are not used to using right-click techniques, which Mash relies on exclusively, even where a standard menu item or obvious screen button would be more appropriate.

This doc project seems like a good way to overcome the problem since the only other solution would be to redesign the user inteface.

I think this project can dramatically improve on the current docs by NOT being as brief as your procedure lists.

I think Larissa Mem is on the right track by trying to provide MORE detail than the standard docs. As long as things are explained clearly, more detail is okay.


QUOTE
The biggest issue with Mash usability IMHO is that the user interface and documentation both assume a fairly advanced Windows user.


Very true

biggrin.gif
Right menu click is an advanced technique??? Seems pretty basic to me, but shrug.gif okay... Anyway, I've made my point.
Jafre, there are some things that you could try to locate the source of your problem.

First you must have installed the programs specified in Mash docs. One way to find if you have a Python interpreter installed is to open a command prompt and write "Python"*, if it's installed you will get a response telling you its version and some useful commands.

If as Wrye suggest it's a problem of not setting properly the path in the shortcut, Wrye Mash shortcut should lack of the green tag icon. You can then try to set the path properly by right-clicking on its properties.

Failing that, you also can run Wrye Mash through the "Mash.py" green snake icon, it loads directly into wPython.exe and should run Wrye Mash in two windows, a DOS-like window and the actual Wrye Mash GUI. The reason for having a second shortcut is a little performance boost.

Hope that helped.


* (depending on your settings you'll have to find the proper folder, after all it's a DOS navigation system window)
QUOTE
Failing that, you also can run Wrye Mash through the "Mash.py" green snake icon, it loads directly into wPython.exe and should run Wrye Mash in two windows, a DOS-like window and the actual Wrye Mash GUI. The reason for having a second shortcut is a little performance boost.


This is what I do since I couldnt get the other method to work.

biggrin.gif
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 12 2006, 08:50 PM)
Also, regarding Jafre's installation problem... Was the problem with Mash's existing installation instructions? My bet would be that he did not tweak the shortcut as explained in Mash documentation. That documentation is pretty clear, and it's fairly prominent -- certainly anyone having installation problems should check it. But a lot of people won't. shrug.gif The best instructions in the world won't make a difference if users refuse to read them.
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Actually, I do not have a problem. My purpose was to point out the lack of easy to understand documentation at a certain point.

QUOTE(Sleawer @ Mar 13 2006, 06:01 AM)
Jafre, there are some things that you could try to locate the source of your problem.

First you must have installed the programs specified in Mash docs. One way to find if you have a Python interpreter installed is to open a command prompt and write "Python"*, if it's installed you will get a response telling you its version and some useful commands.

If as Wrye suggest it's a problem of not setting properly the path in the shortcut, Wrye Mash shortcut should lack of the green tag icon. You can then try to set the path properly by right-clicking on its properties.

Failing that, you also can run Wrye Mash through the "Mash.py" green snake icon, it loads directly into wPython.exe and should run Wrye Mash in two windows, a DOS-like window and the actual Wrye Mash GUI. The reason for having a second shortcut is a little performance boost.

Hope that helped.
* (depending on your settings you'll have to find the proper folder, after all it's a DOS navigation system window)
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Both Python and wxPython were installed as per the documentation in the correct flavors. read.gif I did _not_ correct the shortcut, hence the problem. blush2.gif I am a computer programmer and was looking at Mash to do a simple task I already had a solution for, and got frustrated at the documentation enough to say "I'll play with this later..." and return to Horatio's "Morrowind Leveled List Merger v1.14" so that I could get on with playing. user.gif

My comment was strictly to point out an area where the documentation could be made easier to read, not to present 'my problem'. Unfortunately, I was not clear enough and chopped off Ronin49's end quote making my post difficult to understand. huh.gif
Sorry Jafre--as with any bulletin board, your post stays up indefinitely, and people may respond long after you've moved on or gotten an answer. We are all just trying to be EXTRA! HELPFUL!! biggrin.gif

I have of course been following the discussions in this thread, and believe I understand the issues and concerns. But I do think the best thing for me to do at the moment is devote the time I can spare for this to improving the draft as much as I am able to, and then assessing how useful it may turn out to be. I realize that the core section in particular is quite mangled and needs an overhaul.

My time at the moment means that I won't be able to do so until later in the week, so I suppose this is just a post to say, "I'm still alive, I'll continue tweaking and editing later." biggrin.gif

However, if anyone does feel moved to address the question of how best to manage savegames for two (or multiple) characters using Mash, I would be quite interested to hear it. bjam, do you solve this by having more than one MW installation? It seems to me from playing around with my own mod list this morning that if you synced all saves to a load list that included mods for both characters (even mods you had no intention of using for one of the characters), you would be fine--that is, you would just check off Mods A, E, and F to play character 1, and Mods B, C, and D to play character 2. Er . . . except that doesn't take into account the merged lists.

Again, I have the most difficulty writing about things with which I have little personal experience--nothing ever gets into my levelled list so I have no idea if the calculation is thrown off if mods used in the calculation are not present. For MergedObjects I would think it should be okay. shrug.gif I don't know about levelled lists. (I'll stop before I begin ranting about the single mod that introduced levelled loot that I used.)

And again, this may be an issue that turns out to be too complicated to make it into introductory notes . . .

I appreciate all the contributions, so thanks once more to all.

Right click for secret information about this thread poke2.gif

biggrin.gif
QUOTE(_Bonk_ @ Mar 13 2006, 01:22 PM)
Right click for secret information about this thread  poke2.gif

biggrin.gif
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Oh my gosh, I am SO gullible! jpshakehead.gif
Hooray! What a Great Idea and Thing you are all doing!

I've been using Wrye Mash for years and have never gone past the most basic basics of the program, mainly because it seemed so complicated and also, I didn't feel the need to do so as it allowed me to continue playing without haveing to delve into it any deeper. I like the simple one/two click fix, go an play type thing. Thanks Wrye wherever you are! You have my heartfelt thanks for a easy to use program!

This idea and approach you people are taking to helping the common (normal person that doesn't pry apart the workings of Morrowind CS nor into building and constructing mods) person; but, more into just playing the game and as per your remark above, I for one greatly, "appreciate" everybodies help.

This kind of help should be extremely benificial and exceptionally well received by all, and, (speaking for myself as a commoner) appraise the fact that you are undertaking such an undertaking. I offer my thanks to you and all who help on this project.

Perhaps this reply is out of context as you were really asking for "peer" input in order to write a deeper understanding of this wonderful program and not to answer questions from some dummy on its' functions.

(Maybe there's a guide book on Dummies for Dummies) This would be ideal for me as I couldn't even tell time until I was 16. Don't laugh! I still don't know what happened to the five apples and have yet to find someone that can explain their dissapearance to me.

I do have a question concerning The Wrye Mash program. I have been rather reluctant to upgrade to a newer version, (mainly because the older version works) and the other reason, because I couldn't find any instructions on uninstall/install/delete/overwrite etc. for upgrading to a newer one.

My past experience shows that doing an uninstal/install wrong, can lead to more problems and really mess things up. As the program was doing it's thing and allowing me to continue playing. I simply decided not to mess things up.

I would: however, like to know the "proper procedure" for installing a newer version over an old, as the version of Wrye Mash I now have is something like .47 and there is now a version .63. Also there is a caution against using this version, and I would like to know if anyone using this version has actually been haveing any problems with it?

Anyway I appreciate what everyone is trying to do.

Thanks
I saw your question in the other thread. smile.gif The person who answered said that you can just install the new version of WryeMash over your old version. If you think back to the first time you installed Mash, you probably used a decompression utility (like WinZip) to unsquish the file and put it into your Morrowind folder. You want to repeat the same thing again now. The only thing that person added was that you might keep a copy of the old Mash program around in case you decide you don't like the new version, and you want to go back to the old program. Do you still have the old version somewhere on your hard drive (not installed in the Morrowind part of your computer)?

Anyway, to put in the new version, double-check that you have the right programs to run 0.60 or 0.63. I don't know if they are the same as for the older version you are using. Someone probably knows--their names are Python 2.4.1 and wxPython 2.5.3.1 ANSI. If you don't have them, you will need to put them on your computer, but I am going to act for now like they are there.

Next, download from Wrye's website the version of WryeMash that you want to use. Click on it, and your computer will probably help you by asking you where you want it to go. Say that you want it to go into your Morrowind file. That's probably in the part of your computer that has all your Programs, and inside that part there is a part that says Bethesda Softworks and inside that, there is your Morrowind folder. Tell your computer to put WryeMash there and it will take the place of the older version of WryeMash that is already there (according to the other person in the other thread.)

As for the question about 0.60 versus 0.63, you are right, there is a warning that 0.63 is a trial version. Some people have used it and say they have not found any problems. It is one of those decisions you will have to make for yourself, but other people can offer more opinions. Since I still use Mash for more basic things, I am probably going to stick with 0.60 for now.

I hope that helps some.
[quote=Larissa Mem,Mar 13 2006, 10:55 PM]
I saw your question in the other thread. smile.gif

Yeah! Larissa!
This Helps Loads. It's funny, but I couldn't figure out how to get back to that other thread. I got there in a round about way from another web site. It's just when I got on to this forum again that I couldn't find it: (I did mention that I was a dummy didn't I?)

