Based on the title of this post, you're probably wondering what this *DISCOVERY* I've made is all about (if it hasn't already been established). Yes, it involves quicksaves, but it's not what you think. You see, people, I've recently been experimenting with the quicksaving feature of the Morrowind engine, trying to find a way to circumvent random CTDs, and I've found that while the quicksaves themselves tend to get corrupted much quicker than manual save files, I never use them for loading a game. Instead, I always use the manual saves that I create (always saving into a separate slot in the menu). Given that, you probably all wonder why the quicksaves are necessary. The answer, according to my testing results are quite simple: quicksaving every 10-15 minutes (without actually loading the quicsave file in the start menu screen) actually keeps up the game stability. So firstly, here's the system I've tested with:

System Specs (rather modest for today's standards):

emachines T2825 (with Windows XP Home Edition)
120 GB Disk Space
GeForce FX 5200 OC
1 GB RAM
DirectX 9.0b

Test Results:

(No Quicksaves, Manual Saving every 30-60 minutes):

# of CTDs when playing normally: 35 (over a series of two weeks of testing with 5 hours per session and one session per day)

(Quicksaving Every 10-15 Minutes, Manual Saving every 30-60 minutes):

# of CTDs when playing normally: 0 (that's right, **goose eggs** over that same amount of testing time!!!!)

If anyone is having trouble with game stability (given that the CTDs are involving the OS and not plugins), I couldn't possibly recommend this method enough. I hope that the community finds this "little secret" of the game engine handy.

P.S.: As a side note, some mod author (I think it was DoctorTeath, who created the Oblivion autosaver) discovered the exact same anomaly in the Oblivion game engine. Being that both Morrowind and Oblivion are CPU-intensive games, this would actually make sense, since there is a whole world of data that needs to be kept track of (much greater than most games released at nearly the same times). Essentially, Morrowind and Oblivion (as all CPU intensive games) are basically pressure-cookers when it comes to their data management. Given their natures, the games take in loads of data until the point where they lose track of it and, potentially, blow up (not really blowing up, but actually giving the infamous "Black Screen of Death" characteristic of a crash). The quicksaving mechanism (or any save for that matter, but I chose quicksave because it is, ...well, a **QUICK** action) is actually what allows the pressure inside these "pressure cookers" of games to seep out, therefore extending the time which a single session of Morrowind can last almost indefinitely.

EDIT: I'm sure that I am probably gonna receive hundreds of posts and e-mails asking me about this, so let me repeat myself on THE one important item about carrying out the testing of my theory on quicksaves and the Morrowind game engine:

Never-ever-ever-ever-ever....-EVER load a quicksave file in the Morrowind game menu!

Use quicksaves only for keeping stability. Manual saves are best for "game restore points".

Other than that, ask away on the questions.

For the record, here is the list of external tools I ran the tests with:

Morrowind Enhanced v1.6
Morrowind Script Extender v0.9.4x (latest version)
FPS Optimizer
Executable Optimizer v1.7 (by Timeslip)

Over 100 different plugins (All carefully arranged in Load Order via Wrye Mash. Some of them are my own creations, some never released publicly... )

EDIT: I am no longer using EXE Optimizer due to game stability appearing to be more substantial without it (I use an AMD processor). For stability, I am now using a custom quicksave macro via MGE (if nothing else, I dl'ed MGE for the ability to display extra HUD bars and utilize keypressing functions that couldn't be utilized by vanilla MW, due to hardcoded limitations). For this reason, I am now also using MWSE v0.9.2a, also with no apparent issues (there's only one plugin on the internet that I know of which uses functions from v.0.9.4 anyway, so the benefit in using that version was not quite as great as reverting to the prior version AND using the functionality of MGE) The only things I really use MGE for is the quicksave macro mentioned above, the enhanced performance provided by DirectX 9, the ability to take screenshots in jpeg format, Yacoby's extra HUD display mods (great thanks to him for his work on those!) and the "Toggle Sneak" mod, which are still very sufficient reasons for using MGE on my side of the coin...

EDIT 2: I used version 0.9.4x in testing my hypothesis, NOT version 0.4.x! Sorry for any confusion this may have caused...

EDIT 3: MWE is also no longer a part of my loaded mods. Thanks to kova, I have confirmed that it was at the root of my quicksaves getting corrupted (and it might be the cause for the rest of you also, depending on whether or not you're using it and whether or not you can reproduce that same effect).


-E. Faust: Avatar of Metal

That really doesn't make any sense to me, but if it really works, great. We'd need some other people to test this as well to see.

It's perfectly understandable that this concept sounds foreign, but I can at least say it worked on my side of the deal. In all seriousness, I really want to see if other MW players can reproduce my results (the results may not necessarily be the game "never crashing", but depending on a number of system factors, the method could reduce that chance of a random crash to very close to zero (over a long period of time)).

Hm, this is a very interesting find!

