This is a project to fix bugs in Morrowind that just aren't possible to do with scripting alone. It comes in the form of a patch to the Morrowind program.

The primary fix included is a large change to the savegame code to reduce corruption, missing objects and CTDs. It also makes the game properly respond to changes in your load list, making inserting and removing mods from your save a lot safer.

Version 1.2 is out now.
Files: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19510

Version 1.2 is a minor update to addresses issues with the restore attributes fix.

Here is a summary of the current features:

- Month fix (missing Morning Star)
- Enchanted item display bug
- Mercantile bug
- Transparent clothes in the inventory
- Unarmored bug
- Spellmaking limits
- Enchanted item value increase
- Merchant equipping
- Restore attributes issue
- Stealing from knocked out NPCs
- Reflect fix
- NPC health bar change
- StreamMusic fix
- Calm spells fix
- Vampire stats fix
- ESP load order fix
- Damage fatigue change
- Map expansion
- Local ref bugfix

See the description on tesnexus for more details.

See the previous threads to see how this came about:
Repairing those Cogs #4
Repairing those Cogs #3
Repairing those Cogs #2
Repairing those Cogs #1

Note, if this crashes your Morrowind, please fill in this crash report and PM it to me:

Patch version (check the readme):
Detail what happens just before it crashes:
Detail any Morrowind error messages:

And most important, in the Windows crash dialog ("blabla has encountered an error and has stopped working"), click the more details link ("to see what data this error report contains", different wording for different Windows versions), then click "to view technical information", and copy and paste the first 20 lines.

In case you didn't see my last post in the previous thread, just to restate: I'm here if you need some quick tests to be run.

What is the proper behaviour for targetted scripts whose target has been deleted? I'm not sure if it's possible just to deactivate the script from within the function. There is the code path for 'local count differs from saved count' (variable mismatch), but I can't see a pull-here-to-eject-now variable.

Please check what happens when you set a targetted script's RNAM to 0xffffffff. Does it error out or does it target the player?

Not sure - AFAIK there is no official documentation on targeted global scripts at all, everything we know about them has been researched through observation and trial & error.

Two quotes from MWSFD9 which might be related:






Will check.

I took a save that loaded without errors (no load order change), and changed three targeted Bloodmoon scripts inside to RNAM 0xffffffff.

The savegame still loaded without errors. I then saved it again and analyzed the new save. The RNAM of the scripts remained at 0xffffffff.

Is 0xffffffff the internal representation of "no target" or of "target == player"?

I suspect that the RNAMs need to be rematched to the correct modindex, while retaining their objectindex, for the scripts to keep functioning correctly. Setting the target to "no target" will probably cause the script to CTD when certain functions are called which require a target to be present. Setting the target to "player" wil lcause problems if the script was meant to operate on something else.

It's a bit cumbersome to run tests in this installation since every save takes so long to load, I guess I'll make a testbed with a targeted save and very little else. This should make testing easier, and give me more control over which specific functions are tested.

Ah, never mind. Found the delete flag.

Expect a release later tonight. Got to find where the save point is to implement KRR on this too.

Okay. I'll see whether I can finish a proper testbed by then, won't hurt to have one, I guess.

Btw, my tests indicate that Mash isn't 100% perfect when matching RNAMs - it fails on one single script among the 200 in my savegame; this script's RNAM modindex remains unchanged. So far I fail to see what's special about that script. I'm beginning to suspect that Mash has difficulties processing the *previous* script (which only has a SCHD and a SLCS subrecord, this may be less than Mash expects) and then just jumps over the following script as "non-standard data" until it finds the next header. But it's all rather murky at that point. Currently I don't think this problem is relevant for the code patch, but I'll keep an eye on it.

Is this worth delaying a DL for?

Could be.

Then again I downloaded every revision and put them all in a paq8o8 (though I'm probably missing some LocalRefBetas that Psyringe got) as my shrine to Hrnchamd. >>

Only if you plan to change your load order before the next version arrives.

