Can anyone point toward a straightforward step-by-step tutorial or guide that shows you how to go about modifying or adding things to the levelled lists, without assuming six or more years of TESCS and Enchanted Editor expertise?

Levelled Lists For Dummies sorta thing . . .?


And to the lucky referrer, a reward.
In appreciation of the recommendation of a suitable link, I will tell you why the Oblivion player is known world-wide to be a very level-headed gamer.

Hmmm, I haven't come across a guide for creating or editing levelled lists. Sounds like it might be time for someone to write one.

You can drag and drop items on the list. Triple-clicking lets you edit the level.

what do u need to know i have sevral mods that modify/add leveled lists so i know alot about them

But my understanding is you need to add items to the list in a given order? (Highest level first?) I didn't realize you could edit the level--thanks.

The closest thing I have found to any sort of instructions is on page 44-45 of the Mod Maker's Manual v.2, and it's not particularly user-friendly. (Doesn't help that I haven't had my CS open while looking at it.)

I don't understand how the combination of level and chance work? I mean, obviously, I get it in theory, but my question is how to get more of the stuff I want in levelled lists and less of the stuff I don't want. Are the lists additive or substitutive? That is, is there a total pool of levelled items that gets generated, so that if you add a different levelled loot mod (or add just one levelled loot mod to vanilla MW), you get less of other levelled stuff--or is there a way to get more total levelled stuff? The probability of getting stuff clearly has to add up to one . . . (It could be I'm confused because it's 5:00am).

multiple lists in one contaner each chancenone set at apropreaate % to what you want

I need:

- a general explanation of where the levelled lists are, how they are constructed, how they work etc, and

- step-by-step (idiot-proof) instructions on how to modify the levelled lists of a mod, how to adjust the 'drop' if it is too high or low, how to add other levelled list items to a mod, how to put levelled lists in a mod that adds items, and how to merge various mods with levelled lists (loot) into one mod that works.

Okay, here goes

Each levelled list has a % chance of not producing anything at all. Adjusting this then causes more or less items to be generated.

Once the game tests if something is generated, it then picks at random something from the list.
If you have two items in a 100% chance list, each one then has a 50% chance of being picked.

You can add levels to items, so as the player increases in level, more items are made available to the levelled list. If you do this, you have a tick box option, "Calculate below or equal to player level".
If you have this off, then only items in the list that are equal to the players level will be picked. If you have it on, then anything up to the players current level is picked.

For example:
1 Iron Dagger
1 Iron Shortword
3 Steel Dagger

With the tick box, at level 1, only one of the Iron weapons will get picked (50% chance each). At level 3, the steel dagger is made available, so each weapon is at 33% chance of getting picked. naturally, if you add more of the same items to the list, you increase the chance of that item being picked. So, if we added an extra Steel Dagger at level 3, each Iron weapon now has a 25% chance, while the steel dagger has 50% chance (since there are two of them)
Without the tick box, at level 1, the list will pick one of the Iron Weapons, at level 2, the list will not pick anything. There is nothing at the players level (although thinking about it, it might pick up the nearest lowest level instead). At level 3, only the Steel Dagger will be picked (100%)


Adding to a list is simple, you just "drag and drop" items into the list. You can also do a multiple selection. If you use Shift or Ctrl you can highlight more then one item to drag into the list. Shift does a range, Ctrl lets you pick.
Double click the number next to the item, and you can change the number of the level for that item.


You can also put levelled lists into a levelled list. All the same rules apply. You can have a top level list that has a 100% chance of producing something from that list, but then put another levelled list into it's list that only has a 10% chance of something appearing. So, if this levelled list is chosen, it has to pass the 10% test too.


Hope that helps

Thanks, PirateLord.

While I still don't feel quite competent enough based on that to reach into the CS and start fiddling, that is a very good and understandable start.


kalimarr was asking similar questions recently in the thread - MCA - changing levelled lists for courtesan clothing?,

. . . and there was also some discussion, description and how-to here in the - Levelled Loot Lists, Mods that expand them thread by harborgolfer,

. . . as well as why to use levelled lists and not AddItem scripting, in the important thread - Save Games and Leveled Lists by DarkDragon, perhaps best summarized here:
. . . and RodrigoVinholo's MTT and leveled lists here.

[Edit:] . . . and Bryss Phoenix's thread Leveled List Mergers, Mods this should NOT be done to?


All very informative and useful stuff for which I am most grateful.

Now, and trying not to sound too much like an ingrate after all, most of the tips and instructions assume one knows their way around the CS pretty well, seems to me.
Fine if you make mods but some of us don't and really could use a go-to-this-tab, click-this, drag-from-here-to-here, nowexitthatscreen, and don'tsaveyet kind of tutorial.

Guess I am thinking of the kind of detailed 1,2,3,4, ... etc guides I have seen in the past from the likes of Vorwoda, Emma, Grumpy, Yu-Gi and OldeCow69. Here is an example of one by MeghanAJH that is in that style, about HOM Mist Form Mannequins .