I'd love to help you out, but as it is I have a Frankenstein's Monster of a MW install with all sorts of .ini edits and a Data Files folder spanning three separate MW installs which couldn't be called an "average" install under any conditions.

So... as soon as I get it up and running again (or at least, reinstall) I'll be sure to test out this theory. Then again, if I do the latter, it'd probably be vanilla. Because... if I try to hunt down all the mods I like again, I'll never get around to playing, as usual ;_;.

If this works though, it could be a GREAT resource for MW players. So much so that it would warrant looking into the reason quicksaves increase stability and isolating it, if not taking the blunt way around and releasing a mod that manually quicksaves every 15 minutes .

I'm assuming you are using the windows XP?

Good point, SNO! I really thought that quicksaving the game yourself (and not through an automated process) might actually be more desirable, since as I said, you should save *** at least *** every 15 minutes (sometimes you might want to do this in less time, depending on circumstances). One point that I should really drive home with the testers of these results, though, is that they should use only *MANUAL* saves for loading games (that's right: NEVER depend on quicksaves to save your hide!) if they want to truly test whether or not my findings are capable of being reproduced.



That's correct. If anyone using Vista is reading this thread, please let me know how it goes, as I am unable test on that OS.

Interesting... Very, very interesting... I may just have to try this out...

BTW, when you say you played for two weeks... does that mean you played for two weeks, or that you played for the amount of hours equivalent to two weeks over a couple of months, or that you played for a few hours each day for two weeks? Just wondering.

Ack, maybe I should have worded that better... I meant that I tested this playing for about 5 hours per game session over the two weeks (with one game session per day), NOT playing for the whole two weeks worth of hours. I'll correct the wording in my first post above. Apologies for the confusion.

-E. Faust: Avatar of Metal

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I thought if it was two whole weeks worth of playing - then that's some experimentation!

My guess is that this would only be possible if we had a look into the Morrowind source code (which may or may not happen).

It works for me.

In all seriousness, I've played today, for almost 2 hours, and amazingly, not one crash. I get at least 4 in one hour, on a normal play.

Also, after that initial test, I did it using sleep-saving, and it seemed to have the same results. Is sleep saving a type of quicksave?


I thank you for your hard work, Eisen, you have saved me lots of frustration and haircuts where I pull out chunks of hair! xD

:edit: Fixed a spelling mistake.

I never used quicksaves... It actually never really occurred to ma that they existed for quite a while, well it did, it just never suited my interest- never mind, I'll have to try this, if I can keep my attention span intact for more that 30 minutes

Actually, JW, that falls under "autosaves" (along with waiting). It's actually not just quicksaves, but saving in general that keeps the game's stability up. I was just suggesting to use quicksave for this procedure so that all you have to do to keep up the game stability is just a simple keypress every 10-15 minutes (the key you use would, of course, depend on your personal setup ).

EDIT: By the way, what OS are you using (just for the record)?

I don't know what you mean by CTDs, but I'm sure this is true. I normally go around quicksaving about every five minutes, not really running into any problems, but when I go through a large area without saving whatsoever, eventually I run into an error of some sort. I try running through that thing again by relaunching Morrowind, with quicksaves every here-and-there, but failed to find it again.

CTD is a common acronym for "Crash to Desktop". Unlike a fatal error, the CTD has the characteristic of not carrying an error message, since very often the cause of the CTD is not something that the MW engine knows, based on its internal logic, how to identify.

Does that help?

I loaded a quicksave once, just once, but it had been overwritten a million times. I just kept playing because it didn't seem to slow down.
Bethesda needs to update this! It should first delete quicksave and then write it again!
Edit: Since the saves are so big, i think it would be better to first save a copy, then delete the original quicksave, then rename the copy.
Do you know of a good save-cleaning software?

I tend to agree. I never use quick saves but I am extremely OCD with saving so I save every 20 minutes or so any way (I always make new saves as oppose to saving on top of old ones) and I have gone several hours straight without crashing.

See, I never understood all the CTD problems people have had. This may explain it. I've always played by saving every 15-20 minutes. Its a habit going back to my Diablo days. I got tired of walking into a room and getting my @$$ handed to me. So, if this works, good find.

How does one go about making MGE quicksave every so often?

Wrye Mash. Make sure that you follow the installation instructions exactly or it won't work properly.



Same here. Then again, I tend to run with a lot of mods, so I save just in case I have a CTD...

Hmm, funny. I've actually always had somewhat this suspiscion myself. Albeit I never use quicksaves (just never found the reason to), I've noticed that it seems more manual saves means less crashing for me. Perhaps this is predominately hype, but although I don't get many crashes period, if I save a regular amount, it seems to gaurantee this.

I remember there's been a few times I think that I saved like a maniac and got a crash or two...not sure though. So it might be worth looking into too many saves having the adverse affect, as I could see this happening as well.

Man, Morrowind's engine is funny....

I just recently found out what a CTD is and began wondering why so many people have so many of 'em and I rarely do. It's because my chars are lazy as hell, they sleep more than anything else. I should probably see about making a Sandman companion for them.