I was afraid that if I just put it in my Morrowind folder that it would mess up the files that I'd already been working with or couldn't/wouldn't remember them or something and I'd have to start over from scratch. I got a lot of mods installed and thousands of hours with this present character and didn't want to do this at this time. Although I plan on getting me a new hard drive soon, (been eye-ballin one of those 500 GB drives) and figured I'd start everything new at that time anyway.

Yes I have both Wrye Mash versions .60 and .63. along with both python programs although the Python programs are already installed so I shouldn't have to do any changing with those. And Yes! I keep everything in a separate back-up folder too. If its as easy as stated then it shouldn't matter which version I install I could have fun playing yo-yo with them. Something I learned not do with mods.

By-the-way, If you happen to run into the person who was so helpful with my other post please let him/her know that I am really sorry that I didn't get to see it and that I thank them for trying to help me anyway.

And thank YOU, for helping me here!
so if you've got a save and you use Aduls_library_revised.esp I'd suggest not using the Repair All function. Doing that cleaned out everything in that cell in mod of importance (doors, npcs and the book chest). Now there may be a 'do not clean this mod' function, but if there is, I don't know how to use it

also, if you wanted to keep loot from a mod, but not the mod itself, wouldn't it just be easier to load the mod in enchanted editor and delete everything except for the 3Is? (items leveled, Items Miscellaneous and Ingredients) And then of course a certain script if it's attached to a weapon or other item and a global if it's attached to that script
Thanks for such an informative thread. :-)

I started using Wyre Mash about 3 weeks ago and its a great program. However Ive recently run into a problem. After a crash-to-desktop experience with morrowind, Wyre Mash now crashes when I start it. I followed instructions using command prompt to see the problem and I got this:

C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy>c:\python24\python.exe mash.py 0
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "mash.py", line 17, in ?
app = masher.MashApp(stdOutCode)
File "C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\wx-2.5.3-mswansi\wx\_core.py", line 5301,
in __init__
self._BootstrapApp()
File "C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\wx-2.5.3-mswansi\wx\_core.py", line 4980,
in _BootstrapApp
return _core_.PyApp__BootstrapApp(*args, **kwargs)
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\masher.py", line 2535
, in OnInit
self.InitData()
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\masher.py", line 2578
, in InitData
mosh.modInfos = mosh.ModInfos(os.path.join(mwDir,'Data Files'))
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\mosh.py", line 2676,
in __init__
FileInfos.__init__(self,dir,factory)
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\mosh.py", line 2393,
in __init__
self.table = Table(os.path.join(self.dir,'Mash','Table.pkl'))
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\mosh.py", line 262, i
n __init__
inData = cPickle.load(ins)
EOFError

I know as much python as I do aramaic, so Ive no idea how to rectify this whether it requires a simple script fix or perhaps one of the mods I use is causing a conflict, I havent the foggiest. Ive uninstalled and reinstalled python, deleted my mopy folder and then extracted the files again ..and again..

At the end of my rope ....Hope someone can help. Thanks
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 14 2006, 12:55 PM)
I saw your question in the other thread.  smile.gif  The person who answered said that you can just install the new version of WryeMash over your old version.  If you think back to the first time you installed Mash, you probably used a decompression utility (like WinZip) to unsquish the file and put it into your Morrowind folder.  You want to repeat the same thing again now.  The only thing that person added was that you might keep a copy of the old Mash program around in case you decide you don't like the new version, and you want to go back to the old program.  Do you still have the old version somewhere on your hard drive (not installed in the Morrowind part of your computer)? 

Anyway, to put in the new version, double-check that you have the right programs to run 0.60 or 0.63.  I don't know if they are the same as for the older version you are using.  Someone probably knows--their names are Python 2.4.1 and wxPython 2.5.3.1 ANSI.  If you don't have them, you will need to put them on your computer, but I am going to act for now like they are there.

Next, download from Wrye's website the version of WryeMash that you want to use.  Click on it, and your computer will probably help you by asking you where you want it to go.  Say that you want it to go into your Morrowind file.  That's probably in the part of your computer that has all your Programs, and inside that part there is a part that says Bethesda Softworks and inside that, there is your Morrowind folder.  Tell your computer to put WryeMash there and it will take the place of the older version of WryeMash that is already there (according to the other person in the other thread.) 

As for the question about 0.60 versus 0.63, you are right, there is a warning that 0.63 is a trial version.  Some people have used it and say they have not found any problems.  It is one of those decisions you will have to make for yourself, but other people can offer more opinions.  Since I still use Mash for more basic things, I am probably going to stick with 0.60 for now. 

I hope that helps some.
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Excellent answer.

"Other person"

Wrye,

This to me is what this thread is about. I couldn't have given this sort of detailed answer, and I doubt that you could have.
Yes, it is an excellent reply, Fergus. Thanks, Larissa Mem.
And ya know, not only has Wrye given us an outstanding utility that we are trying to learn to use better but he is the only utility maker that I know of who is still here on the forums, supporting people with their questions about it, including this thread. A little recognition of that might not go amiss.
So . . . maybe if we could all move forward in a co-operative way, that would be a good thing.932.gif

[Minor edit to opening post.]
I am now using Wrye Mash for managing my saves and adding and removing mods from my leveled lists and using TEStool to clean my mods and using TESPCD to look for conflicts.

I really think that Wrye Mash is a brilliant program and the creator should be given mad props. fing34.gif

biggrin.gif
OK, maybe I missed it - a newly installed mod with a yellow check box,
is the correct solution:
--> 'Masters'
--> 'File' RIGHT Click
--> LEFT Click 'Update'

That seemed to reset the mod and the master, in this case Morrowind, to the expected Green and Blue respectively. Looks good but I am slightly unsure what happened.
The mod .esp was updated to the master?


[N.B. I happen to agree with you, Bonk.]
Absolutely mad props! biggrin.gif I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't be trying to do this if I didn't want to help people use Mash, and as I would always answer (rightly or wrongly) the questions people sent in about Mash on the forums, I told Ronin49 about my Mash-question-answering-compulsion, and that's how this all got started. Anyhoo.

Re: repair all. I confess to tending to avoid it myself unless of course I've encountered doubling. I've had an ongoing issues with my journal which I have complained about sporadically in various places. As I think I now understand it from continual reading of the readme, journal entries are globals (?), and Mash would repair those? If you delete a mod, or a save file, will Mash clean your journal of entries that took place while you had that mod installed, and/or while you were using that save? The question is I think equivalent to claudekinnol's question.

claudekinnol, I had that happen to me when I removed ANOTHER mod to the stuff I had stored in Dongle's Caldera Warehouse Tower and then did a repair all. I assume (I should probably stop assuming--let's say my best guess) now is that what happened is that the containers in both mods were not unique containers. In fact I know from looking at Dongle's tower in the CS that the crates where I had all my stuff were just crate_01's and so forth. If the containers in other other house mod had the same IDs, wouldn't a repair all clean out all that stuff?

My understanding (again, perhaps incorrect) was that if I placed my Caldera Warehouse Tower on my safe cell list, and THEN repaired all, the stuff in the tower (which was not dependent on the mod I was removing--it was all from other mods in my game and just random ingredients, sword of white woe, etc.) would have stayed. But either 1) that's not how safe cell works or 2) it works that way, but I didn't do it right. That's what my question was about up above. If 2), do I need to put "Caldera, Warehouse Tower" or however it appears in the CS, along with quotes?

Whew. What else. Yes, Ronin49--yellow box, that's what I finally did to fix all my yellow mods. Took me forever to figure out (it helped that Wrye explained the general process above. biggrin.gif). I think it must be the same thing as that whole thing they tell you to do when you encounter the annoying message about master files having changed in your warnings.txt, of "load it in the CS, load the games' master files, and then resave, blah blah blah." Another example of how much easier life is with Mash, in my view--doing it in Mash took literally 1 second, loading the CS takes alone takes much more than that on my comp.

