[WIP] A First Draft Presented for Peer Review

A number of folk have reported less CTDs and other benefits using Wrye Mash. Some of us have been reluctant to use it or experienced some difficulty in using it effectively, despite the extensive documentation provided by Wrye, here: http://wrye.ufrealms.net/Wrye%20Mash.html

So a couple of us have decided to try to put together an 'Idiot's Guide to Wrye Mash' to use alongside the author's documentation. If nothing else, it should help us learn to use the utility better ourselves.

Larissa Mem has generously agreed to post the material she had written in the course of helping others and to edit that material into a finished guide, as improvements are suggested. Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.

Initial Outline to User's Guide:
1. Installation
2. * Monitoring Load Order and Maintaining Mod "Health" *
3. The Mash Levelled List
4. Cleaning Save Games
5. Reverting to Backed Up Save Games
6. Loading Masters
Subject to change

So, if you are an expert Wrye Mash user and can see how the directions can be corrected, re-worded, amended, re-sequenced or improved in any way, please post and let us know; the more specific or cut n'paste quotable your contribution is, the better.
And if you are not an expert: if you are unsure or struggling with Wrye Mash, please let us know what part is not clear to you and how this 'Guide' can be improved to help you.

My bias is this guide should end up to be concise, sequential and to the point, and that it needs to tell the user how to integrate Wrye Mash use with that of other utilities. It may take us a couppla versions to get to that happy state.
Once it is edited into final shape, maybe we can ask Wrye to cast a critical eye at it. Then we hope to convert it into HTML and host it at Mythic Mods so it remains available. [Emphasis added.]

We do not intend that it include extensive explanation about why doubling occurs, the game engine, the theory of levelled lists etc etc etc. Those issues are relevant of course and may well come up in the thread but can only serve to lengthen and confuse a step-by-step guide, so don't expect to see it all included.

What this 'Guide" is NOT is: a technical guide to Mash or customizing, a plug or testimonial, an attempt to convert anyone to its use, a platform for undue criticism of this or other utilities or their authors or a great many other things, including a complete guide to using and managing mods. We're still workin' on that one.


So, we would appreciate your help. . . . have at it!

Hi!

1. What to Do Before You Mash

How about new heading--"Mash's Role in Managing Mods" or something similar--since the order of what to do is all over the place (i.e., it's no longer "what to do BEFORE you Mash") and since I'm going to suggest that this just get totally rewritten as a general sketch of what to do with mods. This may not be the better approach, but I thought I would try it this way.

I am assuming you have minimal knowledge of mods--how to unzip, install, and play them from the Data Files screen in Morrowind. If you don't yet know how to do that, you should begin with Starting Out With Mods as well as the Elders Scrolls Forums' FAQ thread about Morrowind Mods and some installation tutorials.

To keep your Morrowind game running perfectly, you need to do a few main things:

a. Clean your mods of anything that might harm your game (especially, GSMTs--extra code that can mess up your game) and edit them as necessary
b. Check the mods you want to use in order to detect any potential conflicts between mods (for example--two buildings occupying the same space)
c. Place your mods in a workable order;
d. Merge objects and merge levelled lists in the game;
and
e. Clean saved games to prevent various errors, including "doubling" of objects (literally, seeing two of everything when you play a save game!)

WryeMash is one of many utilities out there that can help you with this process. It can help you with c) and part of d), and is the only utility available to perform e) for you. It can also help with many other functions, as described in the document that comes with WryeMash. This is a brief overview of some Mash's abilities and how they fit with other existing programs.


Here are a few short comments about how to perform the tasks I just described, about the order to perform them in, and about the utilities you can use for the job:

a. Clean your mods using TESTools, TESAME, or the Enchanted Editor. Mention WryeVaccine here?

Although the major mod websites do check their mods, it's a good idea to re-clean your own mods, and to clean any home-made mods. The easiest way to clean a mod is to run it through TESTools. TESAME and the Enchanted Editor give you more control but also require you to know more. Some people think certain mods should not be cleaned with TESTools; see this thread for varying opinions on the topic.

b. Check for conflicts using any of the utilities in a) above, using the CS, or using TES Plugin Conflict Dectector

Mods often conflict with one another, especially quest mods or landmass mods. There are ways to find out about general conflicts by reading about them on websites. Telesphoros' List discusses some quest conflicts; this map shows landmasses involved in larger mods; and there are ways to solve conflicts in the Construction Set if you know how to use it. TESTools has an automatic "Just Fix It!" function, although sometimes this can introduce problems.

Alternatively, TESTools can generate a conflicts report so you can decide what action to take about those conflicts.

c. Reorder your mods.

The order in which your mods are arranged is quite important. WryeMash is enormously helpful in maintaining mod load order; you can use Mash on its own or in conjunction with another program--from the Construction Set to TESTools to a utility called Reorder Plugins--to do this. There is much more on load order below, since it is a main Mash function.

d. Merged objects and Levelled lists.

TESTools can create a merged objects file for you that you treat like a mod and load towards the end of you mod list. You will find an explanation of how to generate it and use it with Mash below, but some other steps in Mash probably need to come first before you are able to create it. Levelled Lists determine your chance of running across random amounts of money, loot, villains, creatures, and so on in mods that add those. TESTools and WryeMash can create a file that figures out the chance of doing these for all your mods put together; WryeMash's method covers more than TESTools' does.

For an explanation of why you would need to merge objects, see this post. For an explanation of why you need to use levelled lists, see [link]

e. Clean saved games

You will need WryeMash for this, and below you'll read in detail how to do this. Almost any time you add or delete a mod to the list of mods you are using, you run the risk of creating doubling and other errors that may cause problems in your game. WryeMash cleans up the problems that changing mods introduces. Let's turn to look at Mash and its main functions.

- Edits 3/15--Many, including deletion of archived list of edits. I have a printout if you need to know--PM me.
- Obviously will have to rework (or edit out need for) links in final version.

2. Maintaining Mod "Health" and Monitoring Mod Load Order

There are two main tabs you can work with in Mash--the Mods tab and the Saves tab. You use Mash in order to keep your save games updated, cleaned, and playing nicely with the mods that you currently want to use. So you will be switching from the mods to the saves tab and making adjustments to both each time you install or remove a new set of mods.