This is a rather strange discovery, I will have to try it out myself
Great observation Eisenfaust86!

I'm running XP Pro, and I'm not sure of my system specs. I don't really feel the need to memorize it, and if I did, it would be for bragging rights (or shameful truths, XD).

XP pro does seem to handle taxing loads, because (this is a guess, peoples!) it was made for business use. Which, in some odd way, uses a lot of resources.

I'll give it a run throughout the week, though I am running MW under WinXP compatibility mode.

I'll see what I can do to whip up a small thing that does just that this weekend. It will at least help out with testing this theory.

According to TP21, who has extensively studied many of the game processes in his trusty debugger, the quicksave function is identical to the standard save function. The only difference between the two is that quicksaves are not done in MenuMode, and thus seem to cause more script instability. I would conjecture then that doing a standard save every 15 minutes is just as effective as a quicksave, if more time consuming. At least then you'd have viable save files.

first.... I've never had problem with loading from a quicksave...
second.. what has this to do with mods?????? you should put it on another forum...

There really is not alternate forum for this...I think here is fine enough. It might go under tech or general, but who actually reads that stuff anyways?

Mods is where it's at! *does the handy high kick*


And, after extensive testing (most of the night!) I found that ANY form of saving does this. Sleepsaving, quicksaving, and traditional saving work equally well, with all but quicksaving being completely stable. Quicksave, however, is obviously more convenient, and I remember to use it more often than I do the other forms. But, of course, I either sleepsave or realsave before qutting.

That is my findings, and my reccomendations into one nifty paragraph.

I was so sick of the ctd I started resting/waiting a lot...
seemed to have the same effect!

Yes, because everything about MW is based on coincidences. TES3 and 4 are among the most instable, memory leaking games I have played within the last years.

This is something I found on Timeslip's website under his 'obsolete' catagory (if I am wrong for posting this, I'll take it off immediately, but I haven't seen anything stating that he detests uploading his content) saver. This is a little program he created to automatically 'quicksave' via F5 every two minutes. I have not tried it yet. I'm not sure why he calls it obsolete, whether he has just dis-continued working on it due to satisfaction or the opposite.

What is the default button for quicksaving?

I manually save about every 10 minutes. Is the OP actually suggesting quicksaves in preference to manual saves?

Also, how do autosaves (such as 'on rest') factor in?


Because the quicksave feature (including quickload) works just fine for what it was designed to work with, i.e. unmodded Morrowind. It's just when you start throwing mods into the equation that it freaks out.

I suspect it's because mods not only demand more from the system, they're more likely to have sloppy scripts and memory leaks in them. (Hell, I'm sure mine do.) We can't all be Fliggerty, ya know


I think it's probably just due to their size and the scale of their ambition: on a buggy scale of say, one to Vampire TMB, I think Morrowind comes out pretty well. It's like comparing Balmora Expansion to Wizards' Islands. Both great mods, but Wizards' Islands has a gazillion more bugs and errors than Balmora Expansion because it's about a billion times the size.

The final patch for Oblivion fixed whatever memory leak was causing it to crash for me, and I suddenly found exit times were waaaay quicker. I basically expect one crash in every 3-4 hours of play, and I'm quite happy with that. It's only if it crashes much more often that I get twitchy about it.

As long as you do not load them, as far as I understand. The proposition of this thread is: Auto/quick/normal save (don't load) often and CTDs will be a thing of the past.

F5

I don't know, there was that one level in NWN Shadows of Undrentide at the top of a tower that had a horrible memory leak that reduced the game to a gibbering stuttering unplayable mess within 2 minutes.

Yeah, vanilla Morrowind (and even vanilla Oblivion, though to a lesser extent, I think) freaks out and CTDs if you load games while playing.

I just said, they are among the most instable games. But interestingly... they are the only 2 games from that category that I am still playing today.

This is very interesting, and it explains why I don't get crashes that much at all. In fact, even with seven dremora lords and the like spamming fireballs at me doesn't even crash the game, and i have Reflect! I also save every five minutes or so, a normal save, depending on what I'm doing. Blockhead's dungeons are tailor made for coveinent saving right before the next area.

This will be amazing if it's proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Makes me wish some people would petition Bethesda for the source. I mean, if Activison released the source for Call to Power 2, then maybe someday Bethesda will... Or pigs will fly first.

Is there a utility that can quicksave for you automatically every set interval of time? That way we don't need to freak out when we realize the last time we quicksaved was thirteen minutes ago. I don't like having to keep track of things while I'm playing. Making sure my Magicka, stamina, and health don't reach zero is enough for me. I know StreamLine for Oblivion has an automatic quicksave feature, so maybe something is out there for Morrowind...

I have always noticed that the more often I save Morrowind, the less often the game CTDs on me. This is a very informative and helpful topic- definately bookmarking this!