Edit: Fergus, thank you for being the other person. smile.gif Sorry, I meant to link to your post, but lost the link in the extensive process of looking up things and opening and closing various windows. wink.gif
Hello,
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 13 2006, 06:31 AM)
Right menu click is an advanced technique??? Seems pretty basic to me, but shrug.gif okay... Anyway, I've made my point.
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Well... It is not an advanced technique for a lot of people... But I know a few others who don't know anything else than double click. Sometimes it leads to really strange results. shrug.gif
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 13 2006, 07:16 PM)
However, if anyone does feel moved to address the question of how best to manage savegames for two (or multiple) characters using Mash, I would be quite interested to hear it.  bjam, do you solve this by having more than one MW installation?  It seems to me from playing around with my own mod list this morning that if you synced all saves to a load list that included mods for both characters (even mods you had no intention of using for one of the characters), you would be fine--that is, you would just check off Mods A, E, and F to play character 1, and Mods B, C, and D to play character 2.  Er . . . except that doesn't take into account the merged lists.
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I play with only one character at a time! tongue.gif
I'm nearly sure that you can have more than one character:

- Play with character 1
- use mod 11, 12, 13

- Play with character 2
- use mod 21, 22, 23

1 - Prepare games
- launch Wrye Mash
- check mods you want to use for character 1
- choose mods load order (change date)
- close Wrye Mash
- launch TesTool
- create "Merged_objects.esp"
- close TesTool
- Rename "Merged_objects.esp" to "Merged_objects1.esp"
- close TesTool
- launch Wrye Mash
- copy-paste "Mashed Lists.esp" from \Morrowind\Mopy\Extras to \Morrowind\Data Files
- Mashed Lists.esp -> right-click -> import -> Merged Lists...
- close Wrye Mash
- Rename it to "Mashed Lists1.esp"
You should do the previous things for the two games you want to play. The second time, replace each "1" with a "2"
2 - Begin to play
- launch Wrye Mash
- check all the mods for character 1
(mod11, mod12, mod13, Meged_objects1, Mashed Lists1)
- quit Wrye Mash, then launch Morrowind
- play, save (choose a name, then add a "1" at the beginning) and quit
- launch Wrye Mash
- check all the mods for character 2
(mod21, mod22, mod13, Meged_objects2, Mashed Lists2)
- quit Wrye Mash, then launch Morrowind
- play, save (choose a name, then add a "2" at the beginning) and quit
3 - Changing of character
a ) you were using character 1 and you want to use character 2
- launch Wrye Mash
- go to the save tab
- right-click on the save that you want to use (begin with a "2") -> Load master
- quit Wrye Mash
- launch game
b ) you were using character 2 and you want to use character 1
- well, you can try to do the same as above with changing the "2" to "1" and the "1" to "2" tongue.gif
- else, you can keep playing with character 2 laugh.gif
4 - Changing mods lists for a character
a ) character 1
- launch Wrye Mash
- select save tab
- choose the save for which you want to change mods lists
- right-click -> Load master
- add / remove mods
QUOTE
Adding/Removing Mods From a Save Game
- Go to Mods tab and check the mods that you want to use.
- Go to Saves tab and select the save game you want to play.
- Right click on the top of the Masters List, and select "Sync to Load List".
- Click "Save". The checkbox for the save game should turn blue.

- if it is needed, repair your save
- quit Wrye Mash
- play tongue.gif
b ) character 2
- same as above, but change every "1" to "2" tongue.gif
- No, there is no "1" above! smile.gif 24.gif
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 13 2006, 07:16 PM)
Again, I have the most difficulty writing about things with which I have little personal experience--nothing ever gets into my levelled list so I have no idea if the calculation is thrown off if mods used in the calculation are not present.  For MergedObjects I would think it should be okay.[right][snapback]4696282[/snapback][/right]

I think that there are different situation:
- Merged objects
I don't think it can be a problem if you remove a mod that was changing an object and keep the same Merged_objects.esp, but you'll keep the same stat for this object than before removing the mod (because informations about the object are stored in the mod AND in Merged_objects.esp)
- Merged Lists
Example:
lvllist1 is defined in Morrowind.esm.
It is also modified by mod1 and mod2, and mod1 add new creature type to this list.
You create Mashed Lists.esp with information from esm + mod1 + mod2.
Now, if you remove mod1, lvllist1 stored in Mashed Lists.esp still need the new creature added by mod1, and which are not still available.
Then, you have a problem:
"IDofcreature missing in Master Files"

QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Mar 14 2006, 07:13 PM)
OK, maybe I missed it - a newly installed mod with a yellow check box,
is the correct solution:
--> 'Masters'
--> 'File' RIGHT Click
--> LEFT Click 'Update'

That seemed to reset the mod and the master, in this case Morrowind, to the expected Green and Blue respectively. Looks good but I am slightly unsure what happened.
The mod .esp was updated to the master?
[N.B. I happen to agree with you, Bonk.]
[right][snapback]4719460[/snapback][/right]

QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 14 2006, 07:33 PM)
Whew.  What else.  Yes, Ronin49--yellow box, that's what I finally did to fix all my yellow mods.  Took me forever to figure out (it helped that Wrye explained the general process above.  biggrin.gif).  I think it must be the same thing as that whole thing they tell you to do when you encounter the annoying message about master files having changed in your warnings.txt, of "load it in the CS, load the games' master files, and then resave, blah blah blah."  Another example of how much easier life is with Mash, in my view--doing it in Mash took literally 1 second, loading the CS takes alone takes much more than that on my comp.
[right][snapback]4719877[/snapback][/right]

Yes, if you do this, you update the "header" of the esp, which is a small piece at the beginning of the esp which stores data like name and date of the esm which are needed. And by doing this, you remove " the annoying message about master files having changed in your warnings.txt".
To remove this message:
1 - Wrye Mash
- Click on the mod name
- Click in the "Masters" tab
- Click on save
2 - Launch TesTool
- Select "Manage Active Plug-ins"
- Select all the mods that need to be updated
- Click on "Update header"
3 - TESCS
No, you don't want to know how to do with the TESCS, because it can lead you to make a "dirty" mod.

Bjam
Edit: invert "above" and "1"
QUOTE(bjam @ Mar 14 2006, 04:35 PM)
1 - Wrye Mash
- Click on the mod name
- Click in the "Masters" tab
- Click on save . . .
Ummmmh . . .not quite. In this case, simply clicking on the 'Masters' box did not do it; had to click 'Update' scrolling down from 'Masters' as described above. Then it cleared, updated. Seems like nit-picking perhaps but it would be good to be precise with this. wink.gif
Machiavella: Mash stores data in several places. One of those is Data Files\Mash\Table.pkl. It looks like that file is corrupted on your computer. A Morrowind CTD should not cause this, though perhaps there's a more systematic problem like a hard disk failure, or some other problem with your file system. Simplest solution is to delete the Table.pkl file and try re-starting Mash. That should fix the problem, though you'll lose some information. (Memorized modification times, assigned updaters, group and rating information.)

Ronin49: Yellow Checkbox: As pointed out in Mash docs and earlier in this thread, Yellow means the master mod has changed since the mod/save was created. E.g., for mods, it means that the mod was built on an older version of a Bethesda Master. You can use Mash to update and make the yellow go away, but what I do is open up the mod in TESCS (while co-loading GMST Vaccine.esp to avoid GMST contamination), and then resave it.

Repair All: Should always be safe to use. I would suggest using it at least once in a while after adding/removing mods.

Journal entries are not globals. Encountered Journal entries affect the save game in two ways: INFO records and the JOUR record. Mash doesn't change either of those. If you remove a mod and then play the savegame, Morrowind will remove the associated INFO records, but will not clean the JOUR record. Which means that you'll still see the journal entries in the day by day journal.

Adul/Cleaning: First, there's a reason why Mash spits out a repair log when it cleans a mod. It's worth glancing over to see if it makes sense. If you're worried, you can always revert to backup. Second, if you play and see a problem, try using a revert to backup. Third, the described problem doesn't sound like Wrye Mash, but instead like innate mod conflict -- e.g., like CK is running another mod that adds stuff to the Revised Library cell. Innate mod conflict typically causes doors, npcs and other refs persists objects to disappear. (Chests are not usually refs persist, but I'll wager that the chest in Adul Library's is refs persist.) (BTW, Mash does have a facility to help deal with innate mod conflicts.)

The Safe Cell list is only used by the Ref Removers facility -- i.e., not by Repair All.

A commonly named container should not be any more likely to be removed than a non-unique reference. (In fact, if anything, it would be the other way around for reasons too technical to describe here.)

BJAM: I skimmed a bit, but all that looks correct. (I use the TESCS method to update older mods, but perhaps that's a little conservative.)

Click in Masters Tab: That's what I do. Could be that you you have to click on top of an item though rather than just anywhere in the masters box. (I can't test it at the moment.) (By "Master's Box," he's talking about the white list box where the masters actually appear, not the "File/Num" column header or the "Masters" label over the column header.
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 14 2006, 12:33 PM)
claudekinnol, I had that happen to me when I removed ANOTHER mod to the stuff I had stored in Dongle's Caldera Warehouse Tower and then did a repair all.  I assume (I should probably stop assuming--let's say my best guess) now is that what happened is that the containers in both mods were not unique containers.  In fact I know from looking at Dongle's tower in the CS that the crates where I had all my stuff were just crate_01's and so forth.  If the containers in other other house mod had the same IDs, wouldn't a repair all clean out all that stuff? 
[right][snapback]4719877[/snapback][/right]

they were all unique except maybe the guards. And the chest was definitely unique, as it had a script attached to it.
QUOTE(claudekennilol @ Mar 14 2006, 10:11 PM)
they were all unique except maybe the guards.  And the chest was definitely unique, as it had a script attached to it.
[right][snapback]4727272[/snapback][/right]

Well, that's quite irrelevant because I was entirely wrong. Did you see what Wrye posted?

QUOTE
Adul/Cleaning: First, there's a reason why Mash spits out a repair log when it cleans a mod. It's worth glancing over to see if it makes sense. If you're worried, you can always revert to backup. Second, if you play and see a problem, try using a revert to backup. Third, the described problem doesn't sound like Wrye Mash, but instead like innate mod conflict -- e.g., like CK is running another mod that adds stuff to the Revised Library cell. Innate mod conflict typically causes doors, npcs and other refs persists objects to disappear. (Chests are not usually refs persist, but I'll wager that the chest in Adul Library's is refs persist.) (BTW, Mash does have a facility to help deal with innate mod conflicts.)