The problem we found only occurs when mods that are using targeted global scripts are affected by load order changes. As long as you don't change your load order (or only change it for mods that don't have targeted global scripts stored in the savegame), the previous and the next version of the patch should behave identically.

Hi, everyone, it's that annoying David again, , I found a weird issue with your code patch.

Random spells can bypass my reflect (which is at 100%) This is noticable with BigMod's added ghosts, A banshee has a combantion absorb magicka and sound affect, on touch, I think, this bypasses my reflection 100% I think that's caused by Hrachand's code patch fixes. I don't know why it would, but it only happened after I patched the exe...help...

also, pretty much every single on touch attack by BigMod's added ghosts do damage, add there affect, etc, bypassing my 100% reflect. Somehow I think this is because of your absorb health fix. I don't know why, it just seems like the only reason. Unless it's mostly a display issue. I just don't want to run into Greater bonewalkers and come away with 0 strength despite having Reflect 100%

Ah, yes, Dreugh do this as well. The first paragraph is from my new topic from 1:20 PM, I hope it's okay to copy/paste small amounts...

Can you re-run the patch program, disable the reflection patch, and try again? You can enable and disable individual patches, the patch always takes the Morrowind.Original.exe it stored and applies the patches to that.

If what you're seeing is caused by the reflect patch, then disabling that patch should make the problem go away.

Any reports on that issue are very welcome since (as far as I've seen) the reflect patch hasn't had many volunteers to test it thoroughly yet. I *did* tests with an Absorb Health spell cast at an NPC with 100% reflection, and it always was reflected.

I guess I can go do that. If that works, well, then, I'll just smack you with a halibut!

edit: Yeah! That was the problem. Hmm, apparently your fix doesn't fix anything. No, all joking aside, apparently on touch spells seem to bypass any reflect.

I don't get it, I mean, a fix for Absorb health shouldn't cause on touch spells to break through 100% reflect.

Edit: Edited for the fact I'm an idiot.

*cough* Quite some attitude ... but I'll focus on the issue itself instead of concentrating on the way you're presenting it. I'll check whether I can replicate your findings.

Sorry! I thought I was making a joke, I didn't mean to annoy you. You have to believe me here. I didn't know. I kinda thought you could tell by the smiley face that I was joking. I'm sorry, are we cool?

You're a great man, and I definitively don't want to annoy you.

I really didn't mean to anger you, honest, tell me what part made you mad, and I'll apologize.

I know we are far beyond the feature request stage at this point and I also know this is not really a bug. But I have to say it anyhow. This is, I guess a bit MGE related as well but hear me out.
With IVD the sky plane feels very small, far and wide so to speak. I guess this might be really hard to trace so I'm fine if there is nothing that can be done about it. Just throwing the idea out there among the people that know so much more about this then I think I will ever fathom.

Thank you once more for making the game into how it was meant to be played.

I was curious since I am one of those who always adds in stuff (usually a new clothes type mod) to existing games, will that kind of thing mess up this patch?

I am doing a new install for our regular game so will add this in but was wondering if we will need to restart each time a new clothes one is released or if adding it to the end of the load order is enough?

Maria

ps) also forgot to add in a big thank you for doing this!

It's a general change to reflection. It just swaps caster and target if the reflect roll wins, instead of setting target = caster. Any weird stuff happening after is due to spells not using the caster and target slots in the same way.


MGE is able to intercept the sky drawing calls already. Maybe I can work on MGE with Timeslip.


You should probably wait for a release tomorrow, inserting and removing mods almost works, except for scripts.

Just laughing out loud...David you are quite a personage.

Oh yeah. Though if you read David's sig, he doesn't claim to not be crazy. To avoid getting hit with a halibut, I've checked out the reflect stuff. Can't reproduce it at all yet with unmodded Morrowind. Touch spells from bonewalkers are getting reflected properly. Added some absorb spells to ghosts, they all get reflected. David, what spells/spell effects exactly aren't getting reflected? It's all about the details.

Read more, Hrn! >> Your Mortality is showing!

David, I've spent the past hour trying to replicate your findings and I don't see what you're seeing. For me, the Reflect fix works.