It's another form of spoon-feeding perhaps but . . . . . . different learning style; or 'why I make lists' . .
I have noticed I can get 'round the CS with those kind of directions and learn stuff along the way but the 'this tab does this' kind of tutorial generally does not work so well . . . prompts a lot of 'so what? questions mostly.

So . . . long-winded way of saying that if anyone wanted to take all this and pull it together into a detailed step-by-step format, I reckon it would be most welcome to mod makers and mod user/tweakers alike.


And thank you for the other replies - Nerra, Alexx, Larissa Mem and FallenPaladin.

Just think of the CS as a new game without a manual.

Just play around with things, you can't damage the original data, as saving makes an esp file.


Little bit of basic info. This is from memory, since I've not used the MW editor for ages, but I am diving into the Oblivion one.

There is a Item Levelled List tab. This gives a listing of all levelled lists defined in the game. If you right click on one of them, you get the options to make a new one, rename, delete and use info (tells you what objects are using this levelled list).
Making a new one is a good start.
Top left (I think) should be where you key in a unique name for your list. Do that, and then click OK button (or save). Well done, you've just made your first levelled list, even though nothing is in it!
Locate your levelled list, and double click on it to edit.
Move the window over to one side so you can clearly see the window with all the tabs.
Now click on one of the tab categories, such as Weapons. You can now drag and drop items from this list into the list area on the window to one side. As you do this, they appear in the list area, and are given a default level 1. If you add to an existing levelled list, then it's given a default of the highest level.


Levelled lists are not scary, but it's a shame that there isn't a preview option, like in the OB CS. This let's you test the results of the levelled list to destruction within the CS, instead of putting them in a container and keep popping into the game to see the results.

Yeah, . . . " Move now, route to follow."

But thank you for that. Seems to me we do need a tutorial that would wrap together this very useful guidance, pieces in other threads, what Larissa pointed out page 44-45 of the Mod Maker's Manual v.2 and whatever one might find in Scripting for Dummies when we get to it.

In the meantime, is there a recommended procedure for merging mods with levelled lists?
I recall someone posting about this a year or so back, pointing out it was do-able but a little less straightforward than a normal Merge.
Would anyone care to list the steps for that?

Does one not do it in Mash? I will take a look at the Idiot's guide and see if the idiot who wrote it can make sense of it.

Don't know if this is how it works in 0.65 but I don't think it's changed that much . . .

1. Look inside your c:\programs\BethesdaSoftworks\Morrowind\Mopy folder, for your "MashedList.esp" file, packed inside the "Extras" folder.

2. Copy it into your Data Files--the same place it would go if it were a mod. .

3. Check off the box next to the MashedList.esp and change its date so that it loads towards the very end of your mod list.

4. To get levelled items into your Mashed List, right click on the MashedList.esp, click "Import," and click "Merged Lists." You should see Mash run a little calculation merging your lists, and it will report when it's done.

That's it!

Two different things: merging two or more mods (containing levelled lists) into one mod and merging the levelled lists of all the separate mods in one's load list.

Sorry about that. Not confident enough of this answer to leave it here so I'll let someone who knows more about it take a stab.

Here's my input, largely just PirateLord's post reconstituted. It needs a lot of improvement (Step 12, anybody?) and could also use an intro explaining just what a levelled list is.
This one is designed for items, but could fit creatures to with a little expansion.

1. Start up the CS and open a master file.
2. Click the tab labelled 'Leveled Item' (written in blue in this screenshot)
3. All the existing levelled lists will be displayed in the Object Window
4. Right-click on any one of these existing levelled lists, and a dialogue will appear offering you the option to create a New levelled list (Click New as shown here)
5. An entry dialogue will appear on screen (Like this)
6. Enter an appropriate ID for your levelled list (in the box circled red), this will be the name by which Morrowind knows your levelled list. You should use a prefix for your ID which identifies it as yours and ensures that it will be unique, the initials of your own name followed by an underscore would make a good prefix.
7. There is an entry box (the box circled green) which will allow you to specify the percentage chance that there will be no item given when this levelled list is called upon (for instance, when the player opens a container containing an instance of your levelled list).
For example, if you set this number to 50 then the levelled list will be just as likely to give no item as it is to give an item. If you set it to 0 then an item will always be given and if you set it to 100 then there will never be an item given.
8. On the right-hand side, there is a table with two columns marked 'PC Level' and 'Item Name' - this is the place where you put things that you want to be in the levelled list. To add an item to the list, click the tab in the objects window that corresponds to the type of item that you want to add (If you want to add a weapon, click the tab marked 'Weapon') the select a weapon from the list that appears and 'drag and drop' (left-click, do not release the mouse button, drag item over list, release mouse button) it into your levelled list.
9. Now that you've added an item to the list, it is automatically given a 'PC Level' value of 1. Triple-click the entry to allow you to change this value. Set it to whatever level that you want it to appear, taking into consideration what is the most appropriate level for a player to find the item that you have added.
10. You can continue adding as many items as you like.
Here's a cool tip: If you add two of the same item, than it is twice as likely to turn up as it would be normally, and if you add three it's three times as likely, and so on...
Here's another cool tip: You can add levelled lists inside other levelled lists!
11. When you are done adding items, you need to look at the tickboxes on the left. If the one labelled 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' (circled Purple) is ticked than an item will be picked from the list on the right with a 'PC Level' value which is the same as or less than the Player's level. If it is not ticked, than an item will be picked only if it has a 'PC level' value which is the same as the players.
12. The other tickbox (circled black) does something... or something. Probably.
13. The other tickbox marked 'Blocked' isn't really too important and will have no impact ingame. It's function is to prevent anyone using the CS to edit your mod from editing your levelled list - but they can just untick this box anyway if they really want to change it.
14. That's it. Press OK, and your levelled list is complete.