Install and run WryeMash. You should see a screen with those two tabs: a mods tab and a saves tab.

Click on the mods tab so that you can see what mods you have. You can tell which mods are active or in use the same way you do from the DataFiles screen of Morrowind or the Construction Set or TESTools: mods you are using now have a checkmark next to them. The goal here is to make sure your mods are in good shape and to get them into a workable order. Morrowind loads mods by the time and date they were modified; this is called its load order.

Notice that if you RIGHT click on the bar right below the word Mods, you get a menu. On that menu you just pulled up, if click on "sort," you can sort your mods by many things--their author, their size, when they were last modified, and so on. Click "sort by" and then click "load order" so that you can tell what your current load order is. Before you do anything else, click "lock times." That will keep you from messing up the work you've done to adjust your load order with an accidental click of your mouse.

Check all the mods you want to be active (that is, check all the mods you want to play.) Now, examine the colors of the checkboxes of your mods. You need to make sure the mods are in good shape. WryeMash uses a color-coding sytem to let you know what the "health" of your mods and your save-games is. If any mods
are showing red or pinky-orange, it's because there are two or more mods that have the very same date and time of creation. Since we're trying to make a clear order for the mods to go in, having mods that load at the exact same time is no good. Mash will highlight mods like this for you and ask you to fix them. It's easy to change the time Mash thinks a mod was created by typing a new time in one of the boxes to the right of the mod, and then going down below that box to click save. (This part of the Mash menu, where the Mod or Save name, time, and Masters list is displayed, is called the "details" box.)

Voila--the mods should turn a healthy green. If the mod is yellow, that means that the mod (or another mod it depends on [?]) was created using a different version of Morrowind than the one you are using. For example, the mod-maker only had Morrowind, and you have GOTY. [Okay, do I _finally_ have this right? Or does it have to do with what version of each of the master .esms you have (which patch, etc.?).] To fix a yellow mod, you can do a couple of things. The easiest would be to look over at the details box, where it lists the mods and game files this mod depends on. If they are all green or better, you can click on the yellow mod, click once inside the details box, say "okay" to the pop-up message, and press "Save." Fix all the mods until the box next to them is green.

Next, you want to try to go about making your load order a good one. What's a good load order? That's the subject of debate. You can use an external utility like TESTools or Reorder Plugins to help you generate a load order, or you can determine it yourself by reading what others have had to say about load order here.

If you want to use another utility to order your mods for you, right click on the bar below the mods tab, and unclick "Lock Times." Then close Mash and open up whatever program you want to work with to reorder your mods. That program will rearrange your mods and set new dates and times for each plugin. When you open Mash again, you simply lock-in these new dates and times by right clicking again on the bar below the mods tab and turning "Lock Times" back on.

I tend to manage my own load order using Mash, which has the advantage of cutting out an extra step. Generally, I put things that change the game least, like faces, clothes packs, armor, and weapons mods, at the top of the list, some small item replacers and retextures next, then house mods, then game tweaks, and last quest
mods. Do remember to read all readmes; if aspects of load order are crucial they should (hopefully) discuss them. In general, remember that if there's a conflict between mods that Morrowind can solve, the last mod in the load order "wins," so in case of doubt put mods you want more lower on your list. Your "MashedList.esp" and "MergedObjects.esp" are some of the items you will want to put at the very end--we'll deal with that in the next section.

When you are happy with your load order and all your mods show are showing green to indicate they are in good health, you're ready to go on to adding in the Mashed Levelled List and MergedObjects, if you like, or to go take a look at your save games.


- Edits 3/15 Read the readme in detail and substantially revised the explanation of mod colors. Attempted to explain yellow mods AGAIN as well as the fix for them.

3. The Merged Levelled List and Merged Objects

Two things you will want to add to your game only after you have finished setting your final load order are a levelled list and a merged objects file. Both of these need to load toward the very end of your load list; they take the information from mods that come before them and crunch it down.

For example, a merged levelled lists organizes all the the levelled lists that individual mods use, so that if you are looking in random loot, or encountering random creatures in mods that introduce those things, Morrowind will merge all those random chances into one big calculation of chance. Mash has its own comprehensive levelled list, MashedList.esp, so you not need to use an external utility to reorder your level list.

To take advantage of this feature, look inside your c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind\Mopy folder, for your "MashedList.esp" file, packed inside the "Extras" folder. Copy it from your "Extras" folder into your Data Files--the same place it would go if it were a mod. Check off the box next to the MashedList and change its date so that it loads towards the very end of your mod list. Now, you want to get those levelled items into your Mashed List. To do this, right click on the MashedList.esp, click "Import," and click "Merged Lists." You should see Mash run a little calculation merging your lists, and it will report when it's done.

Another file that you will want to put towards the very end of your mod list is MergedObjects, which you can create in TESTools. Merged objects collects all the changes various mods make to an item and coordinates them. Close Mash and open TESTools. It will load the same list of active mods, in the same order, that you just created in Mash--you don't want to alter any of this information. Just select "Merge Objects for Active Plugins" and then press "Execute"; TESTools will create a MergedObject.esp. When you open Mash, and again change its date so that it loads toward the very end of your mod list, near where the MashedList.esp is.

Edit 3/11: Took out the questions asking if I was right when people said I was. Attempted to add something about Merged objects pursuant to Wrye's comments.

Edits 3/12:
- Overhauled this to explain levelled lists and merged objects in hopefully clearer way, focusing on using Mash to do this
- Would consider writing this in a different way . . . quite open to suggestions here

4. Cleaning Save Games

This is basically totally rewritten

Next, go over to your saves tab. It's possible that at this stage, your saves are showing very-not-blue. That's not good--with saves, the best possible color for the checkbox next to them is baby blue. The first thing you want to do is make it so that the saves are based on the same mods that you have loaded now.

"But how can that be?," you say. "I made the saves with "The Mod What Sucks Kwama Eggs," and I just decided to delete that mod and substitute "The Best Mod Evah, by SilverSorrow," so the mods that correspond to each save game will never match the master files I currently have checked off on my mod list!" Ah, that is where WryeMash comes in.