- I've made an amulet with 100% reflection, put it on, and made a creature with Fire Bite attack me. Reflect worked 100%.

- I then tried to give the creature's spell several effects, since you mentioned a combined attack in your post. Still, reflect worked 100%.

- I then gave the creature's spell a "sound" magic effect since you mentioned that too. Again, reflect worked 100%.

- I then tried to look at BigMod, since you mentioned BigMod could have done something to Banshees. However, the BigMod.esp does not even have Banshees.

In short, in all my tests Reflect worked as desired. If it doesn't for you, then there must be a difference between out setups. Try the patch on a modless installation and see whether you still get the effects you describe. If you don't, then one of your mods is interfering. In that case, you could help by finding out which mod causes the effect you're seeing, which can be done by adding mods successively until the effect appears.


No, but it hardly matters. Focus on helping the project instead of personal matters, please.

I'm beginning to think it's major user error. I'll go reinstall that patch and try running around again so I can find the monsters that bypass it. The banshee is a leveled ancestral ghost. It does the aforementioned breaking. I'll go run through some large groups and see if I can figure it out.

I'm sorry, it's just the way I am. I don't like making people angry at me. I'll drop it now.

Hra, yes, I'll go test more on BigMod and others. I don't understand how anything that mod, or anything else added could break spell reflection. I'll be back later

Edit: Damn, I added the patch and then fought a Dwarven Shadow, a semi weak Dwarven specter. It attacked me with a spell that blinded me. With Reflect 100%. Without the Reflect patch, nothing affects me, but with it, it does. I don't get it? How can BigMod's added monsters and their spells, break this patch? It doesn't make any sense. I can go look up all the ids if you want me to, so you can test it against the monsters.

Here's the Dwemer/Dwarven ghost I.D. dwar_ghost_dan_wraith. The spell has the id dan_DwarvenWraithSpell2 and they're all on target. THat's odd. THe banshee is id ances_dan_banshee. It's spells are dan_BansheeSpell2 and dan_BansheeSpell1.

THose attacks are also on target. So I don't know why they bypass my reflect. THe only thing I can think of is becasue they're set as always succedes.. But I think most monsters are.

Do you have any other mods active?

Which specific version of BigMod are you using? Can you provide the link from where you downloaded it so that I can be sure that I'm checking the same version that you are playing?

It's probably the patch, but we do need to know how to break it before we can fix it. Thanks for looking up the details. I think the game might be reflecting the spell twice in certain conditions.

Oh, yeah, the other mods, Duh, I am dumb! The link is from his webpage, which I got through the major mage's mods list on Tesa something or other's webpage.

Edit: Also, sorry for any major annoyance I caused here. My American English skills fail me at times...
The other mods are as follows.

GameFile0=Morrowind.esm
GameFile1=Tribunal.esm
GameFile2=Bloodmoon.esm
GameFile3=H.E.L.L.U.V.A._Merchant_Containers.esm <----don't think it's this one
GameFile4=Puzzle Canal.esp
GameFile5=pcc_smeradon_17.esp
GameFile6=Qwert's House of Madness (2).esp <---Possible
GameFile7=Altor Island.esp
GameFile8=pcc_smeradon_patch_04.esp
GameFile9=pcc_extended_smeradon_21.esp
GameFile10=Heart of the Inferno1.1.esp <---another one of Xerese's mods
GameFile11=Battlescene.esp
GameFile12=BigMod2 v2.0 RELEASE.esp
GameFile13=H.E.L.L.U.V.A. Complete Weapons.esp
GameFile14=Aquarius_Dungeon_MC7.esp <----I fixed the major GMSts in this mod before I played it, but I guess it's still possible. It had over 300 somehow...
GameFile15=dabtester.esp <----I think this didn't do it. All it contains are my few spells and an item that help me test mods, including the nice reflect spell. 100% for 100,000 seconds.

Okay, first of all, you're not using BigMod, you're using BigMod *2*. That explains why you kept mentioning monsters that I couldn't find in BigMod.