Hello,

If you put the 3 same leveled lists in one container:
- if the tickbow is checked, the 3 items will be 3 different items from the leveled list
- else, you'll get the 3 same items

To merge mod1 and mod2, which both modify leveled lists, you need a special procedure only if they both modify the same leveled list:
- select mod1 and mod2 in Wrye Mash
- generate Mashed lists.esp as Larissa Mem wrote
- open the TESCS and launch it with mod1 + mod2 + Mashed lists
- merge the 3 mods together

In fact, you should do the same, but with objects, if you want to merge 2 mods that modifies the same object, and that you wantr to keep the 2 modifications in one merged mod:
- select mod1 and mod2 in TESTool
- generate merged objects.esp
- open the TESCS and launch it with mod1 + mod2 + merged objects
- merge the 3 mods together
For example, if you want to merge a mod which modifies the head of the NPC and a mod that adds new weapons to some NPC, you'll need to do this. But don't ask me why someone would want to merge 2 mods which are so different...

Bjam
Happy to be back after some holidays!

Edit: BTW, great tutorial Earth_Wyrm!

So, as I understand it, and as I wrote before I deleted what I wrote, if I have Canadian Ice's Elegant Gowns mod, and kalikut's black hooded robes mod, and I want to merge them, I would merge them as I would ordinarily do in the CS. What will happen is that I will see those little container thingies in the levelled list Object Window--one line for Ice's Gowns, with some number of containers, and one line for kalikut's robes.

Say I want to decrease the number of total gowns and robes I run into in a given game (and I do ). Is the following correct?

1. I can either lower the chance of encountering each of them by lowering the number in the chance column in each list.

2. Or I can (theoretically?) put one set of levelled lists inside another so that I have divided my chances of running into each of them in half (?).

I have only a vague idea of how the second method would work or why one would choose it over the first method? I take it it involves the mysterious black tickbox. If someone could elaborate that would be helpful. Actually, even more helpful would be seeing an example of a levelled list inside a levelled list, and having an explanation of how to tweak it and/or why it exists. (If it's really infrequent, presumably I don't need to worry about it?) The point of this is so I can edit lists in mods that exist already.

I really should just go try this but I owe Mandamus some work on the Romance Mod

No.
1- the 2 mods create new leveled lists to put the new items, or only one of the two mods modifies already exisisting leveled lists, or the two mods modify already existing lists, but not the same one
a- the new leveled lists are put in new crates, or the two mods have modified different crates from the original game
-> each kind of modified / new crates will have items from one mod but not the other, a simple merge will be enough to have the two mods working together
b- the new leveled lists are put in the same crate in the two mods
-> you'll get only the new lists of the most recent mod: it's always the same rule, only the change of the mod loaded last will be present in game. If you want to get rid of this problem, you must use the 'merge objects' function of TesTool. However, you don't need to use 'merge leveled lists' because no list are modified by both mods, they are only put in the same crate.
2- the two mods modify the same list
-> you must use the 'merge leveled lists' function of Wrye Mash / TesTool (+ Resequencer) to get the two mods working together

No.
The number in the left column are not the 'chance of appearing number', they are the 'PC level number'. They indicates at which level of the PC those items will appear. The chance of making appearing an item more than another is made by putting the same item more than once in the list. Note that the items can appear when 'their' level is <= or only = to the PC level:


Yes.

Yes. Go back to work!

Now some example:

level list1
1 item1
1 item1
1 item1
1 item2
1 item2
3 item1
3 item2
3 item3

If you put 1 list like this in a container and no tickbox is checked:
- at level 1and 2, you will have 60% chance of getting item1 and 40% for item2
- at level 3 and more, you will have 33% chance of getting item1 , item2 or item3

If you put 1 list like this in a container and the tickbox 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' only is checked:
- at level 1 and 2, it is the same than before
- at level 3 and more, you'll have 50% cahnce of getting item1, 37,5% (3/8) chance of getting item2, and only 12,5% (1/8) chance of getting item3

If you put 1 list like this in a container and the tickbox 'calculate for each item in count' is checked:
- it is exactly the same as if it was not checked, because there is only ONE leveled list in the container

If you put 5 lists like this in a container and no tickbox is checked:
- the container calculates which items should appear for the first list (see above for 1 list), then it creates the same item for all the 5 lists

If you put 5 list like this in a container and the tickbox 'calculate for each item in count' only is checked:
- the container calculates which items should appear for the first list (see above for 1 list), then it redoes the same thing for the 2nd list, then for the 3rd, 4th and 5th. In this case, you can get 5 different items (or the 5 same items, it's only a matter of statistic, depends if you're lucky or no)