Many problems can occur when you add or delete mods. Sometimes, for example, you might accidentally delete a mod you have that is required for another mod to run (another way to put it is that the second mod is dependent on its master files--including all of the Morrowind game files and the first mod.) An example of this would be if you needed a custom-designed race as an NPC in a quest mod, and you had installed both the race mod and the quest, but later on you forgot why you

had some strange creature in your list of races and decided to get rid of it. Your quest mod might not work anymore or might start to cause errors. Another major cause of errors is shifting around the order of mods. Even if you simply delete a mod from the middle of your list, you have changed the mods' load order (the mod that loaded 9th before is now loading 8th.) With all of these changes, you can have problems with your save games. The information stored in the saves needs to match the information stored in the mods you have on file, or Morrowind can get confused. Mash helps it unconfuse itself. (This is the preschool-level explanation of doubling!)

To fix your save games so that they correspond to the mods you have loaded now, click on an ugly pink save, and then right click on the bar under the column to the side of the Saves tab that says "Masters", right next to where it says "File" (in that details area). You will bring up another menu, just like you did with the mods tab.

To get the same list that you have loaded for this save game (the one that deleted the "Mod What Sucks Kwama Eggs," and which needs to be adapted to "The Best Mod Evah,"), click "Sync to Load," and press save. This will make this save game use the same mods as those you have loaded.

You're still not done, though. There still may be differences in your save game between the information it has stored and the information your mods have. For example, your save games still may have something recorded from that mod that sucked kwama eggs, like some item that got left behind. To clean up any messed up information after the sync to load process, you need to "repair all" the possible problems in your save. Go to the save itself, right click on it, and click "Repair All."

This will clean up anything that doesn't correspond to what you have loaded.

If you've done all this correctly, this save should be showing blue. Actually, however, it's important for all your saves to be in usable condition. If the save you're going to play is blue and your past saves are green, that's enough for now. If any of your mods turn a yellow, pink/orange, or red color, however, you will need to go back and fix them up as well. Having old saves around in bad condition is not a good idea--and you should never try to save OVER anything but a blue save while playing a healthy game.

To fix those unsightly save games, just repeat the process we performed on the first save game--when you have the mod list the way you want it to be, click on the save game, right click below the master file, click "Sync to Load List," and then hit save. You should also occasionally run "repair all" on past save games to keep them in the best of shape.

Some people get nervous about the repair all function. If you're worried about trying to use a Mash function, keep in mind that Mash lets you records of your files in three ways, so you have many saftey nets available to you. For more on those, read the next section.

- Edit 3/14: minor change re: blue v. green saves. I don't want to get too complicated, but at least the info is there. We'll want to emphasize the importance of the readme as the definitive source for all Mash questions, of course.

- Comprehensive Edit 3/15: Probably too long-winded on doubling without giving any information on doubling. What I wanted to do was emphasize that shifting load order is a major no-no. I'll return to clarify this. Is the more stringent statement about not saving over old (green) saves right? Basically, I just don't re-use save slots anymore.

-I've played around with Mash repeatedly but see no way to update all saves at one time. I thought I had managed to do this once but have not been able to repeat it. ??

5. Reverting to Backed Up Saves

Okay, you've cleaned your save (perhaps adding to your safe cell list first to make sure that you kept what you needed from it.) Say you want to load up a new mod, but you are worried that you won't like the results. You can do a couple of things. Mash automatically backs up your files for you. You may also want to duplicate them (recommended), because the automatic backup is made as soon as you open Mash and take any action. Any later changes you make in Mash won't be backed up. (For example, if you open Mash and reorder your mods, Mash will back up your saves before the reordering. However, it will not make a specific backup of the save before you delete a mod and clean it, and finally added a mod and synced to that load list. If you later want to go back to that backup, you'd need to remember what you had done and reproduce all those intermediate steps to get your save to where it was right before you synced to the new load list. Perhaps best just to duplicate the save. )

Click on the save you want to make a copy of, click File, and click Duplicate. It's that easy! Still, the backup function is very helpful. If you ever performed an action you didn't mean to, or installed a mod you didn't like without creating a duplicate, you can try attempting to "Revert to Backup". There is also the function "Revert to first backup", which is the first backup that Mash EVER made of your save--but in the case of most people, that was quite some time ago.

Edit 3/11: hopefully clarified the difference between backing up and duplicating.

6. Loading Masters

This is particularly relevant for modders, but is helpful for everyone. Say you were working on a mod, and so ended up with only one data file selected. Or say you tried a new mod on a duplicated save, played a few sessions with it, but decided you didn't like it, and want to go back to the way things were. To get to the list of mods you were using for a particular save that is out of tune with the mods that are on your load list WITHOUT syncing to load (because, remember, you DON'T want those loaded mods to be a part of your game, find a game that is not blue, which means that it doesn't have the mod files it needs to run it. Right click on it and click "Load Masters." That will load the masters file for that save, and you will find that (as long as you still have them installed), the mod will return to blue. (You will probably still need to clean it, just to make sure everything's okay.) You can use the "Update" function so that the same master list governs all the saves you have.

You can also get to this list of masters from a backup. Say you have a save where you don't like what happened, but you know there was a save in that slot before a sync to load that had a set of masters you did like. Revert to backup, right click and press load masters, and you should get the master files that governed that game.

Update, and press save. You'll have the masters you wanted again. For any unhealthy-looking-saves, sync to load list. Clean as appropriate, and play!

Thanks, Larissa Mem!

OK, folks, draft's up . . . your comments and corrections would be welcome.

Great guide for n00bs like me. I have a silly question but do you use the latest beta version of the tool or the safe and tested 0.60 version?

Also could someone please bump the thread of mods that SHOULDNT be cleaned. That might even be a good thing to add to your list too if you added a short list of the most common mods that shouldnt be cleaned.

Also with the mod reorder function it would help to expand on what should be ordered where and give examples, the more examples the better I think.

Thanks

Hopefully the gurus will help us make it better, Bonk, but thanks. Credits to Larissa: she did all the work.