So basically, quicksaving (and not loading the quicksave) every 5 minutes, then manual saving before you quit will solve the CTD problem for sure?

This is great news!

Fliggerty said earlier in the thread that he'll try to make something.

For all of you people thinking you actually load the quicksaves, please refer to my first post. As said there, they are used not for loading, but for another purpose.

Thanks:

-E. Faust: Avatar of Metal

Hmm well just my two cents...I always use quicksaves, never use normal saves, and always load them from the game menu...never have CTDs *shrugs* I guess it's heavily dependent upon system specs.

Oh and another two cents, your pressure cooker analogy isn't quite correct. Quicksaving does NOT release "pressure" from the game. The game still has to keep track of everything that it had to keep track of before you saved, it's not like it only keeps track of changes made to the game states since the last save. Making that kind of relative memory system would be even more error-prone. SO ultimately I can't explain this anomaly you have discovered, but I CAN tell you that quicksaving, in theory, should not have this effect on said pressure cooker.

I'd say it also depends a bit (or a lot perhaps) on the amount of mods you're using and what mods you're using.

Okay, then. Based on your understanding, what would this anomaly with the quicksaves be more like in terms of an analogy?

Interesting but difficult to credit. I suspect that something else is going on.
Why, well I have NEVER quick-saved ever, my game is rock solid. I expect it to run for 8-12 hours without a CTD, day after day, and it does.
My main trick, as has been discussed elsewhere, is to never load a save game except from a clean start.
A pain, yes, but it seems to work.
Another stability enhancer is using a hardware sound card rather than an onboard. (Those AC '97 chips get everywhere and I do think they are very ropey AND suck off processor cycles. I got an extra 5fps in Balmora when I disabled mine).
Note that Cyrano has a reproducible case where loading from other than a clean start results in Journal pollution from the game you've abandoned.

interesting info, i don't get too many crashes nowadays since I've been more selective with the mods I play with. I guess the best suggestion is to save often regardless, and load with a fresh game if you want to continue the continuity.

For some time now I've had a saving method that works incredibly well for me. Every five minutes or so, or when I complete something important, I do a standard save. I always save to a brand new file, and for the sake of simplicity and speed I only number the saves (this is ok for me since I always have a separate installation for each character, nothing gets confused.) I disable autosave which makes sleeping faster, and I never use quicksave. When my character dies, I always exit the game entirely (sometimes even bother to reboot if I feel like it, usually depends on how long it's been since the last boot) before loading. I still certainly have CTDs, but they are quite rare. And I seem to almost never get corrupt saves (being careful with teleporting has a lot to do with that as well, but that's a topic for another thread.)

So it certainly is possible that saving as often as I do helps out with that if Eisenfaust is correct with his theory.

Edit: I've got a theory about this. I don't have anything to back it up yet. I've never been completely sold on the standard ideas about the so-called "72-hour bug/feature." I have made changes and then waited for far more than 72 hours ingame to see if they disappear. Often they have not. My suspicion is that perhaps changes that have been in effect for 72 hours are "marked" somehow to be purged upon saving. If the purpose of eliminating certain changes after 72 hours is to mainly keep save files from bloating, then it certainly makes sense that the actual removing of them only needs to be done right before an actual save.

TP21 has suggested a very simple way to test this: monitor the amount of memory used while playing. If Eisenfaust is correct the used memory will increase while playing, then suddenly decrease after a save. If that happens, that would be fantastic IMO as it would help us better understand how to manage CTDs.

I get CTDs regardless of saving method I use.

Rarely though. So it is bearable.

What kind of changes? The 72h purge only removes corpses and resets something about NPCs, AFAIK. It is not supposed to purge everything.

Sometimes I have used a "cleaner" esp that changes the GMST from 72 to 0 hours to reduce the sizes of my saves...

Interesting topic. I used to quite compulsively quicksave on a machine with terrible specs and almost never got CTDs.

Want to reiterate Princess Stomper's qusetion--is the suggestion that quicksaves are preferable to manual saves for stability purposes? Or is the idea that no one would bother with manual saves every 10-15, and quicksaves are a . . . uh, quick . . . way to achieve the same thing? That is, Eisenfaust, when you tested, what was your "control group"? You said you were comparing "no quicksaves" to quicksaving every 10-15 minutes--but you didn't say (I don't think) with what frequency you were saving your game using manual saves?

To throw another topic in here that perhaps belongs elsewhere, I had the entirely untested and unverified impression that after hard saves, my FPS would drop. Anyone else seen this?

As I said here:





Oh crud, I seemed to have made an oversight on my explanation... I used manual saves after, like every period varying from 30 minutes to 1 hour depending on what my character accomplishes in-game. Thanks for spotting this. I'll correct it in my intro post.

Just for clarification, for those in doubt, quicksave instability won't matter with the method I've discussed in the first post, because you will never actually load from them. I hope this drives my point about the QS's home, if not anything else.