There is also a box 'chance none'
- if you put 0, you'll always get one of the item from the list
- if you put for example 50, you'll have 50% chance that an item appear, if you put 75; you'll have 25% chance that an item appear

Now about list inside list... well it is the same thing, but with more possibilities:

list1 is the same as above, with 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' and 'calculate for each item in count' checked

level list2
1 item1
1 item1
1 item2
1 item2
1 item3
3 item1
3 item2
3 item3
5 item3
5 item4

list2 also have 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' and 'calculate for each item in count' checked

level list3
1 list1
1 list1
1 list2
3 list1
3 list2
5 list1
5 list2
5 list2
10 list2
10 item5

list3 also have 'Calculate from all levels <= PC's level' and 'calculate for each item in count' checked

you put 10 leveled lists 'list3' in one container, and all list have 'chance none' = 0
- level 1 and 2:
list1-> 66% to be chosen and in this list, item1 has 60%chance to appear, and item2 40%
list2-> 33% to be chosen and in this list, item1 has 40%chance to appear, item2 40%, and item3 20%
so we get finally:
item1: 0.66 * 0.60 + 0.33 * 0.40 = 53.33% chance of appearing
item2: 0.66 * 0.40 + 0.33 * 0.40 = 40%
item3: 0.66 * 0 + 0.33 * 0.20 = 6.66%

- level 3 and 4:
list1-> 60% chance to be chosen, in this list, item1: 50%, item2: 37.5%, item3: 12.5%
list2-> 40% chance to be chosen and in this list, item1: 37.5%, item2: 37,5%, item3: 25%
which gives:
item1: 0.60 * 0.50 + 0.40 * 0.375 = 45%
item2: 0.60 * 0.375 + 0.40 * 0.375 = 37.5%
item3: 0.60 * 0.125 + 0.40 * 0.25 = 17.5%

- level 5 to 9:
list1-> 50% chance to be chosen, in this list, item1: 50%, item2: 37.5%, item3: 12.5%
list2-> 50% chance to be chosen and in this list, item1: 30%, item2: 30%, item3: 30%, item4: 10%
which gives:
item1: 0.50 * 0.50 + 0.50 * 0.30 = 40%
item2: 0.50 * 0.375 + 0.50 * 0.30 = 33.75%
item3: 0.50 * 0.125 + 0.50 * 0.30 = 21.25%
item4: 0.5 * 0 + 0.5 * 0.1 = 5%

-level 10 and more
list1-> 40% chance to be chosen, in this list, item1: 50%, item2: 37.5%, item3: 12.5%
list2-> 50% chance to be chosen and in this list, item1: 30%, item2: 30%, item3: 30%, item4: 10%
item5-> 10% chance to be chosen (directly from list3)
which gives:
item1: 0.40 * 0.50 + 0.50 * 0.30 = 35%
item2: 0.40 * 0.375 + 0.50 * 0.30 = 30%
item3: 0.40 * 0.125 + 0.50 * 0.30 = 20%
item4: 0.40 * 0 + 0.5 * 0.1 = 5%
item5: 10%

Now, after the easy ( ) mathematical explanation, how to edit list:

- adding new item to a leveled lists, and chosing the level at which they should appear:

Note that in step 9, instead of the triple-click, you should better do only one click, the press F2, then type the level that you want.
- removing an item already present in a leveld list:
click on the line of the item in the leveled list, then press 'del'

It was really a lot of time since I last made so much statistics, I hope I didn't made too much mistake.

Bjam
Edit: a few mistakes...

Ohmygosh. This is helpful but also a mind-bender, bjam! I have Case 1.a (I don't know which one.) I'm going to play with this tonight and look at your statistics. Then I will plan to cry into my pillow for several hours.

Hello,

I'm not sure that I've been clear.
There are 3 different possibilities: 1a, 1b and 2, what comes after the -> is just the explanation about what you'll get in each case:

1- the 2 mods create new leveled lists to put the new items, or only one of the two mods modifies already exisisting leveled lists, or the two mods modify already existing lists, but not the same one

a- the new leveled lists are put in new crates, or the two mods have modified different crates from the original game

-> each kind of modified / new crates will have items from one mod but not the other, a simple merge will be enough to have the two mods working together

b- the new leveled lists are put in the same crate in the two mods

-> you'll get only the new lists of the most recent mod: it's always the same rule, only the change of the mod loaded last will be present in game. If you want to get rid of this problem, you must use the 'merge objects' function of TesTool. However, you don't need to use 'merge leveled lists' because no list are modified by both mods, they are only put in the same crate.

2- the two mods modify the same list

-> you must use the 'merge leveled lists' function of Wrye Mash / TesTool (+ Resequencer) to get the two mods working together

I'm really very sorry to make you cry.

But I'm sure that if you try to make your lists, you'll understand very quickly how it works. Just begin by making a few simple list, then, when you'll manage to do this, try to do more complicate things with list inside list (inside other list, which are also inside other list, which are also inside... and you can go on very long ).