I use the 0.60 version, waiting for someone to tell me the other is tested and good-to-go.

Hello,

Mash alone can be use to reorder the plug-in (and it's probably my favorite tool to do this): just select the mod -> on the right, you see 3 boxes -> "File" "Author" "Modified": just change the date to what you need in the box "modified"

I've written something about the merge object function: here
I'll try to make it more complete if you want.

That's totally right.

TesTool works differently than WryeMash. TesTool resequence EVERY list present in master / plug-in files... and you need to use Levelledlist resequencer to have the list in the right order. Wrye Mash resequence ONLY list that need this. That's why you usually get a smaller files when you use your list with Mash.
Bjam
Edit: I used v0.60 and never got any problem. I now use v0.63 and everything works fine.
Re-edit: After re-reading my post, I can't understand why I did my last quote... Too much work and not enough time to sleep...
Re-re-edit (the last one I promiss): I'm really sorry, I forgot the most important
THANK YOU LARISSA MEM
We now have got a link to give to the people who have savegame problem.

I believe a yellow mod is a mod that will give this error



in the warning file.

[quote=Ronin49,Mar 10 2006, 01:44 PM]
[WIP] A Draft Presented for Peer Review

Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.

[i][b]Outline to User's Guide:
1. Installation

I have never successfully used Wrye Mash, so my comment on installation is a good starting point. Having installed Java and required files, I had hoped Wrye Mash would launch when double-clicked. However, it did not find the support files and failed to launch. (I used List Leveler to do what I had to do.)

Yeah, thanks, Jaffre. I'm clear on that.
We will amend the intro when we get there. When it's done we will edit out all the caveats - for now it is a draft for peer review, WIP, basis for comment, strawman, all of the above.

And Larissa has an installation section just waiting for your comment. Drat! Mea culpa.
Hold on . . . I reckon she can be persuaded to post it when she next checks into the thread.

Oh, alright, you twisted my arm painfully in its socket until I was forced to cut and paste my installation section from my document.

0. Installation: To use WryeMash, you first need to download and install two little utilities called Python and wxPython; the links for these are at Wrye's site. Make sure you install first Python, then wxPython, and then unzip Mash into your Morrowind directory (usually c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind). You should end up with a folder within your Morrowind folder called "Mopy," and most of the Mash-related items are lurking around in there. [You may also want to back up your current save games to entirely place, in case you decide to uninstall Mash down the line?? I did this the first time I installed because I was so freaked out by Mash . . . ]

You'll also hopefully end up with a little green checkmark desktop icon, or a way to get one. Click on it, and off you go. This is WryeMash.

Now, Jafre, if you did this, in THIS order (it has to be done exactly in this order, and the files need to be specific versions of Python and wxPython), and it's STILL not working, there are other problems that can crop up. I am not fully versed in them; but that's why we have other people besides me here. There are a few threads on this. Apparently one of the biggest problems as I understand is if you've installed Morrowind to a d: drive, and then there's some tweakage required. There are a few old threads on this, and again, I need to put those on my "To hunt down . . . " list.

Hope that helps some.

I believe Ronin49 posted the link to Wrye's site at the start of this thread, no?

I will see what else I can find that will be of use.

bjam--I found your merged object post to be quite helpful and meant to incorporate it--thank you for the link. As you can see, it's now in the thread.

I'm still not quite sure I understand your second point though. I see that Mash's merged level list is generally more helpful than TESTools', but that still doesn't answer the question of how one merges objects, with or without another utility, when using Mash??????? (How many utilities are needed, what process do you use?)

_bonk_--so you'd like more examples of possible load orders? Sure, I can give them--also in the mean time you can try clicking on one of the very subtle "here" links I posted. I'll have to say more than "here" from now on.

I'll also try to find that cleaning thread for you, that was a good one. In general mods that are heavily dialogue based are ones you shouldn't clean with TESTools, I think, as it can royally mess up dialogue--but I should perhaps learn before I speak.

Thanks folks.

Here are the links: like I said, don't expect to see all this stuff replicated in the Guide. Guides are short, sequential, direct. Otherwise folk just get lost in 'em:

Load Order - the newer one

Load Order - the 'original' - *bump* ocassionally

Plugin's you shouldn't clean with TesTool - I take this one with a grain of salt these days myself; your mileage may vary. My reasons?: I'm lazy, the list does not entirely conform with my own experience, I think mods folks have trouble with get loaded onto this thread and so on.
That said, there is a lot of good and useful information there: just bring salt, in my opinion.

Edit: Load Order links corrected.

A comment regarding installation location of Wyre Mash and Morrowind on another partition like D:

* It is absolutely irrelevant where Mash is installed. I for example have it in C:\Programme\Mopy ("Programme" being the equivalent for "Program Files" of a German Windows). You can also put it into H:\myjunk\greatstuff\Mopy. It doesn't matter at all.

However, you might need to adjust the shortcut command. If you right-click on the shortcut and select Properties, you get a dialog where you can enter the Target executable and working directory.

For target, the entry would look like: C:\Python24\pythonw.exe mash.py
Working directory (in my case): C:\Programme\Mopy

The general way to start a Python program - not only Wyre Mash -, is "pythonw.exe my_python_program.py". As "pythonw.exe" is not found by Windows automatically, you need to give the full path like in "C:\Python24\pythonw.exe". "mash.py" will be searched in the working directory, that's why we set it in the other textbox.

* The location of Morrowind itself is also irrelevant for the usage of Mash. When Mash starts for the first time, you can select the path to your Morrowind directory. I for example have it in D:\Spiele\Morrowind.

Reason for this post is that I often read that Wyre Mash must be in the same directory as Morrowind to function properly, but this information is plain wrong. Intention isn't to be overcritical of this excellent thread but to add some more information which might be useful.

This allows you to add a remover from "...\Mopy\Data" into the list. It can be one provided by Wrye or a custom remover made by yourself.
I'd say this is not the kind of thing you want explained in this tutorial, because, well, anyone willing to learn such thing will probably find better to read "Wrye Notes: Doubling Explained" and "Wrye Mash.html"


This might prove useful regarding what a remover does:



The removers provided by Wrye contain references for many standard Bethesda objects (creatures, containers, doors, etc...) and some mods. Now I've never had the need to use a remover, partly because "Repair All" covered all my purging needs, but I presume that they can be used to remove these specific dirty non-unique references from your .ess.