This has a LOT to do with mods and, especially, mod users! Mods tend to impact how the game behaves (depending on how many you have loaded) and, therefore may have a decent chance of actually making my method necessary.

There, does that answer your question?

-E. Faust: Avatar of Metal

this makes very good sense, thank you

i have moved onto Oblivion now, and i usually do get a CTD every hour or so when i don't Quicksave (and in turn rely on Streamsaves) but earlier today i quicksaved a good bit - i now realize, and i played for a good 2-3 hours with no CTD

thanks, this also might be good to post in the Oblivion forums if it has the same effects on that engine

Huh. You know, this may explain why I can count on one hand the number of times I've had Morrowind CTD...though I started playing 5+ years ago. On a system that didn't meet the minimum requirements. (No, I'm not kidding). I'm pretty compulsive about saving and sleeping (with autosave on), but I also tend to avoid script-heavy mods; the laptop I was using just couldn't handle them and I'd have a nice game of Vvardenfell Slideshow. However, I've never once used quicksave, and I always save in the same save slot, but have never had a corrupted file (except when I started messing with mods, and didn't realize that you couldn't change a mod you were already using without causing problems!).

Mor

I am a firm beleiver in this.

I started some testing of my own, as well.

On one setup, Flynn the Breton Ranger with major moddage played for a whole 2 hours, without any form of saving. I crashed shortly after I was teleported to Mournhold...

On my other, Gawen the Wood Elf Thief with SUPER moddage, played for a mondo 6 hours. I quicksaved, everytime I even thought about it. After 6 hours, I just had gotten tired of playing stealy-man and went back to Flynn. Who, when using the quicksave method, didnt crash!


So! I am in full agreement, with the Avatar of Metal. My theory on it, is that after saving, global scripts (and local ones, possibly) will shut down depending on what is going on. For example, if I'm in Mournhold, and leave, chances are that the global is checking for whether or not I'm in Mournhold or not, and to enable or disable levitation. So, after saving, the global reverts to off setting until I go back to Mournhold.

Repetitive saving seems to keep the globals from stepping on each other, especially with those like Morrowind Crafting and NoM on.

Therefore, I did some field testing! And got a nice daedric sheild, as well! Haha!

timeslip's exe optimizer supposedly reduced the number of CTDs by patching the Morrowind executable. You can find it here although I don't believe it's intended for AMD CPUs.

I think there's something to this as well.

When I started playing Morrowind again, I was frustrated by CTDs, especially since I hate having to redo things for my character (less immersive). So I started saving compulsively and often, always in a different slot. And every day or so, I'd move a bunch of old save files into a separate backup folder. (Octavius is up to 250 saved games, and he's only level 20.)

After reading this thread, I did turn autosave when rest back on, but I may turn it off again, since my obsessive manual saving seems to do the trick to prevent CTDs.

A lot of changes to NPCs are supposedly removed. Some flags such as whether or not you've talked to them, combat state, often even scripted stat changes are removed. That's why if you made everyone in the mage's guild attack you, you can leave for three days and come back and they won't be fighting you anymore.


I don't think there would be any difference. According to TP21 any save method uses the exact same function.

CTDs still happen for me anyway. It might reduce them, but it also focuses on performance for Intel CPUs. Good tool though, a must for peeps.

Haha closest thing I can think of is the quantum mechanics rendition of the double-slit experiment. But that's not a very Morrowind-friendly topic.

I wasn't trying to senselessly tear down your analogy, I was just stating that, in theory, there's no reason why a quicksave should "release" any of the pressure. Everything's still in memory. So maybe a pressure cooker is indeed the correct analogy, but the particular pressure cooker has no release valve without turning it off.

But I can't explain the anomaly better than anyone else here.

Right. But it's worth explaining that because this stuff enters "community knowledge" and it's possible that some newb who was GOING to hard save every 10 minutes might think, "whoa, I need to be quicksaving". I think you, Telesphoros, and Princess are right . . . it's better if possible to take the extra few seconds to hard save. Then you CAN load from that save. So to be compusively clear

1. First best option to prevent CTDs and corrupted saves: creating a hard save every 10-15 mins
2. Second best option, chiefly to prevent CTDs: quicksaving and autosaving often (avoid loading quicksaves)
3. Least best option: playing until you crash, die, or do something you you didn't mean to and have to reload from 5 days ago in Seyda Neen.

Why do either (A.) or (B.) exclusively when you can do a little of both (manual saves for loading from and quicksaves for keeping game stability up, as stated in post #1)?

I conceivably have a mechanism that might explain while this helps some but not others.
'Tis well known that Windows can't handle it's swap file to save it's life. Some of us establish a fixed manual swap file of suitable size, say 2 to 3 time main memory, and make sure it's one contiguous block.

Of course, allowing windows to manage the swap results in fragmented or inadequate swap space, which is often as bad a no swap at all.

I recently (due to fitting a RAID array) discovered that Morrowind really dislikes running with no swap space.
It could be that a save to disk results in Morrowind flushing much of it's swapped memory, thus reducing the probability of a swap related crash.