Now I also have a question: what happen if I create list1 which contains list2 which contaisn list3 which contains list1? I'll have to try something like this, but I think that I'm going to enjoy the pleasure of game freezing / CTD.

Edit: just want to add that the most important part of my previous post is probably everything about the list1 ALONE. If you know how it works for one list only, you'll probably understand how it works for list inside list.

Bjam

GULP


OK. I need something right now to take my mind off other things, and to releave me from certain "beating my head against the wall" excercises which I have been engaged in.

Also, I seem to enjoy getting long-winded and adding a lot of detail, for some odd reason.

Also, my other projects are large and appeal only to like-minded players, and are still a way down the road till release, and I would like to do something for this excellent community which people will find useful.



Therefor, since no one else has stepped forward, I volunteer to be the one to attempt to bring all of the available information together into a user-friendly and clearly explained, but yet complete and detailed, how-too file such as Ronin49 wants to see made.

If this is agreeable to you all, I shall begin the task, and hopefully there will be some who won't mind taking the time to critique it periodically and offer suggestions. I will need info and suggestions of a technical nature to keep the guide accurate, of an esthetic nature to keep it organized and pleasing, and of an ergonomic nature to keep it easy and fun to use, so that even those who know little about the subject may succesfully create and use leveled lists in their mods, or tweek existing leveled lists to their liking.


Does this suggestion seem acceptable?




Nav

Let's try a little more "english" explaination and example.

You want to make a NPC, and give him a random weapon. So, you need to use a levelled list.

A basic list would be to put each weapon into a single levelled list, and then each weapon has an equal chance of being choosen (so if you put 100 items in the list, it's 1 in 100).

But that's a bit boring.

Now you want to keep the magic weapons seperate from standard weapons. So, you split up the levelled list into 2, one with all the magic weapons, and one with all the standard weapons.
You can now modify the main list and put in one standard list, and one magic list. What you've done is basically the same as putting every item into one list.
Testing in game, you notice that magic items are being choosen too often.
If you go back into the editor, you can add more standard lists into the main list. For each standard list you add, that chance of a magic item decreases.

That now works as you want, but you don't want a ebony weapon to appear while you are level 1.
Now you can do two options, a tedius job of adding a level number to every item. But there is a better method.
Make a seperate levelled list for Iron, Steel, Dwemer, Glass, Ebony, etc. Just keep the levels at 1.
Put all these new levelled lists into the standard weapon list.
Again, what you've got is the same as before, it's just a little more easier to read.
Now you can add level numbers next to each levelled list. So you could make Steel level 3, Ebony Level 15, etc, etc.
What this now means is that the Ebony weapons won't be picked as equipment until the player reaches level 15.
If yo don't tick the <=Player, then it'll only use Ebony when you are level 15, but if you do tick the box, then anything will be choosen, as long as the level assigned to each item is <= the players level.

If you wanted to remove a few weapons, or add some more, you've now got a more organised filing system of locating the levelled list. With the lists being smaller, it's much easier to work with.

So list examples would be:
Name: MainEquipmentList

1 - StandardWeapon
1 - StandardWeapon
1 - StandardWeapon
1 - MagicWeapon

So, 25% chance of a magic item. This list you give to the NPC.

Then the StandardList would be:

1 - StandardIron
3 - StandardSteel
5 - StandardDwemer
10 - StandardGlass
12 - StandardEbony
15 - StandardDaedric

Notice the levels added to each list.

Then the StandardIron would be along the lines off:
1 - IronDagger
1 - IronWarhammer
1 - IronClaymore
1 - IronAxe
1 - IronBattleAxe

Each list above will be along the same lines

So, you've got small, nice neat lists instead of:
1 - IronDagger
1 - IronWarhammer
1 - IronClaymore
1 - IronAxe
1 - IronBattleAxe
1 - IronDagger
1 - IronWarhammer
1 - IronClaymore
1 - IronAxe
1 - IronBattleAxe
1 - IronDagger
1 - IronWarhammer
1 - IronClaymore
1 - IronAxe
1 - IronBattleAxe
3 - AllSteelItems (like Iron above)
3 - AllSteelItems (like Iron above)
3 - AllSteelItems (like Iron above)
5 - AllDwemerItems (like Iron above)
5 - AllDwemerItems (like Iron above)
5 - AllDwemerItems (like Iron above)
10 - AllGlassItems (like Iron above)
10 - AllGlassItems (like Iron above)
10 - AllGlassItems (like Iron above)
12 - AllEbonyItems (ike Iron above)
12 - AllEbonyItems (ike Iron above)
12 - AllEbonyItems (ike Iron above)
15 - AllDaedricItems (like Iron above)
15 - AllDaedricItems (like Iron above)
15 - AllDaedricItems (like Iron above)
Then repeat all the items above again for magic weapons


As you can see, this method is ungainly. Reason for each item repeated 3 times is to increase the chance of those items appearing.

If you wanted to remove the Dwemer Warhammer, you'd have to remove the 3 entries in the big list above, or in the better example, go to your StandardDwemerWeapons, and remove the one item in there.