I have substantial edits that I'm trying to enter today and in the next few days--in between forum shut-downs. If there's anything too subtle to see, I'll bold it so there's no need to reread a ton of text. I think that reducing the number of issues this document deals with rather than increasing them is wise.

Having said that, if there are other issues anyone wants addressed, it would be good to mention those now. One of some significance I haven't dealt with: texture replacers? Should I attempt to? There is a specific way to handle them in Mash. I avoid them (large-scale replacers, that is) for various reasons, but I know they are quite an important part of others' games.

This isn't meant to be an endless process. Nobody wants to end up producing something that's full of errors and is of no use, but Wrye and others have been extremely helpful and generous in devoting time to explaining and answering questions. I think the goal is to wrap it up quite soon in light of these responses. So . . . last call(ish?) for questions, issues, problems, etc.

By the way, remember that there is a separate Rel/Question thread for Mash. smile.gif
Hello,
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 15 2006, 02:38 AM)
BJAM: I skimmed a bit, but all that looks correct. (I use the TESCS method to update older mods, but perhaps that's a little conservative.)

QUOTE
You can use Mash to update and make the yellow go away, but what I do is open up the mod in TESCS (while co-loading GMST Vaccine.esp to avoid GMST contamination), and then resave it.

I prefer to avoid to talk about updating Master files with TESCS, because it can lead to a dirty mod. Most of the time, I only read "load in TESCS and save", which sometimes is good... but not always (I don't want to talk about the issue with loading / saving with TESCS and GMST contamination here).
I prefer to say "Use Mash", as I'm sure that you can't break anything if you try to update header with this tool. But, of course, using Mash or TESCS AND GMST Vaccine as you describe above does exactly the same thing (or also TESTool / update header).
QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Mar 14 2006, 11:19 PM)
Ummmmh  . . .not quite. In this case, simply clicking on the 'Masters' box did not do it; had to click 'Update' scrolling down from 'Masters' as described above. Then it cleared, updated. Seems like nit-picking perhaps but it would be good to be precise with this. wink.gif
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Thanks! It is not "nit-picking*" (well, it is maybe a little bit... tongue.gif ), we need to make things simple and easy if we want to be sure that everybody understand how to use Mash.
*Word Reference gave me a surprizing translation for this word. I originally thought that you meant "pointilleux" (Word Reference: fastidious, fuddy-duddy), and even if I had understood the global sense of the sentence, I didn't expected this translation. If some of you have got some time to spare:
- translate nit-picking
- retranslate word-by-word the result it gave to you
- Poor fly smile.gif biggrin.gif
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 15 2006, 02:38 AM)
Click in Masters Tab: That's what I do. Could be that you you have to click on top of an item though rather than just anywhere in the masters box. (I can't test it at the moment.) (By "Master's Box," he's talking about the white list box where the masters actually appear, not the "File/Num" column header or the "Masters" label over the column header.
[right][snapback]4725930[/snapback][/right]

Yes, exactly. Thank you to have clarify this for everybody here. smile.gif I'm sorry, I know that my english skills are sometimes not good enough to describe things really correctly. And it's even worse for "technical" problem... shrug.gif

Bjam
QUOTE(bjam @ Mar 15 2006, 06:38 PM)
Thanks! It is not "nit-picking*" (well, it is maybe a little bit... tongue.gif ), we need to make things simple and easy if we want to be sure that everybody understand how to use Mash.

I believe you can in fact do it either way, but I just rewrote instructions as per bjam/Wrye's comments. I think you can:

1. Click on mod.
2. Right click on bar above masters file names
3. Click update
4. Press Save

or

1. Click on mod.
2. Click INSIDE the masters' box
3. See a pop-up message that warns you that it will update it to the masters' list and that this could cause changes, press okay
4. Press save

I would prefer to describe it the first way, since that's analogous to how I describe the process in the saves part of the document. (There too there are two ways to update a save game, I think, after you have synced at least one game to your load list--by using sync to load or by using update.) But I'd want to make sure they are both the same. (Talk about nit-picky.)

QUOTE
*Word Reference gave me a surprizing translation for this word. I originally thought that you meant "pointilleux" (Word Reference: fastidious, fuddy-duddy), and even if I had understood the global sense of the sentence, I didn't expected this translation. If some of you have got some time to spare:
- translate nit-picking
- retranslate word-by-word the result it gave to you
- Poor fly smile.gif biggrin.gif

Well, that's because the phrase is expressive in English (I am trying not to say negative things about other languages here. wink.gif) It does mean fastidious, but it also literally comes from looking for the small eggs of parasite-type bugs. sad.gif
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 14 2006, 07:38 PM)
Adul/Cleaning: First, there's a reason why Mash spits out a repair log when it cleans a mod. It's worth glancing over to see if it makes sense. If you're worried, you can always revert to backup. Second, if you play and see a problem, try using a revert to backup. Third, the described problem doesn't sound like Wrye Mash, but instead like innate mod conflict -- e.g., like CK is running another mod that adds stuff to the Revised Library cell. Innate mod conflict typically causes doors, npcs and other refs persists objects to disappear. (Chests are not usually refs persist, but I'll wager that the chest in Adul Library's is refs persist.) (BTW, Mash does have a facility to help deal with innate mod conflicts.)
[right][snapback]4725930[/snapback][/right]

I believe that was it, thanks,
Update vs. Sync to Load List: The "Master List Updating" section of current Mash docs is a little misleading since it implies that all saves should be blue. In fact, green is also natural/normal so long as you don't attempt to play a green game. (I've detailed Blue vs. Green earlier in this topic.) So, this could be part of the source of confusion here.

In short, "Update" will at least make a save game green (and maybe blue, depending on masters and current load list). OTOH, "Sync to Load List" WILL make a save game blue. Sync to Load works by first doing an Update, and then deleteing/adding mods to the save game's master list so that the master list matches the load list.

There are times in which the user should NOT use sync to load list:
1) User doesn't want to match current load list. (Duh.)
2) User needs to adjust to a mod that's been renamed or updated. In this case: a) Use update. cool.gif Manually edit masters list, renaming mods as needed. c) [optional] Use sync to load list. d) save changes.

Exception to the exception... Mash is pretty good about handling mods that have been renamed. E.g., if you use Mash to rename a mod, Mash remembers that. If you then Update a save that depends on the mod that's been renamed, Mash will remember the rename and apply it during the Update process.

Update on click inside the masters box is a convenience short cut. For beginners, it's better to start by talking about the "Sync to Load List" option on the column context menu. (As LM said.)
QUOTE(Wrye @ Mar 16 2006, 06:57 PM)
Update vs. Sync to Load List: The "Master List Updating" section of current Mash docs is a little misleading since it implies that all saves should be blue. In fact, green is also natural/normal so long as you don't attempt to play a green game. (I've detailed Blue vs. Green earlier in this topic.) So, this could be part of the source of confusion here.

I don't believe that the blue/green issue is confusing since you clarified it. I addressed it above in the updated substantive posts and had assumed that you'd been reading those--but of course it's a huge hassle to go back and go over those. I'll cull those for remaining questions and append them to the final posts, which makes more sense.

Okay, I worked my way through the remarks about updating. I think I understand them. I'll change the instructions about updating to return to the syncing to load process.

Questions from above thread:

1. I understand that Mash is the only program that will cleaned saves for you, is that correct? I know about DinkumThinkum's "How to Deep Clean a Save Game" process, but that's not precisely the same thing. I don't want to say only if it's not the only one . . . although I would still use a positive adjective. smile.gif

2. This is the new section about mod colors, revised after a more careful reading of the readme and a lot of experimenting with Mash: "Check all the mods you want to be active (that is, check all the mods you want to play.) Now, examine the colors of the checkboxes of your mods. You need to make sure the mods are in good shape. WryeMash uses a color-coding sytem to let you know what the "health" of your mods and your save-games is. If any mods
are showing red or pinky-orange, it's because there are two or more mods that have the very same date and time of creation. Since we're trying to make a clear order for the mods to go in, having mods that load at the exact same time is no good. Mash will highlight mods like this for you and ask you to fix them. It's easy to change the time Mash thinks a mod was created by typing a new time in one of the boxes to the right of the mod, and then going down below that box to click save. (This part of the Mash menu, where the Mod or Save name, time, and Masters list is displayed, is called the "details" box.)

Voila--the mods should turn a healthy green. If the mod is yellow, that means that the mod (or another mod it depends on [?]) was created using a different version of Morrowind than the one you are using. For example, the mod-maker only had Morrowind, and you have GOTY. [Okay, do I _finally_ have this right? Or does it have to do with what version of each of the master .esms you have (which patch, etc.?) (Or something else entirely?]


3. Overall revision on Section 4--cleaning save games. Too many to mention. Do I have it correct though that even if you do have green saves, you should not save blue saves in those slots? Also, is there a way to sync more than one save to the load list and repair it, or does one need to go save by save by save?