I'll check BigMod 2 now.

Did I mention I'm an idiot at times? Also, the little annoying scamp called "an imp" can break through with it's minor fire attack. I'll continue to test for more monster issues, along with user error.

Edit: Just fought some lesser centurion spheres and a greater one, got attacked by a spell that did weakness to magicka and shock damage, and it apparently also reflected it back on the centurion sphere. I got a message that said. "Target resists magick" So, apparently it does reflect back, and at the same time hits me with it.<scratches head>

Also, despite being a Nord with a bout 60% shock resistance, the damage from the spell was maybe 3 or 5 points. Despite the message being displayed as "0 pts, 3 pts, 51 pts" under the shock damage catagory. Maybe there's an issue with spells have more than 2 effects? Or something like that...

I've used or tested all of those mods but BigMod 2, Aquarius, Battlescene, Altor Island and your personal mod. I can say with certainty that those are the only ones that could cause it.

Removed all but Bigmod and it did the same. Going to try something else now as the game locked up and froze a minute after I got hit by Centurion Sphere, which also recieved some damage.

Edit: I hope we can all work this out.

I'm noticing that BigMod2 has the "Always succeeds" flag set in nearly all spells used by its monsters. I'll try whether I can reproduce a failing reflection when attacked with a spell that "always succeeds".

Always succeeds will always ignore reflect, resist, etc. That's how it's always been, to my understanding.

Update: Nope.

For me, BigMod2 monsters behave exactly as they should. I created an imp next to me, he attacked me, and I only took damage from his melee attacks. His fire magic was reflected 100%, he took damage from it, and eventually the reflections killed him.

Questions:

- Did you perhaps mistake the graphics for real damage? I *do* see the graphics on my character that I would see if the fire attack went through, and a magic icon for the fire damage is displayed. However, hovering over this icon with the mouse shows that I'm only receiving 0 pts of damage for 0 seconds.

- If that's *not* the reason for the problem, then the next question is: What version of Morrowind (language) are you using?

Seems I'm mistaken. I guess i've been setting my weather mod's spells up with Always Succeeds for nothing. >>

Well, the version of Morrowind that I'm using is standard American version (I think English)

The spell effects do hit me though, so that's whats weird. I noticed the damage icon showing up, but considering my health was 1286/1250 before being hit by random spells, and went down to 1257/1250, I kinda think it's something weird that I get affected at the same time it reflects. I mean, I don't understand why the icon flashes up anyway? It shouldn't flash up at all unless you are affected by the spell. Vanilla Morrowind does that, so why does the patch change it to show the attack? Try summoning a dwarven reveant/wtich/ghost thing, and see if you actually get blinded by it's attack?

Okay, I can replicate it now.

Current working hypothesis: When I give an enemy a spell with multiple magic damage effects, and I have 100% reflection myself, then only the last effect of each casting of the spell will get reflected.

That would explain why David is seeing damage affecting him as well as the creature. Most of BigMod2's creatures have spells with several damage effects.

When I give the first effect 1 point damage over time, the second effect 2 pts, and the third effect 3 pts, then I get an icon that tells me I'm receiving "1pts 2pts 0pts" damage. When I reverse the numbers, I get "3pts 2pts 0pts" damage.

"Always succeeds" has no effect on the results.

I'd imagine this would also be noticeable fighting Vivec, as well. Wrath of Vivec having 4 different effects and all.

It's really good to know I'm not a complete idiot, and it's not all user-error. Or is that a Bad thing?

I'll continue to test things on my own later tonight, I've got a few things to do besides play Morrowind for awhile.

Update: Hmmmm ... when I use a spell with 4 effects, then the first and last ones get reflected, and the 2nd and 3rd ones hit me. I'll run some further tests on this.


Nobody said you were. Thanks for helping us finding the cause of this behavior of the patch.

Update: I'm still unable to determine the system bahind the spell reflections. I'm making spells now with 1 through 8 effects, and give each effect a damage of a different power of 2. That should allow me to determine exactly which attacks go through. I might fall asleep before I'm finished though.