Hope that helps a bit. All I would say, is don't panic with Levelled lists, they are easy and not really confusing.

Sounds 'triffic.
Thanks, Ev.

Sounds good, very good indeed to me . . . many thanks Eveeran_Knight. Outstanding!

I would be more than happy to help with the ergonomics where I could and check for comprehension - if I can understand something written about the CS, anyone can . . . [bit like Napoleon's Mameluke bodyguard ]

And to Alexx, Fallen Paladin, Larissa Mem, PirateLord, Earth_Wyrm and bjam - many thanks for the responses. I'm hopin' folk will hang in there and help Eveeran_Knight pull this together.
Earth_Wyrm - can those Screenshots be recycled into the tutorial?


Strikes me it might have a few components, something like this, much of which has already been addressed here?

1. - levelled lists overview? - what they are, why they are, how they work and what the various utilities do with them (in outline)

2. - managing your levelled list mods? - just the very basics - simple steps and rules of thumb for any mod user of what they need to do to keep this sorted out in their game and how to safely merge mods that have levelled lists

3. - tweaking (editing) LL mods? - again for the user - how to edit, modify, adjust, combine, build a personal LL loot mod etc - the full-meal deal going from simple to complex - step-by-step- rules of thumb etc - how to test?

4. - using LL in your mod? - how-to, assuming perhaps better CS knowledge than # 3 - covering much the same issues (copy, cut n'paste or internal links) but from the building from nothing point-of-view?


Known sources, beyond the excellent material in this thread:

- page 44-45 of the Mod Maker's Manual v.2 (Larissa Mem)

- page 130 in both Doc and PDF versions of Morrowind Scripting for Dummies (8th Edition)

- other pieces in other tutorials we may yet find?

- this older but useful thread started by NeoCarnageZX and Archived Here and similarly,
a copy of the (WIP) TES Plugin Tool - cleaning plugins, merging leveled lists thread and
[REL] Leveled List Resequencer v1_0 for TESTool HERE,
as well as Wrye's well-documented how-Mash-does-it posts and stuff.

- other recent threads:
Levelled Loot Lists, Mods that expand them has some comment about LL in response to questions I think
Save Games and Leveled Lists Do they change? has some important information about scripting and LL that would maybe need referencing and a caveat in the building LL section(s)?


I have some questions - clarification of some of the content already posted - but will come back to that. . . .


This is great news, Eveeran_Knight, thanks . . .

Absolutely, though you might want to put 'em on a more permanent server 'lest I accidentally delete them at some point when cleaning up my photobucket account.

OK, pretty clear thanks and, by the sound of it, one more reason to be very glad for the existence of Wrye Mash which reliably automates this for the non-CS deft user.

A question of clarification - in the first case - does the process work just like that for multiples - mod1 + mod2 + mod3 + mod4 + mod5 etc - or do they need to be merged in sequentially, one at a time?

Secondly, let's assume I have no idea which level lists are affected by which mods, a situation which is pretty general I reckon, what is the safest 'best practice'? [And assuming further that this new player is best staying away from much tinkering in the CS for a week or so yet.]
Would it be:
- in TESTool, generate merged objects.esp for the mods to be merged
- in Wrye Mash, select the mods and merged objects.esp
- generate Mashed lists.esp
- open the TESCS and launch it with mods to be merged + merged objects + Mashed lists
- merge these together
- [edit] clean the merged mod

And if so, would that not be a sensible way to merge mods on a routine basis, just in case?

Edit:content

Hello,

You can merge in one time as many (or as much? I think I should really have listen better to my english teachers ) mods as you want.
You just need to create the 'merged leveld lists esp' for all the mods you want to merge, then merge them all together with the TESCS.

That's what I always do when I want to merge mods. If the merged objects and merged leveled lists mods are not useful for merging some mods together, it won't be a problem if they are used. The final merged mods will be exactly the same as if you didn't use them. So if you want to be sure to have a safe merging, you should always do that.

Bjam

No problem. I should have listened to my English teachers too (that would be my mother, grammar Dictator). She thinks I should still listen to her all the time.
So, you can m 8600 erge as many mods at one time as you want.




Wow, that's incredibly helpful. Okay. One (perhaps obvious) footnote: I presume the last step would be to clean the merged mod, because merging creates those extra cells out in the ocean or wherever?

Hello,

Thank you for correcting my mistakes.

Yes, of course.
Edit:

Do we have the same mother? Or are they all the same?
Oh... I guess that's what a good mother should do...

Bjam

Sorry for the delay, I had to go back in the hospital for a few days again. I had two surgerys in two days. Whew! That was an ordeal.

Cool! Since no one objects, I'll just get started on this.

I won't be able to work all out on it due to having medical appointments and radiation and chemo treatments on top of work, but I should still be able to progress fairly quickly on getting the first draft done.

With all the info already provided here, I will block out a basic tut and present it for y'all to examine and critique.

Then we'll start getting the kinks worked out of it and polishing it.


Thankyou all for offering to help, and for entrusting me with this quest.