Correct, my Mash shortcut looks like this:
Target: E:\Programs\Python24\pythonw.exe E:\Games\Morrowind\Mopy\mash.py
Start In: E:\Games\Morrowind\Mopy


If you have a non-standard Morrowind installation, Mash will ask you where the game is the first time it runs. Once you've told it (E:\Games\Morrowind in my example), it saves that information and always knows in future.

I have a question. If I hit the sync to masters button for a mod and then save it will I ruin things? Is the sync to masters button only for working with save games and updating them rather than mods?

[QUOTE][quote=Larissa Mem,Mar 10 2006, 04:55 PM]
0. Installation: To use WryeMash, you first need to download and install two little utilities called Python and wxPython; the links for these are at Wrye's site. Make sure you install first Python, then wxPython, and then unzip Mash into your Morrowind directory (usually c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind). You should end up with a folder within your Morrowind folder called "Mopy," and most of the Mash-related items are lurking around in there.[/QUOTE]

Sorry! I said Java, but installed the proper version of Python.

[QUOTE][quote=Larissa Mem,Mar 10 2006, 04:55 PM]
Now, Jafre, if you did this, in THIS order (it has to be done exactly in this order, and the files need to be specific versions of Python and wxPython), and it's STILL not working, there are other problems that can crop up. I am not fully versed in them; but that's why we have other people besides me here. There are a few threads on this. Apparently one of the biggest problems as I understand is if you've installed Morrowind to a d: drive, and then there's some tweakage required. There are a few old threads on this, and again, I need to put those on my "To hunt down . . . " list.

Thanks folks.

[/QUOTE]

Actually, mine is installed on an 'I' drive.

[QUOTE][QUOTE](Jafre @ Mar 10 2006, 05:05 PM)
[QUOTE](Ronin49 @ Mar 10 2006, 01:44 PM)
[WIP] A Draft Presented for Peer Review
Let's be clear on that: the guide we are initially presenting is a draft, a basis for comment.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, thanks, Jaffre. I'm clear on that. [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

Sorry! I missed the final quote mark when I clipped Ronin49's initial note. My comment was only to point out a lacking I had found.

Jafre, it's OK; doesn't matter . . .
. . . but you are still messing the quotes in your post and so I am not sure what your question or comment is . . . ?
Can you try it again please, maybe avoiding use of quotes if that is practical?

Define "ruin things"? The sync to load list is only for save games. You cannot sync a mod to a master file through Mash. (Er, as far as I know.)

You want to sync to load list for your saves and then repair all references. It means "fix up all the references for any mods, added or deleted or changed." Yes, you may affect your save games, which is why you might want to make a duplicate and/or a backup. (Since I still haven't figured out when the backup process happens automatically in Mash, I sometimes do both. ) It's the same common sense process you SHOULD take if you are adding a mod or deleting one--backup your save. It just sounds a little scarier in Mash for some reason.

I'm glad Ronin49 and Larissa are taking this on. I'll try to throw some comments in as time permits. (Life is busy at the moment. SXSW! Woohoo!)

Ummm... First comment, please be sure to read my original readme closely if you're going to be writing an auxiliary help file. For example,



A couple of other notes:
* You can set load order through Mash. Just change the date of the file you want to reorder. It's possible to also use other load ordering utilities -- but you have to turn off lock times before doing so and then turn it back on aftewards. It's easier to reorder from within mash.
* You need to distinguish between line colors and checkbox colors. They mean very different things.
* You'll never see a blue checkbox anywhere on the mods tab. That's because blue indicates synchrony with the current load list -- which is only relevant for save games.
* Several different mods want to be loaded last. Obviously only one mod can actually be last. It'd be more accurate to say "lastish". You might note that it's a good idea to set the date for "lastish" mods in the future. (I use something like 1/1/2010.)
* TesTools "Merged Objects.esp" is indeed a lastish mod.
* Repair All doesn't actually repair everything. E.g., it doesn't remove items from inventory. Why? Because the Morrowind engine will do this when you play the game. Mash mostly fixes stuff that the Morrowind engine doesn't fix (or doesn't fix correctly). In short "Mash pre-cleans the save game. When you play the save game, Morrowind will complete the cleaning process (and probably show you some error messages in the process)."
* Backup process... Mash makes two backups for any mod or save game it messes with. 1. It makes a first time only backup the very first time it touches the mod/save game. I.e., it allows you to go back to a completely virgin version of the mod/save game. But if that backup is old it's probably too old. (Which is why mash throws up a are you sure you want to revert to backup dated m/d/yy message.) 2. For a given Mash session, it will make a backup the first time you mess with the mod. I.e., if you start Mash, make 2 or 3 changes to the mod/save game and then realize one of them broke something, you can revert. A "Mash session" starts when you start Mash. "Revert to Backup" is a safety net, but not a perfect one. You may want to use Duplicate and/or Snapshot instead since these give you a lot more control.

Blue vs. Green Saves
It's a common misperception that all your saves should be blue. In fact, only the mods that you're going to play with the current load list need to be blue. E.g., suppose that you have a save for an advanced character with a standard, stable set of mods (Yoda.ess). Now, suppose that you want to try some new quest mod (e.g., Great Shores). At that point, you could...
* Check "Great Shores v1.01.esp" on the mods tab.
* Go to the saves tab and duplicate the Yoda save. Call the new save something like "Yoda Shores 0"
* Now, do a "Sync to Master" on "Yoda Shores 0". That will make it blue, but leave the original "Yoda" save green.
Now, go play with Yoda Shores 0. This is what I usually do. If I play Yoda Shores enough, then I may make it my new base. But if something goes wrong, or if I want to rewind, then I just go back to my original "Yoda" save. Granted, I could not fork, and instead update the original "Yoda", and then use Mash to remove "Great Shores" from it later -- but forking is a bit safer. Also, if you don't finish mega-quest-mod 1, and instead want to work on mega-quest-mod 2, then you can go back to the original "Yoda" fork it again, add mega-quest-mod-2 and work on that instead -- without having to completely erase mega-quest-mod 1.