4. Reverting to Backup, Duplicating, and Snapshot, again. Okay, I understand all of these but snapshot. I take it that snapshot records the condition of your mods during a single time-slice. At T1 the mod is red, say, at T2 it's green, and T3 it might be gone.

Does snapshot apply to saves, however? As far as I can tell it appliees to mods only, but I may not have that right.

Thanks once more for all the help. smile.gif
As I posted a couple of sections back, I don't think that it's worth my time to edit a document of something that's already well documented in mash. (Time is limited and I'm a slow writer/editor. That's why I wanted a list of topics and a description of how things are not being covered well. Ronin stepped in to "cool things down," I guess, but I still haven't seen such a list.)

So here, I'm pretty much just concerned with stuff that's not covered in Mash docs, or that is commonly misunderstood, etc.

QUOTE
I understand that Mash is the only program that will cleaned saves for you, is that correct?

Yes. Especially since "will clean saves for you" implies automation. You can use EE to do some cleaning, but it's certainly not automatic. Of course, Mash does a lot more than just clean save games, and in some of those areas, there's more competition. E.g., several tools other than mash allow dialog export/import.

Snapshots: Dang. I forget, can you take snapshots of saves? (I don't have Mash handy at the moment.) I think so, but I never used the feature (except maybe to test.) Suppose that you usually stick with one savegame (unwise, but suppose you did). You might take a snapshot every week just as an extreme backup possibility. E.g., suppose that you find out months after starting to use a mod, that you can't remove it -- but now you need to. If you were taking save regularly, you could retrieve a snapshot copy of the save taken before you started using the mod.
Thank you for those very helpful answers. Again, your help is very much appreciated, as I realize this is not something you want to spend your time on.

I did not mean to imply I wanted you to review the document. On the contrary, the purpose of the last post was to highlight individual questions that remain unclear to me from the readme. (I see the post was still wordy--apologies.)

- Can you update and/or sync to load multiple saves at one time?

I do not see this specifically addressed in the readme. I have attempted syncing one game to the load list, shift-clicking to highlight all remaining saves, and clicking update. This merely updates one save (the clicked-on save). Obviously, it would be far easier to be able to sync ALL saves to a load list at one time rather than having to do it for each one. Same with repair all. I may keep 10-20 saves going at a time.

There should be no need for you to answer questions having more to do with the Morrowind game engine in general than with WryeMash, so I will pursue answers to those elsewhere.

Thanks once more.
Can you update and/or sync to load multiple saves at one time?

No. Mostly because it's poor practice to be that casual about "Sync To Load". The better practice is to only sync the saves that you're about to play. (And as I've said before, an even safer practice is to duplicate the save you want to play and then sync the duplicated save.)

OTOH, Mash does allow experienced users to Update (not Sync) saves with relative ease. Again, I would discourage overdoing this, but sometimes it's desirable (e.g., after updating a merge esp that a bunch of mods depend on), and compared to Sync to Load, it's much less likely to do something undesirable.

(Relatively) Quick Update (Experienced Users Only):
* Click on any master in the masters list box. If this pop ups a confirmation dialog, then click the checkmark to prevent the confirmation from showing next time.
* Do a quick scroll/scan of the masters.
* Click Save.
Note I would not advise a newbie to do this, because they might accidentally click in the masters box and then not have a clue as to why "Save" is suddenly available and what the dangers of clicking in it are. Also, only an experienced user would know how carefully they need to scroll/scan the master list before clicking save.
Hello,

Just a small bump for a very useful topic.

Bjam
QUOTE(bjam @ Apr 8 2006, 05:37 AM) [snapback]5474114[/snapback]
Just a small bump for a very useful topic.

Thanks, bjam. Might even get around to finishing it some day . . . shrug.gif
WAAAHOOOOOOOOOO!!! I'm bookmarking this thread so I can refer back to it constantly. Once I get the dern shortcut to load properly. I've messed with my target arguments so often I haven't the slightest idea where anything is anymore. :/ But this is a gem. Thanks for putting this up, Ronin and Larissa!
QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Apr 22 2006, 07:59 PM) [snapback]5884323[/snapback]

Thanks, bjam. Might even get around to finishing it some day . . . shrug.gif

Yes. All hope is not lost. wink.gif In the meantime glad to hear the informal version has been of some help to some people. smile.gif

I'm adding in a to-do list cribbed from a thread about reinstalling MW, Tribunal, BM and mods afresh based on this thread containing advice from manooly and other mod users and makers, along with some heavy edits from bjam plus a few small edits of my own. When WryeMash is needed, it appears in BOLD:


1 - Unistall the existing game/MODs

2- Reinstall Morrowind, Tribunal and Bloodmoon

3 - Install Better Bodies / Better Heads

4 - Install face replacers (changingfacesnpcreplacerupdate.7z, and add-on)

5- Install all of texture replacers MODs (Ultimate Textures-Complete, flask replacers, silverware replacer, weapons,armor replacers, clothing/robe replacers, illuminated windows, book jackets, etc.)

6 - Install clothing replacers (better clothes, Ultimate_Textures_-_Clothing.7z)

7 - Install the larger MODs (Morrowind Comes Alive, Sound enhancers)

8 - Install Official plugins

9 - Install new quests - (White Wolf, AndromacheInstaller.zip, etc)

10 - Install extras (barabusfireplaces2.zip, bobs_armory.rar, carnithusarmamentariumcomplete.zip, horseranch31full.rar, marksmanmodversion1_45.rar, etc.)

11 - Install playable faces

12 - Check for conflict between mods with TESPCD

13 - a - Lauch Wrye Mash and synchronize the mod with the master files

b - or update header with Tes Tool

14 - use TESTool, TESAME, or the Enchanted Editor to clean mods of GMSTs and dirty references; a link to the list of mods that perhaps should not be cleaned with TesTool appears at the beginning of this thread (read to end of thread and/or take with grain of salt)

15 - if this has not yet been done, check mods to be played via TesTool, Wrye Mash , TESTool, [MWDatafiles screen, or TESCS?]

16 - arrange load order using "reorderPlugins.zip", reOrder Mods [ck name??? smile.gif I have a mental block here!], TESTool, or Wrye Mash

17 - a - Run TESTool to merge levelled lists and objects (not dialogue, as it, unfortunately, usually breaks more things than it repairs), or

b - Run TESTool to merge objects and then merge your Leveled lists with Wrye Mash

18 - Lauch Wrye Mash and (if not already done in step 16 or 17) Lock Times -> It will be very useful if you decide to add / remove some mods later in your game;

19 - Run Morrowind FPS Optimizer.v1.96.zip in background

20 - Start new game.

This could probably use some more tweaking, but perhaps it will be more helpful than the outline in the second post for some users. smile.gif
I have one question that I am unclear on despite documentation and this thread (ok, so I'm a blockhead, duh :) ). Once you've used Wrye Mash to clean up & fix stuff, must Morrowind be started ("launched", "run" whatever) only from the button in Wrye Mash or can the regular Morrowind launcher be used?


Hello,
QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Apr 23 2006, 01:59 AM) [snapback]5884323[/snapback]

Thanks, bjam. Might even get around to finishing it some day . . . shrug.gif

I've got some work that I need to finish too. smile.gif
QUOTE(blockhead @ Apr 30 2006, 01:18 AM) [snapback]6045710[/snapback]

I have one question that I am unclear on despite documentation and this thread (ok, so I'm a blockhead, duh smile.gif ). Once you've used Wrye Mash to clean up & fix stuff, must Morrowind be started ("launched", "run" whatever) only from the button in Wrye Mash or can the regular Morrowind launcher be used?

You can launch Morrowind with any launcher you want. However, if you use Morrowind Launcher to start Morrowind ('Play' button), you must avoid to click on 'Data Files' (just under 'Play') to change your mods list.

Bjam
Bump - shame to let this fall back this far, really...
I hope this get finished as it has been much needed.
Thanks, Faylynn. It will get done (it's just in line behind several other MW and real-life projects) in some hopefully more-or-less useful form (almost accidentally typed "useless" rolleyes.gif) . . . meanwhile perhaps it should get a little nudge in case it's useful to anyone. shrug.gif
Baron Of Hell
Greatest topic of the day. Yeah forums.
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Jun 11 2006, 06:59 AM) [snapback]6785397[/snapback]
Thanks, Faylynn. It will get done . . . .

Back up then, so's it does not get more lost meanwhile . . .


I liked the notion "more-or-less useless form" 24.gif
Well, it will be particularly more-or-less useless, given Wrye's update to 0.65 . . . I've just started using that and am still trying to figure out the extent of the changes from 0.60. unsure.gif

But the general idea should be the same . . . er, to explain how to set load order, clean mods, and how this fits into the mod install and mod maintenance process. In 50,000 words or fewer. 932.gif fing34.gif
Bumping for sheer usefulness. Live with it.
A bump for a great topic
and a poke2.gif for Larissa Mem
But Yacoby, your load order tutorial is so clear! biggrin.gif evillol.sml.gif

I was thinking about this today while cleaning mods . . . I don't think I ever got an answer. I understood that it wasn't wise to resave over a dirty save. Is this true while using Mash? Wrye was insistent that one only needed to keep blue the saves one was going to play. But Nerra for example has 10 save slots and circulates through them. In that case would one want all the saves to be clean when one started off any given session of playing?