Nav

Hey, two days is nothing on a big ship. Look after your health as that is much more important. You have my continued good wishes for that.
The rest sounds good . . . as and when. Shout when you need some assaistance. Looks like there are enough of us interested in this to make help fairly readily available.

Meanwhile, we'll just keep posting questions for the experts to answer and you to include, si?

Couppla things folk contributing to this may want to give some thought to. No urgency but doing so may save some wheel-spinning down the road.

1. First is, what format(s)? Don't really want to see Eveeran_Knight get all finished only to have someone say it needs to be something else that is more useful, usable, pretty etc . . .
Relates a bit to #2.

2. Where is it going? See the discussion over here - Mod Tutorials and Utilities, only because it informs what we might want to do with this one. Me, I'm for getting it sorted out, using it for a couppla weeks so it gets some 'peer review' from folk, revising as necessary and then distributing it as widely as possible for download and/or use in people's tut forums, with a version number and a free-use statement on it . . . but that's me and someone else may have a better idea for other good reasons?

Hello,

I think an html page could be the best choice: allows links to useful tools / screenshots

It is a good way to make the tutorial. The most difficult could be to track all the different versions, but I don't think that there will be a lot.

Bjam

Alrighty, so let's say this forthcoming tutorial has made me very brave about dabbling in the CS and I have a new, very valuable 'shiny' that I want to place into the game world but I wish to have it 'drop' only very rarely. Based on what has been explained above, I can achieve that rarity in a variety of ways that lower the probabilities of the shiny appearing:

1. specify that the item will drop only at several = to the PC level; not at any <= to the PC level

2. place the item in a levelled list with many different other items (lower value); lots of alchemical ingredients, misc items, cheap armour and weapons etc - many items

3. increase the count of the other different items in the list; many item1, item1, item1 etc

4. using the 'chance none' box, select a very high value - say, 98 and there will be a 2% chance that the item will appear

5. place the 'shiny' in only one levelled list inside another levelled list that contained many other lists, any of which could roll when the upper level list executes.

6. various combinations of the strategies #1-5 above - should be about ten or so permutations there.



In general terms, is that about right as far as strategies to adopt to achieve rarity?
Are there others that I have missed?

If I can get this straight, I will edit this post to reflect any corrections, thanks.

Hello,


It can be a good way, however, if the player is not exactly at the right level when he looks for the item (i.e. when he opens a barrel, or a chest...), he'll never get it. So you should be very careful if you decide to do this.

Probably one of the best way, just put a lot of cheap items with one powerful item in a list, so this powerful item will have a very low chance to appear.

It is nearly the same as 2. What really counts is the number of high level item and the level of low level item, not what the low level items are. For example, if list 1 have 4 identical cheap food and 1 diamond, you'll have 25% of getting the diamond. If the list 2 contains 4 differents cheap food and one diamond, you'll also have 25% chance of getting the diamond.

The problem if you do this is that there are 98% chance that you get nothing, whereas with the way you descvribe above, you'll have at least a few cheap items in the container.

you can make one list called 'food', which contains 3 types of lists: one 'cheap food', one 'medium food' and one 'great food'. Then you put for example the 'cheap food' list 10 times in the 'food' list, the 'medium food', 3 times, and the 'great food' only once. If you do this, you'll have a lot of chance of getting cheap food, and a very low chance of getting great food. Of course, you can combine this with the 'chance none' to make the great food harder to find. And you'll have to play with the levels at which each items in each list can appear. So you can get a very low chance to have the best irem at very low level, but it won't be impossible, and at the opposite, you'll have a greater chance of getting the best item when you're at a high level, but without making the cheap item impossible to get.

I think that you've covered all the different possibilities. The hardest part when you make a levelled list is to know what you want to get, not to make it. For example, do you want to get a few of the best item at a low level, or non at all? Do you want still some possibilities to have cheap item at high level or not? At a high level, do you want the best item appearing nearly everytime, or only more frequently than at low level, but with the low level items that keep their chance to be the most frequent appearing items?
When you exactly what you want to get in your levelled list, you have really done the biggest part of the work.

Those were not correction, maybe just some 'precision'.

Bjam

Wow, this is all very nice
Wish I'd seen this thread before.

One thing I'd like to add, but I could be wrong about it and would like to know if I am, is that if you use TESTool and it's resequencer to merge lists any duplicate items in a list will be ignored.

example:
Your list contains
1 iron dagger
1 iron axe
3 steel sword
3 steel sword
3 steel axe

When you merge your plugins lists together the two level 3 steel swords will be turned into 1 steel sword to look like this:

1 iron dagger
1 iron axe
3 steel sword
3 steel axe

So if you're trying to add a slew of items, or creatures, and make it all random, you do not want to put a dozen of the same item in a list, at the same level, to try and make it more likely to be picked by the game. I've seen this done before, and I'm sure I've done it before. It's sloppy, and the creative use of multiple lists inside of lists will help you more.

Can anyone conferm if I'm wrong or not about this?

Has this actually been confirmed to be a true 'per cent' value? In my own experience experimenting with LL's, the 'Chance None' doesn't always work perfectly. I'd put 90% Chance None, slap five units of the LL in a crate, and I'd still get 3 or 4 items most of the time. I started to suspect that the chance is out of 255, or something like that, but I couldn't reliably confirm that (on my slow computer, it's difficult to do extensive testing).