Keeping Loot Items [Advanced Topic]
If you want to mostly delete a mod, but keep some loot, then you'll need a loot version of the mod. Some modders provide such mods. (If they don't then you'll need to use TESCS to extract the items that you want into a separate mod. Or you might put them into a merged loot mod.) If loot mod is just data (doesn't place anything into the game world), then you can just add the new mod and remove the old mod in the usual Mash way. If the loot mod does place objects in the game world (i.e. has cell records), then you would need to use a Mash updater. But I bet this situation is rare to non-existent.


Does what you would expect... It will sync the MOD to the currently selected masters. Generally you would only do this to add a dependency to a master file. Very rare that you would need to do this. And if one of the needed masters is not currently selected, it would be removed from the mods master list. Which is would probably be unwise -- unless you know what you're doing.

Note that mods depend on esm files in the same way that save games depend on mods (esms + esps). For most mods there's no need to "Repair Refs", but for a few mods it's required. If it turns out to be required, Mash will actually tell you so while trying to clean a save game that depends on it. I think that I've only seen two mods that need to be repaired in this way -- and I think that both of them have since been fixed by their authors.

Hello,



1 - What are Levelled list
A levelled list is a list of object (monster, ingredient in a barrel...) that is linked to the player in-game level.

Example 1 -> monster list:


If this list is used in-game, the stronger the player is (or to be more precise, the higher the player level is), and the stronger monster you'll have to fight.

Example 2 -> NPC list:
This is the method used by MCA (Morrowind Comes alive): You just add a few spawn point, then you link this point to a levelled list in which you put NPC.

2 - Why merging levelled list?
If a levelled list exist in Morrowind.esm, then is modified by mods, when you play, you only get the levelled list of the latest mod loaded (which change the list).
Example:
Morrowind.esm


mod1.esp


mod2.esp


If you run Morrowind, mod1 and mod2
- without merging list :


You only get the list from mod2.


(NOTE: If you change the load order to Morrowind, mod2, mod1:

You only get the list from mod1)

- after merging list


You get a merging of list from mod1 and mod2, so you'll be able to see the monster of both mods (which is very useful if you want to play with two mods that change Morrowind's monster)

3 - How to merge levelled list?
You can do this by two different ways:

- TesTool + Levelled list resequencer:
Launch TesTool
Manage active plug-ins -> Execute
Select the plug-ins that you want to merge (check the box) -> Ok
Select Merge Levelled lists for active plug-ins
Close TesTool
Launch Levelled lists resequencer

- Wrye Mash
Copy Mashedlist.esp from \Mopy\Extras to \Data Files
Launch Wrye Mash
Right-Click on MashedList -> import -> Merged list...

If you use Wrye Mash, you don't need to resequence your list.

4 - Differences
- TesTool takes all the levelled list and put them after each other., that's why then you need to resequence them. Wrye Mash is merging and resequencing lists alone.
From example above, Morrowind + Mod1 + Mod2

Merged levelled list (with TesTool before resequencing):


Merge levelled list (with Wrye Mash or TesTool after resequencing):


- TesTool merge EVERY list it can find whereas WryeMash merge ONLY lists that need to be merged.
If a list is in Morrowind.esm and is modified by only one mod, well you want to get the list directly, from this mod, so it doesn't need to be merged.
Example -> see above with only Morrowind and Mod1

Merged_levelled_list.esp (with TesTool + Levelledlists resequencer):


MashedLists (with Wrye Mash):
You don't get anything, it is normal because IT DOESN'T NEED MERGING!

- Using Wrye Mash OR TesTool + Levelled lists resequencer doesn't make any differences in most of the case.

5 - Most important information
- Before launching a new game
- Copy-Paste MashedList.esp in your Data Files
- Launch Wrye Mash
- Check the box near MashedList.esp (to "active" it in your new game)
- Right click on MashedList.esp -> import -> Merged List...
- Close Wrye Mash
- You're ready to play... at least concerning Levelled lists

Bjam

Wow, great work!

This is a huge improvement to the available Mash docs and general knowledge base. Once you get all these comments incorporated in a new doc I will try to offer more constructive feedback. Most of the things I noticed so far were already addressed by others.

Thank you for the great resource!

By far the easiest way to do this is with Enchanted Editor. You can do it in just a few mouse clicks once you get over being scared of it.

First, make a copy of the mod file. It may help to name it something like <mod_name>_items.esp just to keep track of it. I usually also add my initials to the beginning of the name so I can easily tell it's something I've modified.

Open the renamed mod in Enchanted Editor. Delete everything you don't want to keep. This is especially easy if you just want to keep weapons, but not much harder if you want to keep all items. Once you've got the mod open in Enchanted Editor, check the box next to everything EXCEPT the following:

* Armor Types
* Body Parts
* Clothing
* Enchantments
* Items Misc
* Spells
* Weapons

This is the list of stuff you want to keep. They should not be checked. Any other non-grey items should have a checkmark next to them.

Now click the "Delete Marked" button.

Save it.

Open Mash and checkmark the new mod. Uncheck the old mod.

Use Mash "Repair Refs" on a copy of your save game to prevent doubling (since you just removed a lot of stuff referenced in your save game).

Load the game and test to see if you get any warnings.

The only complication here is if any of the items you kept have scripts attached to them. If so, you can either remove the script references from those items (in Enchanted Editor or the CS), or you can just leave those scripts in the mod.

Thank you to those who responded. I made some edits to try to incorporate comments when I understood them, and left things the way they were when I didn't, rather than mangle the text even more before I had a grasp on the issues.

Wrye, thank you very much for stopping by the thread.

I see that several people commented that WryeMash can be used to set load order. Indeed, that is what I use it FOR, in addition of course to preventing doubling. If the document doesn't make that clear, I should emphasize it more. I think I initially focused in my first post on using other utilities to set load order, because there had been questions about how to do that.