(Just asking so I can make a clear rule. I don't think a simple tut would get into forked saves . . . especially since people seem to attach another meaning to the word "forked.")
QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Sep 11 2006, 01:51 PM) [snapback]8039047[/snapback]
.... I understood that it wasn't wise to resave over a dirty save. Is this true while using Mash? ....
Yes, just good hygiene.

First, distinguish between 'a dirty save' and 'a previously used save (slot)' - saving over a dirty save sounds to me like asking for trouble whatever you are using. Making a fresh save in a fresh slot has simply been found to lead to better results.
Will Wrye mash do it all, obviating the need to make fresh saves in fresh slots? Maybe, some folk think so perhaps. To me it seems better to combine the potential benefits of two good approaches known to work than merely relying on one. Insurance. Prudence. Apple pie.


Thinking of it maybe as all guidance or 'best practises' works a little better than rules, which folk tend to think of as absolute and 'true' and want to argue about biggrin.gif whereas most of this stuff is not 'true', just a better way or easier way or known or proven or safer way of using the tools.


N.B. And you are absolutely correct about Yacoby's Load Order Tutorial; one of the very best mod user help tools going ---> HERE!
QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Sep 21 2006, 11:11 AM) [snapback]8134599[/snapback]

First, distinguish between 'a dirty save' and 'a previously used save (slot)' - saving over a dirty save sounds to me like asking for trouble whatever you are using. Making a fresh save in a fresh slot has simply been found to lead to better results.

Personally, I would be very surprised if saving over a dirty save caused any problems. The only way it would cause a problem would be if the save process somehow updated the existing save rather than just overwriting it -- which seems extremely unlikely.
QUOTE(Wrye @ Sep 21 2006, 06:23 PM) [snapback]8137738[/snapback]
Personally, I would be very surprised if saving over a dirty save caused any problems. The only way it would cause a problem would be if the save process somehow updated the existing save rather than just overwriting it -- which seems extremely unlikely.

Yep and I would prefer to err on the side of prudence on this one, a surprise best simply avoided.
Hello,



Thank everyone who contributed to this thread. I'm learning to to use Wrye and have some of the basics down, which is a far cry from (with nothing selected) pushing "just fix it" in Testool a few years ago. I"m trying to clean my mods in testool (but doing merged lists in wrye) and I don't see how to select mods to "clean". I'm using some mods that shouldn't be cleaned this way (including emma's companion mods). How do I do this? Since I'm using wrye is there some other utility for the esp checking that I'm looking for?



thanks

QUOTE(elonin @ Sep 27 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]8189623[/snapback]
I'm learning to to use Wrye and have some of the basics down, which is a far cry from (with nothing selected) pushing "just fix it" in Testool a few years ago. I"m trying to clean my mods in testool (but doing merged lists in wrye) and I don't see how to select mods to "clean". I'm using some mods that shouldn't be cleaned this way (including emma's companion mods). How do I do this? Since I'm using wrye is there some other utility for the esp checking that I'm looking for?

No, you don't need to do anything in Wrye Mash (which, by the way, was just updated again). All the functions you are looking for are available in TESTools itself.

1. When you open TESTool, there is a list of 7 functions. Choose Clean ESP/ESM files (save results in "Clean" folder). This will clean the mods and put cleaned versions of them into a folder in Data Files marked "Clean," leaving the original mods in your Data Files.

2. Next, click on "Options." Choose "Restricted Cell cleaning" and "Restricted Dialog Cleaning." Read the readme to understand what "Force save for clean plugins"; "Retain file time, when cleaning" and "Don't change plugin names" mean. If you are putting them in a clean folder, whether you check these or not is not particularly important, since Wrye Mash allows you to change names and dates. Press "Done" (er, after you're done.)

3. Then press execute. You will see a list of all your plugin names. HOLDING DOWN THE CONTROL KEY, CLICK THE MODS YOU WANT TO CLEAN WITH YOUR LEFT MOUSE KEY. When you are finished choosing all the mods you want to clean, press Enter or click on "Open."

4. TESTools will clean all the mods and will generate a report saying what changes it made. Review the changes and toss out any changed mods you don't want to keep. For cleaned mods you want to retain, remove the originals in Data Files and replace with the version from the Clean folder.

5. Reopen Mash to tweak your load order and ensure all the mods you want to work with are checked. As I recall, if you have "Lock Times" turned on in Mash, Mash will usually put a cleaned mod back where/when it was before in the load order. Rename as necessary/desired.
Oh, this probibly is silly but I thought testool would just preform whatever option I selected for all of my mods. Do you have programing knowledge or just alot of modding + observation? Wish I'd put my time into learning this stuff earlier.
Too valuable to allow to languish where ever it's fallen to.
QUOTE(DarkDiva @ Nov 30 2006, 10:19 PM) [snapback]8708483[/snapback]

Too valuable to allow to languish where ever it's fallen to.


I "T" totally agree. Thanks DD for directing my post over here. My worried that nothing has been done on this for so long.

I would like to mention that it seems that some were getting a little "warm" about this subject.

It seems that there are two side to this, well maybe three. One is the originator of Wrye Mash, two are those trying to create an understanding of the program itself for three, those of us less computer/programy literate types. It seems that everyone is trying to do their best in reaching this goal by forming a Pyramid coming from the top down, with the bottom layers which represent the majority of those forum members who like me, know very little about the difference between a mod vs a plugin. Ha! Ha! (My attempt at humor here)

Someone correct this if it seems off the mark.

I would like to relay something from my past, in the hope that it might help "everyone" to understand each other and the real issue of why there is so much unclarity on this marvelouse program.

I'm going to speak openly. Perhaps, if I had done this when my dad was alive my whole life would have turned out differently. First, my dad was a Master Mason/Builder. At the time I didn't know there was a difference between that and a carpenter. My point is that he was very intelligent, especially with math. Not just any math; but, the type of math that goes into designing, building, and creating structures. Everypart of it.

My story (I'm actually coming to it and my point), is that when I was younger he was trying to help me with my math. (grade school) What was very clear to him, I could not get. The stuff on the page just muddled together until all I could see were a jumble of letters and numbers. I really wanted to see them and couldn't and he really wanted to explain them to me and couldn't. Neither one of us were getting anywhere, and so we both gave up.

I think that this is what's happening here. (not the giving up part) But, to some, this program is so clear that it's hard to understand why others can't see it too. Obviously, too many see a big jumble or there wouldn't be so many continuing posts on the subject. I have been able to figure out some of this program so it isn't too far off the mark. Just needs a little help now and then. I see the potential and can almost grasp what it's trying to tell me; but, then I lose it.

Perhaps if there were more pictures explaining the steps? Would this help do you think? For instance I get bogged down on the intermediary parts. Like, it says to do this; but, it doesn't say what happens when you do. For an iliterate this is scary.

I will quote from the program as an example:
"Mods List

Sorting

Sort Mod list items by (left) clicking on a column header, or by using the sort submenu of the column popup menu."
(Fairly simple instructions; but, the popup submenu isn't-how does clicking on any of these sort the mod list? which one do I click & What happens when I do..? will I be able to undo?)

Reverse a sort by redoing it. E.g., left click on the File column header twice in a row.
(Yeah! But, I'm still trying to sort my mod list-and I'm only on one mod?)

"Load Order" is the exception it will always appear in correct order.
(not if I screw it up-and I haven't been able to sort my mod list yet)

Force ESMS to the top of the list by selecting "Sort by Type" from the context menu.
(Sorry I couldn't find a "sort by type" are we still in the submenu?)

Force selected mods to the top of the list by selecting "Sort by Selection" from the context menu.
(Where's the context menu where'd it come from-is it different than column popup menu and where's the "sort by selection" to click on?)

Now granted this was a little redundent; however, I was using this as an example on how easy it is to be confused with this program. For someone that is familar with such things it may be very clear.

Personally, I could understand a left click-hold-and-drag easier as a method of mod sorting; because, it's more visual, and it forms a picture in my head. I am not saying that it's the best method, just easier to understand.

I don't know if this has helped or made enemies for me; but, after my youth experience I decided to have a say anyway. Sometimes keeping silent is not the best solution. Maybe someone can add to this, and then again, maybe I'm playing volleyball when everyone else is at the ball park?



I really wish someone would put this up on a webpage somewhere before it's lost.
QUOTE(DarkDiva @ Jan 9 2007, 04:39 PM) [snapback]8992324[/snapback]
I really wish someone would put this up on a webpage somewhere before it's lost.
Oh, I don't see it getting lost, DarkDiva. nope.gif

Just back here myself to recheck how to do something.
Hmmm . . . that's probably good sign that one needs to play more. heee.gif
I just started using Mash so bear with me. I have gone through the tutorial to clean my save. All my mods are green but my save is pink. I went through processed outlined here (Sync to load and then repair all) but my save is still pink. When I repeat the process it says there is nothing to repair but my save does not become blue.

Am I missing something here?