I found that the best way to tweak the chances was to use the lists-within-a-list method, possibly with some empty lists thrown in for a better chance of getting nothing.

Thanks, Daedin Roxer, that's very useful to know.

I am hoping someoene will post the answer to your true 'per cent' value question.

Meanwhile, blockhead has confirmed here - nested leveled lists question - that: Also good to know. The test thread and test plugin download are here - Need Someone with Tribunal and not Bloodmoon, Need a Tester - should you wish to check it out yourself. Thanks, blockhead.

Looks like we are still waiting on expert opinion on the true 'per cent' value question.

It seem possible that , for personal reasons, Eveeran_Knight might be unable to complete this as he originally thought?

Anyone else with the requisite knowledge interested in pulling this together and filling a pretty big hole in the tutorial bucket?

Ok! Noobie input!

Well! Not really a noobie as I've been playing Morrowind since it first came out; however, I'm not a modder and know very little about the CS; but, I am very interested in merging mod lists so that they work better, rather than just clicking them in an order with the last mod being clicked gets-the-worm.

All of the above comments, (I read all of them) made my head spin with what you could do by doing this, this, this, and that, that, and that. What I got is that the CS is not very user friendly for someone that doesn't have a Masters Degree in Math, Computer Programing, and Computer Sciences. Maybe there would need to be some other Master's Degrees thrown in for good measure as-well, I don't know? And that's the whole issue, I don't know.

But, this thread is greatly appreciated in the desire to actually present this, for people that only want to play this marvelous game with all the marvelous mods available with as much ease as possible. After all, I am sure that those who make/create mods do not do so only for the benefit of their peers. I shall assume that the greater number of people that enjoy these mods is the ideal goal of every modder. That everyone here is taking/making this effort to do this very thing confirms this assumption.

I've also noticed that the majority of people on this forum, actually take the time to help people with "dumb" questions. This is very comforting for those of us without Masters Degrees. (My Joke!)

So what "kind" of input can I add to this? Well! Trying to understand the CS is out (for me anyway). I can understand Testool and "merge list" function as it's fairly straightforward; but, then it breaks down and becomes complicated as it doesn't always have the desired effect. The merging dialogue is not game friendly, and many times the merge objects, lose items that dissappear, ingame.

I think that the best solution is Wry Mash; however, I have yet to figure out how it merges? I think that this program, and that thread on it seems the most promising, especially since my past experience with it has given me confidence in it's inate abilities to preserve game stability when every thing else failed. Including some of the "dumb" things that I did with the game. Lol.

I hope that this thread isn't given up on or lost as I believe that the majority of Morrowind players really need it and your help!

Keep On Truckin'

Bump?

Lemme get this straight .. I'm not very good at statistic ._.

Chance none is done once .. every item in the list have equal chance of appearing based on whats left from that percent? What I mean is, if there is 1 item in the list, and chance none = 20, that item have 80% chance appearing .. and if there's 2 items, then each item have 40% chance to appear?

Question, let say I have 1 NPC ... and I want him to sell 2 random items .. How do I set his LL so that he
a) have 1 item to sell at least;
have both items to sell;
c) sometimes have no items to sell at all.
d) combination of all 3 above.

Answer:
a) put those random items on 1 list, chance none = 0
have 2 LL; LL1 and LL2 .. put LL2 twice in LL1 and assign LL1 to the NPC. Chance none = 0
c) same with (a) but set chance none to something else > 0
d) same as (. chance none > 0

Am I right? or way off? I *think* ( and (d) is waaaaaaaaaay off @_@ ... but I really wanted the answer for (d)

Okay, I think I have a decent handle on what the leveled lists do. I'm learning the hard way. But I have a question, How do you add multiple items in a leveled list, for instance.
Arrows- How do you make more than 1 show up in a leveled list?

I understand how to do it in a container "20" in the count column, or "-20" for a merchant container.

BUMP for Miran.

Just a bump to keep this from disappearing. Can anybody but this into a tutorial format?

That was the original hope and there was a volunteer at one time, subsequently unable to complete it for pressing personal reasons.
Point is, if someone was willing to do this, it's up for grabs and would be helpful it seems.

Unfortunately, you cannot add multiple items in a levelled list (like 20 arrows), this feature was added into Oblivion though.
Makes adding marksmen ammo annoying as loot.

I've got lots of experience with levelled lists (they are not actually that difficult), so I'm happy to answer questions put here, but I don't have time for making a tutorial.

Thanks, PirateLord, answering questions is itself a big help.


Also, cross-referencing to several resources on scripting and levelled lists:

Scripted Leveled Lists at UESP Wiki

Is it possible to add leveled items through script?, a recent ES mod forum thread

Anyone with tutorial building skills who is willing to do this?

*sighs* Well, I'm starting to muck around in the CS, and of course I want more spears for my character to play with, and so the Leveled List rears its ugly head in the face of my CS ignorance.

A dummy guide would be very much appreciated.