As you remark, and as the readme states, you would indeed have to turn off "lock times" to update the load order. (Oh drat, I wrote "lock load order" instead of "lock times." Another edit . . . )

From the readme: Note: If you want to use a non-Mash load ordering utility, you'll first need to turn off "Lock Times". When you're finished with the external ordering utility, turn Lock Times back on. It will reset to use the times set by the other utility.

But this is what I don't understand. How precisely does this work? The sentence implies there is a way to either export the load times from an external utility or import the load times via Mash. Otherwise, there would be no need to unlock times. If Utility A generates a list that says load Mods 1, 2, and 3, in the order 3, 2, 1, one could of course reorder those mods in Mash by hand without needing to turn off lock times--one would just enter new times for those mods and save the updated times. So I am assuming (possibly incorrectly) that there is another possible way of doing this, and that's what I was trying to address. Again, I haven't worked with programs other than TESTools, TESAME, and Mash, so I don't know (my computer freaks at the mere thought of Java). If anyone has any thoughts on this, they'd be appreciated.

I wondered why everyone was discussing keeping loot and then I realized it was because of my discussion of removers and safe cells. If that function seems one that's perhaps not frequently used or quite advanced, there's no need to go into it in detail. Getting the basic functions down in a clear way would be sufficient for people who have questions on the forums.

As far as I understand, "Lock Times" is an utility to prevent involuntary date changes by external tools, say TESTool. You can still change the dates, but once you recall to Wrye Mash it resets the dates to what it had stored. There is no need to unlock times when you modify plug-in dates from Wrye Mash, because it (I might be wrong on this) modifies directly the lists used to recall the dates.

That's correct. You don't need to unlock the times to modify a time/date stamp in WryeMash--you simply change the date and time and press save. That's what's so easy about it.

And you are right that one of the benefits of lock times is that WryeMash will then automatically update times. For example, if I am working on a mod, the time and date of the mod changes every time I work on it. If i want to test it out, if I have "lock times" checked in WryeMash, Wrye will return the mod to its original position in my load list, rather than placing it last(ish) in the list (as it would likely be since it's the last thing I've worked on--although of course one can put future dates and times on mods in WryeMash.) I just used this today--I wanted to tweak an armor mod I use and adjust the stats of the armor. I did that in the CS, cleaned it with TESTools, and loaded Mash. Because I have lock times checked, Mash returned the armor mod to its usual place in my load order.

Perhaps my question still isn't clear. It is a simple one: Is there a way to import the information from an external reordering utility into Mash?

As I said before, when I read the readme, I was under the impression that there was a way of doing this. If there were not, and one had to copy the load order from the external ordering utility into Mash by hand, it would seem there would not be any reason to unlock times, and then relock them. But perhaps I'm overinterpreting the readme, and there is another reason behind unlocking times.

I don't want to lose sight of the big picture--Mash can put your mods in order, but some people feel more comfortable doing it another way. The question is about the way to coordinate the way they've been doing it with Mash.

You need to unlock times in the case where you actually want to use the other ordering utility. If I leave the lock times on, then use some other reordering utility, as soon as I go back to Mash it'll ignore the changes made by the reordering utility (since it's changing the dates).

So no need to import or copy settings, simply unlock times, mess with the load order as you like, then lock times to lock in the new changes.

I'm not quite sure of what do you mean, are you asking if it's posible to import plug-in dates between different tools for load order purposes?

If that's the case, I don't think there is any need to overcomplicate things. Dates are stored in the plug-in files themselves, so independently of the tool used to reorder them, they will retain those dates until you modify them again.

What Wrye Mash "Lock Times" does is to provide the user a security measure to prevent any outside change in the dates, really. Once dates are set, it won't matter if you load those plug-ins in a hundred different tools, the dates will be the same.


Hmm, I feel a bit silly, either the question was too simple or I failed to understand you again. Perhaps you meant to say if it's possible to import the load list (in load order) to plain text? It is possible with Wrye Mash.

Edit: One thing to note is that Mash can't handle dates greater than January 19, 2038. So if you reorder your load list with TESTool and set some dates above that number, when loaded with Wrye Mash those 'greater' dates will be reset by Mash, even without "Lock Times" checked.

Load order of esps is determined strictly by their Modified date -- oldest loads first, newest loads last. All utilities that change load order do so by altering the modification date.

Mash's mechanics are pretty much as Sleawer stated... When you turn on Lock Times, Mash starts memorizing the modification date of all mods (saving the list of correct times to the settings.pkl file). Then, whenever you bring the mash window to the front, a little function runs, which checks all mods to make sure that their modification date matches the memorized value. If it doesn't match, Mash resets the file's modification date to the value memorized earlier by Mash.

If you turn Lock Times off, Mash quits doing the date reset AND it throws away the list of memorized modification dates. So, if you later turn Lock Times back on, it again gets the current set of modification dates -- i.e., the modification dates as set by the external reordering program.

So, Mash doesn't have to do anything special to import dates from e.g., TesTool -- it just reads the modification dates from the file system.

Of course, all of this is way to complicated to explain a help document!

I understood the last entry just fine, Wrye. Take that text and rework it a bit for the readme, and it will remain clear for others.

Yep. Focusing on the theory behind something or the technology that solves the problem does not lead to a useful guide. That comes from focusing on the operations to be performed in a logical and concise step-wise sequence.
We'll get there.

Hello,

Merging Objects is most of time a very good thing:
For example, you have a mod that modifies Spell Effects Stat (in TESCS -> Gameplay -> Magic Effects: change base cost), another one (four in fact) that modifies spell visual effects (in TESCS -> Gameplay -> Magic Effects: Casting Effects, Bolt Effects, Hit Effects, Area Effects) and a third one that modifies Spell glowing on clothes (all the No-Glow mods) (in TESCS -> Gameplay -> Magic Effects: Lightning Effect -> Change RGB value):
If you use this three mods, you'll get only one of the modifications that will be taken into account if you don't merge objects, it will be the modifications due to the mod that is loaded last.
If you merge objects of the three mods, you'll get Magic Effects that have modified stat, visual enhancement, and you can get rid off this horrible enchantement glowing effect.