EDIT: Never mind they are blue now. smile.gif
For saved games, (P)ink = Perfect;
For masters list (on the right) of a Pink selected savegame, (B)lue = Beautiful
heee.gif
Its good to know about pink/purple. I was beginning to think none of my cleaning was working.

Here a another question:

I clean my save with wyre mash and my save is purple (pink) and masters are blue (perfect). Then when I go and load the game and play it (without adding or subtracting any mods) for while I come back and look in wyre mash. My save has become green and I have green masters in my middle of my blue ones.

am I skipping a step here?
QUOTE(wolfie @ Mar 18 2007, 05:48 AM) [snapback]9501948[/snapback]

Its good to know about pink/purple. I was beginning to think none of my cleaning was working.

Here a another question:

I clean my save with wyre mash and my save is purple (pink) and masters are blue (perfect). Then when I go and load the game and play it (without adding or subtracting any mods) for while I come back and look in wyre mash. My save has become green and I have green masters in my middle of my blue ones.

am I skipping a step here?
This is strange. The only time I have seen new green entries in the master list is after having changed the mods included in the saves master list or their timestamp.
Some things (probably obvious, but still...) to verify:
- before using the Saves tab, verify everything is green in the Mods Tab
- be sure to load and play the exact pink/purple saved game, and not another similarly named one (the saves list in Mash may have a different display order than the in-game saves list.
For example, if you duplicate a save, the duplicated save has the same timestamp but "Copy" appended to its name, and it may be displayed before the original in Mash, but after the original in game)
Other than this, I can only say usually the first green entry in the master list is the mod near what has changed/is not in the expected loading order, so maybe this could give you a hint on the mod range to investigate for unexpected changes (loaded mods with timestamp immediately before the first green entry)
QUOTE(wolfie @ Mar 18 2007, 04:48 AM) [snapback]9501948[/snapback]
Its good to know about pink/purple. I was beginning to think none of my cleaning was working.

Here a another question:

I clean my save with wyre mash and my save is purple (pink) and masters are blue (perfect). Then when I go and load the game and play it (without adding or subtracting any mods) for while I come back and look in wyre mash. My save has become green and I have green masters in my middle of my blue ones.

am I skipping a step here?
Have you synchronised your save with your modlist? On the Saves tab choose your save, right click on the column headers of the mod list. From the menu that appears choose "Sync to Load List". When you've done that click on "Save".
This is a FANTASTIC thread. It would be great to have some more info on the Texture Replacer options now.
I have a question, probally a stupid one but i need to know the answer.

When you sort by modified date the mods that are up (higher in the list) have higher priority then the mods beneath them in the list?

And could someone give me the correct order of the ESMs for Morrowind, bloodmoon and tribunal, or is the order always correct of the official ESMs?
QUOTE(Sneeper @ Jul 26 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]10612902[/snapback]
I have a question, probally a stupid one but i need to know the answer.

When you sort by modified date the mods that are up (higher in the list) have higher priority then the mods beneath them in the list?
Mods with a later modified date will load last (i.e. overwrite changes made by mods earlier in the load list). So, a mod modified in February 2007 will load after one modified in January 2007; and if they both modify the same sword (for e.g.) the January mod's changes will be overwritten by the February one. Unless you use TESTool's merge objects function...
QUOTE(Sneeper @ Jul 26 2007, 09:34 PM) [snapback]10612902[/snapback]
And could someone give me the correct order of the ESMs for Morrowind, bloodmoon and tribunal, or is the order always correct of the official ESMs?
I don't think it really matters but I'd go with Morrowind then Tribunal then Bloodmoon.
How I have a question.

Whenever I try to import the merged level list, Mash dose the calculation but says "No lists require merging."

That worries me, though, because I have Creatures installed, and the thing just isn't making any merged level lists.

Any advice?
But are you using any other mods that alter the creature lists? As I understand it, "merge Lists" doesn't mean merge a mod's list with Morrowind, it means merge it with the lists from other mods.
Awesome work here, thanks for the guide.
QUOTE(Gwilym @ Aug 6 2007, 07:36 PM) [snapback]10695227[/snapback]
But are you using any other mods that alter the creature lists? As I understand it, "merge Lists" doesn't mean merge a mod's list with Morrowind, it means merge it with the lists from other mods.


Yes, I have Fliggerty's armor mod, too.

I get a loooot of doubling/tripling of monsters, like 6 cliffracers attack me at once.

It's damn annoying!
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how I could fix some mods that have an Orange Checkmark. The beginning of the thread states that if it is orange than there are other mods with the same create date and Wryes official site states that an orange checkmark means that the load order is incorrect.
I have confirmed that there are no other mods with the same date and I have tried changing the load order but it does not change anything. Here are the mods that are orange in the order they load in.
Assassins Armory.esm
Assassins Armory - No Scripts.esp
Assassins Armory - Bolt Rifles.com
Knights of Tamriel.esp
MCA Tamriel Knights Addon.esp
QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 7 2007, 06:54 PM) [snapback]10701126[/snapback]
Yes, I have Fliggerty's armor mod, too.

I get a loooot of doubling/tripling of monsters, like 6 cliffracers attack me at once.

It's damn annoying!

Fliggerty's armor mod has leveled item lists, but no leveled creature lists. So, again no need to merge lists.

What other creature mods do you have? mod list?

What happens when you use repair all? Copy the report (clipboard) or once you close the window it's gone.

Curios noob: Before you do this make sure that you have the necessary master files loaded. If you don't this'll remove the dependency but stuff won't work right. Note also that the right window actually works as two windows, but they share the bottom buttons. Highlight the orange files, then on the right side click in the lower window, it'll usually fix it. Don't forget to save.
Or, right click on the file and choose repair refs. Or do both, it's never hurt me. YMMV. On duplicated file dates - if both files are checked - will have the whole file name highlighted in red.
Wouldn't it still have to be in the 'Mashed Lists' any way?

But other than those two, I don't (I think) have any other leveled lists altering mods.
QUOTE(Ironed Maidens @ Aug 8 2007, 11:53 PM) [snapback]10711278[/snapback]
Wouldn't it still have to be in the 'Mashed Lists' any way?

But other than those two, I don't (I think) have any other leveled lists altering mods.

I think: No they wouldn't. Mashed lists is basically for coordinating all the leveled lists. Someone please PLEASE say if I'm wrong. If the list is a new list (not from MW, TR, or BM) AND it isn't duplicated by another mod, then it is simply added. If there is overlap, then mashed list will have to coordinate them.

There's a great thread about leveled lists -- lists in lists -- on this forum. It's from a while ago though so you'd have to search. It's geared to those who make lists, but it helps to understand how to use them as well. I've done a quick check and didn't find it ... I'll look again tomorrow and if I do, I'll add it here.
QUOTE(Miran @ Aug 9 2007, 02:24 AM) [snapback]10712118[/snapback]
There's a great thread about leveled lists -- lists in lists -- on this forum. ....

Levelled List Tutorial, - is there one? An Idiot's Guide? ---> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.ph...=523132&hl=
QUOTE(Miran @ Aug 9 2007, 07:24 AM) [snapback]10712118[/snapback]
I think: No they wouldn't. Mashed lists is basically for coordinating all the leveled lists. Someone please PLEASE say if I'm wrong. If the list is a new list (not from MW, TR, or BM) AND it isn't duplicated by another mod, then it is simply added. If there is overlap, then mashed list will have to coordinate them.
<snip>
That's my understanding too, if there's no need to merge levelled lists then Mash won't If you only have two mods affecting levelled lists, one doing creautres and one items and they don't modify the same lists - no need to merge.
QUOTE(Ronin49 @ Aug 9 2007, 07:37 AM) [snapback]10713078[/snapback]
Levelled List Tutorial, - is there one? An Idiot's Guide? ---> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.ph...=523132&hl=

That's an excellent thread.

But I was thinking of this older one:
Save Games and Leveled Lists, Do they change?
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.ph...06075&st=0#
Im getting confused right here

To fix your save games so that they correspond to the mods you have loaded now, click on an ugly pink save, and then right click on the bar under the column to the side of the Saves tab that says "Masters", right next to where it says "File" (in that details area). You will bring up another menu, just like you did with the mods tab.

And will doing all this stuff help me? My problem is a previous mod i was using de buffed speed if you had heavy armor on and i didnt like that so i stopped using the mod and i no longer have red thing that tells me speed is being debuffed but i still have the debuff and i cant cure it. Will wyre mash help that?
First make a copy of your save file and work on that copy. If it works great, if not you won't be worse off.
QUOTE(jagwa @ Aug 9 2007, 10:19 PM) [snapback]10718939[/snapback]
Im getting confused right here

To fix your save games so that they correspond to the mods you have loaded now, click on an ugly pink save,

yes
QUOTE
and then right click on the bar under the column to the side of the Saves tab that says "Masters", right next to where it says "File" (in that details area). You will bring up another menu, just like you did with the mods tab.

Hmmm. I don't see "Masters". But you don't have to right-click, just click on one of the files in the list of files (mods). The 'save' and 'cancel' buttons should go from grayed-out to clickable. Click on the 'save' button.

After you sync the save's master list to the active list, right-click on the save and use 'Repair All'.