Those of us with good swap space, weather due to manual assignment or not, see no such improvement.

Only mechanism that makes any sense to me.

I tend to save fairly often..so don't really get a lot of CTD's...there are other ways to get it to crash though. For me doing too many things too quickly can do it..especially when the last action is to equip a high ploy item before the previous action is completed. That often results in a freeze..followed by an agonizingly long ctd. It likely has more to do with my system specs and heavily loaded install than with how the game works though. Anyhow..an interesting discussion..hopefully it can help some people to enjoy the game a bit more

I'm not entirely sure that monitoring memory used would fully tell the tale though. Perhaps it would if there was definetely a big drop, but simply judging from framerates, it doesn't seem that saving has actually decreased memory usage. It could even something as intricate as the menu mode (or the save itself) allowing the game to recompile its memory albeit still having just as much going on. Admittedly, I don't know the much of the fine inter-workings of computer processing, but I could easily see something as simple (and yet detailed) as this taking place.

Nonetheless, seeing that the majority does agree that this is atleast worth a test (having had the same experiences), I definetely think you're right that we need to give this a few credible tests somehow or another. Until then we'll just be wandering around guessing and hoping.

Maybe a steam-engine would be a better analogy, since *that* has a method of releasing pressure...

I don't either, but I do seem to recall that when I pressed control+shift+esc to see how programs were responding, and I saw CPU and physical memory getting eaten up, those levels would go back to normal/ish after a hard save. I was running MW on a very low end comp.

I could be making all this up based on power-of-suggestion, or it could be true and have nothing to do with anything.


Agreed. Not in a position to test now but if I ever get into it again, I'd be happy to report in.

Now if only some tool was invented for the quicksave method for Morrowind that was synonymous to this...

Incremental Saver

Then that would be something...



If you read further down on the page, he says that:

1.) This function can easily be made via MGE's macro editor.
2.) It causes problems with OS's other than XP (at least he says some in the set it's included in does that, but I ain't sure if this is one of them...).

EDIT: I just installed MGE (latest version and all required items) today. With the cutom macro for quicksaving I'm using (does this every 120 realtime seconds), the stability is about on par with the out-of-the-box version of Morrowind (running 100+ mods as said in the intro post). Even though MGE could be scary to quite a few folks out there, I'd recommend getting it for the ability to set up a "quicksave" macro if nothing else (doesn't have the problems that the "Saver" device on Timeslip's site is known to have with Vista users, especially!)

After reinstalling Morrowind and addding a few mods, I've noticed quicksaves crash every time I load them now, or at least crash within a few minutes. I was skeptical at first but I think you're right. What's odd though: before I reinstalled Morrowind I was using all of the same mods. Now here's the interesting thing: when I disable Morrowind Enhanced the game loads fine even with quicksaves.

Now you mention MGE can make a macro for quicksaves; but I wonder if a mod could make incremental hard saves that are automatically named. This would solve the problem for me. Or at least the ability to make a hard save by key stroke.

Here's my mod list. And a quick question: shouldn't my Morrowind.ini reflect my load order? Because the order in my ini is not the same as I see it in Wrye Mash.