The merged objects & merged leveled lists mods both must be make and synchronised with the mods that you use in your game.
You can have different save for different character at the same time, but if you have different mods lists for each character, you'll need to make a new merged objects and merged leveled lists for each character.

You don't have to "generate load order", it is "auto-generated" in Morrowind.ini:
- when you change the "modified date" of the mods, you change the order that Morrowind use to load the mods
The most recent mods are loaded last, and if there are conflict between two mods, the most recent informations are loaded while the older are discarded.
- when you open Morrowind Launcher or TesTool or Wrye Mash, the active mods lists that is loaded is taken from Morrowind.ini.
when you check a box near the mod name in one of those three software, you edit exactly the same part of Morrowind.ini to write the name of the mods that you've chosen to be active

So you don't have anything more to do than this:
- Launch Wrye Mash
- Reorder your mod list (edit the box "last modified...")
- Lock Time of mods (Not useful to Merge objects, but useful to be sure to keep a clean save )
- Close Wrye Mash -> When you do this, Wrye Mash modify Morrowind.ini

And it writes every mods that you've selected.

- Launch TesTool
[If you are like me and have more than one Morrowind & TesTool installation (install TesTool in each Morrowind directory):
- You've got a message:
"Morrowind.ini has been found in the current folder
[Morrowind current path]
Do you want to use this folder instead of registry settings?"
- Click -> yes
It allows you use Morrowind.ini directly where you've installed TesTool instead of the default installation stored in the Registry Settings of Windows]

-> TesTool loads active mods list, you can verify it: click on "Manage Active plug-ins" -> Execute
You see the list of the esm/esp that are in your Data Files, and those that have been checked Active with Wrye Mash are also Checked Active in TesTool because TesTool loads the information that Wrye Mash has stored in Morrowind.ini.

- Select "Merge Objects for Active Plug-ins"
- Click -> Execute
- TesTool creates a plug-in "Merged_Objects.esp"
- Close TesTool
- Launch Wrye Mash
- Change Merged_objects.esp date to put it at the end of your mod list
- Copy "Mashed_Lists.esp" from \Mopy\Extras in \Data Files
- in Wrye Mash, select "Mashed Lists.esp" -> right click -> import -> Merge Lists...

Now you have:

And you're (nearly ) ready to play.

Bjam

Thanks all for the clarification on the external utility issue. Sleawer, the problem seems to have been that I imagined that THOSE worked in another way than they did. Of course, once you understand something it's a little hard to recreate just what your prior erroneous thinking, so I can't say exactly how I thought they worked, but it doesn't really matter--I've got it now.

bjam--nice concrete example of coordinating load order and merged objects using TESTools and Mash. I incorporated it in a much stripped-down version--thanks.

I think that this conversation is diverging quite a bit from what's useful for the topic: providing extended "how to instructions" for Wrye Mash. I would suggest:
1. List the topics of help "how tos" that you want to provide. E.g., "How to reorder your mods" in Wrye Mash. Obviously, these should be topics that either a) aren't already described in Mash, or b ) aren't described in a concise way (i.e., that aren't in the quick start section).
2. Write the how-tos for each topic. Other folks can comment, and I'll throw in comments as time permits.

Addressing step 1, Load Order and List Merging are already covered in Wrye Mash docs:

Also, regarding Jafre's installation problem... Was the problem with Mash's existing installation instructions? My bet would be that he did not tweak the shortcut as explained in Mash documentation. That documentation is pretty clear, and it's fairly prominent -- certainly anyone having installation problems should check it. But a lot of people won't. The best instructions in the world won't make a difference if users refuse to read them.

Going back to Ronin49's original list...

But,

So, I guess, I'm not clear on what's not clear from the Mash documentation. I think that the docs already cover all the basic operations with concise (quick start) instructions. Advanced topics (e.g., using ref replacers or removers are not covered in quick start. They could be, but the more stuff you add to quick start, the more complicated (and hence more intimidating it becomes). There's also a few topics that I don't cover because they're pretty much self-explanatory. E.g., Revert To Backup, and Repair Map, both of which do exactly what their names say.

Although I'm sympathetic to the idea of this project, I'm just not seeing yet how it improves on existing Mash documentation. (Perhaps it would help is someone stated fairly specifically how the current Mash docs are unclear. I.e., not an "I don't understand." comment, but an "Docs say X, but in fact I have to do X+Y." comment.

Thanks for your comments, Wrye.

I really don't want to get into a discussion with you about the original documentation which is very professionally presented and extensive. Just to say that there are a lot of ongoing queries about Wrye Mash and apparently a number of experienced mod users somewhat reluctant to attempt its use. Seemed like another kick at it couldn't hurt any.

A little patience here might be a good thing. Everyone has lives and other priorities. I suggest we let Larissa Mem assimilate what she is learning from the comments, continue to make the edits and re-organization she needs to clear up the content and then presumably, start boiling it down into sharper focus and concise 'how-to' guidelines. I believe she was clear from the start that there is a learning curve and I hadn't noticed anyone else rushing forward to do this. Some things take time and one is trying to help here.

To me that was clear from the outset. I suggest we give it awhile before we start summing it up. That OK with you, Wrye? We really would appreciate your help but some patience with the process would also be appreciated. Thanks.

Wrye,

I'm a devout fan of Mash. However, it's not a very friendly app and the standard docs don't help much.

The biggest issue with Mash usability IMHO is that the user interface and documentation both assume a fairly advanced Windows user.

Most people are not used to using right-click techniques, which Mash relies on exclusively, even where a standard menu item or obvious screen button would be more appropriate.

This doc project seems like a good way to overcome the problem since the only other solution would be to redesign the user inteface.

I think this project can dramatically improve on the current docs by NOT being as brief as your procedure lists.

I think Larissa Mem is on the right track by trying to provide MORE detail than the standard docs. As long as things are explained clearly, more detail is okay.

Very true

Right menu click is an advanced technique??? Seems pretty basic to me, but okay... Anyway, I've made my point.

Jafre, there are some things that you could try to locate the source of your problem.

First you must have installed the programs specified in Mash docs. One way to find if you have a Python interpreter installed is to open a command prompt and write "Python"*, if it's installed you will get a response telling y