QUOTE
And will doing all this stuff help me? My problem is a previous mod i was using de buffed speed if you had heavy armor on and i didnt like that so i stopped using the mod and i no longer have red thing that tells me speed is being debuffed but i still have the debuff and i cant cure it. Will wyre mash help that?

Just to be sure I understand: You saved with the mod's effect active, then deactivated the mod, and the effect is still running on your character even without the mod? I'm guessing this is like a magic effect.

I think it will help.

If this doesn't work, I've got questions. Can you turn off the effect when the mod is active? If there isn't a spell, does it become active when you wear heavy armor and if yes, does it go away if you take off the armor or even better put it on the ground? If the answer to either is yes then re-enable the mod, load your save (a copy would be best) get rid of the effect, then save.

Then clean the game again. Cleaning on a regular basis can surprise you with the stuff that turns up.
AHH Nvm I got it working it was my fault. What the mod does is if you wear heavy armor it reduces your speed and even if you take it off it still stays. I tryed using restore speed potions but gah i found out it had reduced my speed by over 100 thanks for the help anyways.

BTW i still cant get my saves blue or green all pink even though i synced them and repaired.
jagwa, I know they're close (at least on my monitor) are you sure they're pink and not purple? Purple is good - and it is not a royal purple, it's a light ... <sigh> ... pinkish purple.
Take a look at the box at the very right:
http://wrye.ufrealms.net/Wrye%20Mash.html#MasterListUpdating

The readme is not quite up to date with this new color, it should be:

For save games, you want every master to be purple - i.e. you want the save itself to be purple.

... but "blue" would not be "bad" also. If I understand correctly then a blue would turn into purple with the next save anyway.
QUOTE(DWS @ Aug 14 2007, 03:58 AM) [snapback]10750306[/snapback]
The readme is not quite up to date with this new color, it should be:

For save games, you want every master to be purple - i.e. you want the save itself to be purple.

My save is purple and all the masters are blue (in the master list, on the mod tab they're green). I think only saves can be purple.
QUOTE(DWS)
... but "blue" would not be "bad" also. If I understand correctly then a blue would turn into purple with the next save anyway.

Yup, after saving the game with the new list the blue save should turn purple.
Hi folks,

I have a similar problem to a poster in this thread regarding CTD [crash to desktop] caused by a [corrupted] saved game.

I returned to MW after a number of years, and diligently spent a couple of hours reading to research what mod tools I would need, how to use them (readme.txt) and how to incorporate mods and understanding how mod load order works, etc.

After a significant amount of time testing my desired mods, and removing those mods that kept producing crashes / errors (waves goodbye to NoM - Necessities of Morrowind), I finally created my mob load order - keeping mod dates / times locked and manually altering mod dates / times to keep load order sequenced - and started a new game.

I have not added or deleted any mods since my new game, and do not have a 'dirty save'. I have frequently used the same save game slot, and created new slots that I have again saved over. So far, so good - no problems. My save games are a healthy pink / purple colour, and all corresponding mods are blue.

After saving last night, I logged on this morning to be greeted by a CTD. Tried again, another CTD. Used Mash to 'sync load order' and used 'repair all'. Logged on, same deal - CTD. Tried my previous save position - same deal: CTD.

Wisdom often arrives with the benefit of hindsight, but if one does use the same save slot, use a fresh save slot to create a master (use your previous slot as a back-up) before logging out. I'm hoping that someone can provide some advice because it looks like I've lost my save position and a lot of hard work. If I have, I'll have to shrug my shoulders and come back to MW another time and as I do have a lot of work to be catching up on (*sigh* Christmas, on annual leave for two weeks with a flight to Japan in a week, and I still have to revise for my professional business qualification and language [Chinese] studies!).

This isn't a Mash problem, per se - more a piece of timely advice on creating backup saves before you log out, to hopefully preserve your position in case of a corrupted save.

Regards,
Riotgirl
Since I started to use Mash to manage my lists I get an Overriding List list when I do a repair all for several items. Is to be expected or do I have a problem with my list not being extensive enough?

sieboldii

QUOTE(Larissa Mem @ Mar 10 2006, 01:46 PM) [snapback]4636756[/snapback]
If the mod is yellow, that means that the mod (or another mod it depends on [?]) was created using a different version of Morrowind than the one you are using. For example, the mod-maker only had Morrowind, and you have GOTY. [......] To fix a yellow mod, you can do a couple of things. The easiest would be to look over at the details box, where it lists the mods and game files this mod depends on. If they are all green or better, you can click on the yellow mod, click once inside the details box, say "okay" to the pop-up message, and press "Save." Fix all the mods until the box next to them is green.

Yay!! Thanks for that .... I've finally managed to get rid of all those "Master file this plugin depends on may have changed since the last save, saving again will clear this message [hahahh, since it never does] ..... etc...... etc" messages in my warnings.txt. I feel ridiculously happy about this (there's just 2 "Texture ~ Count" messages left now happy.gif )......... thank you Larissa. fing34.gif
all this information is wonderful is this information going to continue to stay as a thread or is there eventually going to be an actual guild we can down load and keep .
QUOTE(mystery05 @ Jan 24 2008, 11:33 AM) [snapback]11649292[/snapback]
all this information is wonderful is this information going to continue to stay as a thread or is there eventually going to be an actual guild we can down load and keep .

Most probably it is going to stay as a thread, mystery05. You could always save it as an .htm file using your browser controls to do so or the same capability exists under "Options", top right of the page.

Excellent, I need to figure out how on Earth Wrye Mash works...
Mash isn't starting for me. My shortcuts seem to all be in place, so here's a bugdump:


C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy>c:\python25\python.exe mash.p
y 0
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "mash.py", line 7, in <module>
import masher
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\masher.py", line 19,
in <module>
import wx
ImportError: No module named wx

C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy>
QUOTE(paranoid flu @ Feb 3 2008, 04:33 PM) [snapback]11706071[/snapback]
Mash isn't starting for me. My shortcuts seem to all be in place, so here's a bugdump:
C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy>c:\python25\python.exe mash.p
y 0
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "mash.py", line 7, in <module>
import masher
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\masher.py", line 19,
in <module>
import wx
ImportError: No module named wx

C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy>
I guess from that you didn't install wxPython.
QUOTE(Dragon32 @ Feb 3 2008, 12:34 PM) [snapback]11706356[/snapback]
I guess from that you didn't install wxPython.


Oh, yup. That was it. Thanks. :]
Necromancy - cause most of this info is really useful.


smile.gif
QUOTE(Mr KWMonk @ Mar 7 2008, 01:28 AM) [snapback]11894959[/snapback]
Necromancy - cause most of this info is really useful.
smile.gif

smile.gif Another cadaverous bump, hoping this continues to be of some use with some of the questions that arise regarding this excellent utility.
I really wish this would have been stickied.. would have made installing mods a bit easier

HINT HINT. tongue.gif
Reading as a novice I can say its a wonderful draft so far! Great job. I read the whole thing and if you are writing for the novice I would only suggest either giving more details and examples about something that may be a new word or concept to someone reading about managing mods for the first time. One example would be "leveled lists." I didn't know what one was exactly untill reading a posts made by another poster. Either explain in detail in the guide or create a dictionary to look up new concepts. Maybe a link to the new concept to the dictionary would be another idea. A lot of us here are visual or hands on learners too. So if you wanted to accomodate them maybe you could include some excercises, video, or snapshots.

The only other suggestion I would have for this wonderful draft would be to check your links. Some have been moved.

Great idea and planning, and good luck with the final draft.
QUOTE(Mithrildreams @ Jul 14 2008, 01:41 PM) [snapback]12507808[/snapback]
Reading as a novice I can say its a wonderful draft so far! Great job. ...
Thank you for your kind comments.

QUOTE
... I read the whole thing and if you are writing for the novice I would only suggest either giving more details and examples about something that may be a new word or concept to someone reading about managing mods for the first time...
We were not, writing for novices that is, excepting novices to Wrye Mash. From the first post:
QUOTE
We do not intend that it include extensive explanation about why doubling occurs, the game engine, the theory of levelled lists etc etc etc. Those issues are relevant of course and may well come up in the thread but can only serve to lengthen and confuse a step-by-step guide, so don't expect to see it all included.
Try here: Starting Out With Mods 1.1

QUOTE
... One example would be "leveled lists." I didn't know what one was exactly untill reading a posts made by another poster...
See above link and this thread, Levelled List Tutorial, - is there one? An Idiot's Guide?, previously referenced in Post#114, also incomplete. wink.gif

QUOTE
... Either explain in detail in the guide or create a dictionary to look up new concepts. Maybe a link to the new concept to the dictionary would be another idea. A lot of us here are visual or hands on learners too. So if you wanted to accomodate them maybe you could include some excercises [sic], video, or snapshots...
*cough* You are welcome to contribute: see also Post#127; in the common tongue 'I'm on extended sabbatical'. smile.gif

QUOTE
... The only other suggestion I would have for this wonderful draft would be to check your links. Some have been moved...
I recommend Google to help overcome these slippages in time.

QUOTE
... Great idea and planning, and good luck with the final draft.
Thank you again. See above. This is almost assuredly it. action-smiley-030.gif
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