[codebox]
GameFile0=Better Heads Bloodmoon addon.esm
GameFile1=Better Heads Tribunal addon.esm
GameFile2=Better Heads.esm
GameFile3=Bloodmoon.esm
GameFile4=H.E.L.L.U.V.A._Merchant_Containers.esm
GameFile5=MCA.esm
GameFile6=Morrowind Advanced.esm
GameFile7=Morrowind Patch v1.6.3.esm
GameFile8=Morrowind.esm
GameFile9=Tribunal.esm
GameFile10=AtmosphericSoundEffects-3.0-Tribunal.esp
GameFile11=Balance - Character (Birthsign & Skill Edit).esp
GameFile12=Balance - Magic Effects.esp
GameFile13=Balance - NPC Spellcasting.esp
GameFile14=Balance - items.esp
GameFile15=Balance - spells.esp
GameFile16=Better Bodies.esp
GameFile17=Better Clothes_v1.1.esp
GameFile18=CalSurGuardMod.esp
GameFile19=Cali_ RiverHouse.esp
GameFile20=Corean_Hair_in_Morrowind.esp
GameFile21=DB_Attack_Mod3.esp
GameFile22=DOV_Armor Hunters.esp
GameFile23=Dark Brotherhood Assassins Fix.esp
GameFile24=Distant Land Fix for MGE.esp
GameFile25=DwemerBioMonitor_v1-2.esp
GameFile26=EcoAdj Ingredients (No Pearl Edit).esp
GameFile27=EcoAdjCrime.esp
GameFile28=Enhanced_Stealth.esp
GameFile29=Fair Magicka Regen (WGI Edit).esp
GameFile30=Fliggerty's Armor Project 2.esp
GameFile31=Gameplay - Dialogue.esp
GameFile32=GoodAdamentium.esp
GameFile33=H.E.L.L.U.V.A. Complete Weapons.esp
GameFile34=Healers.esp
GameFile35=Herbalism Redux 1.12a.esp
GameFile36=LCV Schedule Markers.esp
GameFile37=LGNPC_AldVelothi_v1_20.esp
GameFile38=LGNPC_Aldruhn_v1_13.esp
GameFile39=LGNPC_GnaarMok_v1_10.esp
GameFile40=LGNPC_HlaOad_v1_32.esp
GameFile41=LGNPC_Indarys_Manor_v1_45.esp
GameFile42=LGNPC_Khuul_v2_01.esp
GameFile43=LGNPC_MaarGan_v1_10.esp
GameFile44=LGNPC_NoLore_v0_83.esp
GameFile45=LGNPC_PaxRedoran_v1_10.esp
GameFile46=LGNPC_Pelagiad_v1_13.esp
GameFile47=LGNPC_SM_MCA5.esp
GameFile48=LGNPC_Secret_Masters_v1_21.esp
GameFile49=LGNPC_TelMora_v1_11.esp
GameFile50=LGNPC_TelUvirith_UI_v1_10.esp
GameFile51=LGNPC_TelUvirith_v1_10.esp
GameFile52=LGNPC_VivecFQ_v2_02.esp
GameFile53=LGNPC_Vivec_Redoran_v1_3.esp
GameFile54=Level-Up Birthsign Remover (WGI Edit).esp
GameFile55=Lgnpc_SN.esp
GameFile56=MWE_Base.esp
GameFile57=MWE_Blocking.esp
GameFile58=MWE_Combat.esp
GameFile59=MWE_MagickaSpells.esp
GameFile60=MW_Adv_Required.esp
GameFile61=Madd Leveler - Base.esp
GameFile62=Madd Leveler - Cap Remover.esp
GameFile63=Madd Leveler - Quest Cap Remover.esp
GameFile64=Madd Leveler - Vampire Cap Remover.esp
GameFile65=Madd Leveler - Werewolf Cap Remover.esp
GameFile66=Mashed Lists.esp
GameFile67=NPC LCV Schedules 03.esp
GameFile68=OBs MWE_Magicka patch.esp
GameFile69=Oblivion-Style Spellcasting.esp
GameFile70=RKCriminals TR&BM.esp
GameFile71=Service_Requirements+WGI.esp
GameFile72=Sn_FastTravelbySea v1.0.esp
GameFile73=StateBasedHitPointsv1.1.esp
GameFile74=Syc_AtHomeAlchemy.esp
GameFile75=The regulars - Sitting NPC's v2.02.esp
GameFile76=farrp_WeaponCompilationMod_V2.esp
GameFile77=k_weather.esp
[/codebox]

Load order is determined by the modified date of the plugin. The list of gamefiles in the .ini is not ordered by date, so they will have a different order.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm starting to wonder though, given that Eisenfaust was using Morrowind Enhanced for his testing, and that disabling it fixed my CTD issues, if it might be the culprit. Someone mentioned a few pages ago that it might be the excessive amounts of scripts running at the time of a quicksave that is corrupting the save state.

There's a few posts on the MWE forums about this, could only remember this one though:
http://aerelorn.1.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=203

You know, Kova, you might actually be on to something epic here... I guess this should be all the more incentive to move all the MWE mods over to MWSE (If any of you MWSE people are viewing this post, this would be a task that everybody would appreciate when it's done).

EDIT: OMFG, I disabled MWE and my quicksaves don't get corrupted anymore, just as you said!



No item like that exists for MW, but it has already been done for OB (don't know how hard it would be to get something like that working for MW, though...)

Interesting.. is it a conflict between MWE and MWSE, or MWE and some other mods? Or maybe just MWE in general?


I tried several different macro programs, to try and record the mouse and keystrokes for performing a hard save, but I guess it doesn't work since input commands in Morrowind are done through DirectInput. Now MGE seems to remedy this with a modified DirectInput DLL (I assume) but we would need a similar function for mouse strokes as well, and I don't have the technical know-how to go there .

well... it is possible that there are special 'save' function in the Scripting class (in morrowind itself)
and since both MWE and MWSE 'hack' the Scripting class. it is, in theory, possible that we missed that function. and thus doesn't save MWE or MWSE functions.
altough i have to say it seems very unlikely to me.
i don't think it's a conflict between MWSE and MWE, i think we solved all of those.

Then its probably gotta be MWE itself that's doing it! It really wouldn't surprise me, since MWE has had some other issues with companions (magicka being reduced to 0 upon re-loading of a savegame, for example) and has been known to have other stability issues.

This is beginning to confirm the suspicion I had about MWE long ago.

My few pennies:

I ran some tests with MWE and a program needing that a few months ago, and my impression was that MWE lost control or perhaps even contact, any time there was an auxiliary window open in-game, such as for enchanting or recharging enchants, or alchemy potion-making; might apply to armorer-repairs as well, but my mage didn't test long enough to try that as well.

Just another bit of info, that may help with the jig-saw.

Cheers,
J.M.

Yikes: even more warrant for MWE stuff to start a new life in MWSE!

I've never used MWE, but I have used MWSE, Wabbajack! Er, sorry, I got possessed...

But, like I posted eariler in this thread, I'm glad someone found out how quicksaves effect you, and with this new added information, maybe we can cure corrupted save games permanatly! Yes, I can't spell.

One of the functions of Wrye Mash in the Savegame Editor can print the list of loaded mods as per load order standards.

Ain't a good CTD reducing tool would be to keep your mods in good condition, load order, cleaned, and have as little as possible conflicts?
And also clean your save from time to time via Wrye.

Yes, that's also a factor. Please note that at the first post, I explicitly stated that all items were installed correctly and were in good health in my setup. The savegame mechanism also plays a part here, given that all plugins and tools are in correct installment and load order.

Note to MWE users: See the comment I've made at the first post on MWE and its potential effect on savegames and stability. Depending on the findings of others on the issue of MWE, we just MIGHT have solved one of the variables that causes SG corruption and widespread CTDs!

Once more, I think you should be a bit more careful about your findings, though I understand your enthusiasm about them.

At best, as you say, you might have found the source of ONE cause of corrupted quicksaves and of CTDs. Quicksaves can become corrupt without MWE; I have had several quicksaves become massively weird on me, most notably deleting half of the interior of Illunibi. I think it's worth keeping cautions in the first post about corrupt quicksaves; it's important that mod users know that quicksaves are not infallible and that they carry a non-trivial risk of corruption even in a modestly modded game.

I agree. While it seems like it's very plausible that MWE is causing problems, we shouldn't be ruining its reputation over a hunch. I've simply gotten into the habit of not loading from quicksaves so I don't see it as a huge problem anyways. I think your original post had the right idea in encouraging people to simply not load from quicksaves.

On the other hand, since there are so few MWE mods, I would love to see them ported over to MWSE as well. That might clear up a lot of unnecessary complications.

Maybe I was a little quick to make that edit in the original post. I'll just restore the item about loading quicksaves to its original message, so that nobody is mislead about how to carry out the procedure. Now that I think about it, I can recall quicksaves gettiing corrupted on my side, EVEN before I used MWE (which was a long time ago), although I have noticed that they are much rarer without it (don't know if this is true for the rest for you, though, so only time will tell). So, as usual, don't make a habit from loading quicksaves, regardless of your setup.

Apologies for any confusion:

-E. Faust: Avatar of Metal



If someone were to do a counterpart to Combat Enhanced for MWSE, perhaps it should be done in a different manner than its MWE counterpart (eg: have the techniques rely on other factors besides combos with weapon strikes, addition of critical hits, more lethal shots with marksman weapons at higher levels, possibly D&D style "quicken spell feat" for casters, attacks for "over 100 skill" characters, NPCs being able to use these tricks against you, etc). An example of how some of this stuff would come together can be found in this item through the link:

Adul's Advanced Combat

Some results on my testing here, from former, serious CTD-addiction:

Applying the quicksave, about every 3 to 5 minutes, I have now been able to play intensely for 2 consecutive days -say, about 12 to 15 h - without any crash.

Routinely, I used to do full saves, about every 10 to 20 minutes and was still having the odd 1,2or3 crashes per hour.

While not absolute proof (I remember one other period, playing for a few days without crashing, on Timisoara Experience, quite unusual) , I would say this is still quite ++pos. evidence for me.

Cheers,
J.M.

So did you crash after that 12 to 15 hours or did you just get tired?

EDIT: Maybe that figure of one quicksave per 10-15 minutes was a little off. My indications are that it should probably be closer to once every five minutes. MGE''s macro editor can easily set up a trigger for the F5 key (or whatever you have quicksave mapped to) so that the game simulates a press of F5 every period of time based on the number of seconds in the "trigger delay" box. Truth be told, that is the only function that REALLY needed a trigger on my config, anyway. Please remember, though, that you need to map a key to start the "F5 key periodic trigger".

EDIT: Whether or not my theory holds true is dependent on whether a "mega-majority" of the cases out of literally millions produces the effect I've created via the saves (most patterns only emerge after at least hundreds of thousands of trials, after all... )



...until we CONFIRM that it has FUBAR code!!!!

I wish it was possible to port it all over to MWSE. It's not though...MWE has functions not available anywhere else. I am sure that the next version of MWSE will have some of those functions, but not all. And I highly doubt that we will never be able to replicate Combat Enhanced.

But .... any further light/thoughts on the MWE controls or failures?

Although, this seems to drift off-topic .... in that case, ignore!, and just PM me

Cheers,
J.M.

POST DELETED (drifting off topic: Let's please get back to the focus, here!)

Had to make sure I caught myself before this went any further.

-E. Faust: Avatar of Metal