Edit: Made some tests now with casting multiple-effect spells at an NPC with 100% reflection (a bit easier to control the process when the player does the casting). In this setup, only the first spell effect was ever reflected back to me. If the NPC had been hit by all remaining effects, then he should have lost 254 health points. However, he lost between 247 and 249 points (results varied). There might be a rounding error in effect too.

Edit: with regular Morrowind, the NPC takes no damage at all, so all damage seems to be reflected. The player was losing between 247 and 258 points of health - again hinting at rounding errors.

I'm still having dificulties to determine which attacks exactly get reflected and which don't, mostly because both methods of mesurement I applied so far proved to be flawed. At first I looked at the readings from the "magic effects" icons in the main HUD, but these don't seem to distinguish correctly between reflected and non-reflected damage. Then I tried a binary sequence of effect strengths (as described above) to find out which ones go through, but the actual damage calculation of the game appears to be much too inaccurate for that, I alwys got rounding errors. I then scaled all damage effects by a factor of 100, hoping to reduce the possible overlap of actual effects and calculation inaccuracies, but the inaccuracies did scale too. This is not limited to reflecting btw - when I cast a spell that damages my own health by 12,800 points, there are vast inaccuracies - I've seen the actual dmage differ by more than 500 points from the value specified in the spell. I don't know where these inaccuracies come from, even single precision floats should be accurate in this range of numbers. I'm currently thinking about other measuring methods - I could make each single effect of my multi-effect spell damage a different stat, that should bypass the trouble with the inaccurate calculations.

On the bright side, I've now got a basic testbed for script RNAMs, which tests for global scripts, targeted global scripts on the player, targeted global scripts on an NPC added by a mod, and targeted global scripts on an NPC added by Morrowind.esm. I'll add a targeted global script on a reference that gets deleted in the next step. This should allow me to run quick tests on a new version of the patch.

Side note: When I start a global script from within a local script of an NPC, and don't specify a target, then the RNAM of that script still shows the indices of that NPC. Apparently any global script started from an active reference will carry that reference in its RNAM (just checked, MWSFD confirms that).

Side note 2: Confirmed that scripts that lose their targeting (due to a change in load order) get their RNAM reset to 0xffffffff. This seems to be the engine's representation of "no target". The are, however, also scripts with a RNAM of 0. For example, global scripts targeted on the player get a RNAM of 0. These scripts are unable to access their target after loading a savegame (i.e., a targeted global script on the player, which displays a messagebox with the player's health every 10 seconds, will display a health of 0 after loading a savegame), but it will not throw an error during loading.

Edit: Got a PC emergency call from a former employer, will be off for about 2 hours.

I may be wrong but... I think that in Morrowind Willpower affects your resistance to magic. Perhaps that may explain the inaccuracies and why it scales together with the potence of your spell.

interesting findings

Yeah, different effects.
fire damage
frost damage
shock damage
poison damage
damage health
damage fatigue
damage magica
drain health

Good idea, and definitely worth checking ... but doesn't seem to explain my readings. I just checked - I put the damage spell (shock type) on a scroll and read the scroll with a character that had her willpower and intelligence set to 0. I'm still getting these inaccuracies, and they don't even stay the same after reloading / retrying. They look like random fluctuations - so either there's a variable factor yet unaccounted for (like the resistance you mentioned), or the engine simply messes up its calculations.

Or, more probably, both.

Having several elemental damage effects would make it difficult to assess which effect actually went through, since I can't tell it by looking at the magic effect icons, and since all elemental damage effects affect health. So, if my health goes down, I couldn't tell which spell effect exactly is causing the reduction, since the in-game effect sizes might differ from those I specified for the spell.

What I did now is making a spell with 8 different "damage attribute 5 pts" effects, one for each attribute. This way, when an attribute shows up red after I cast the spell, I know that this spell effect was reflected. And since I ordered the attributes according to their sequence in the character screen, it is now very easy to see which effects go through.

The result is a bit boring though. It seems that for a spell with 8 effects, only the first effect gets reflected, and all others don't (with the code patch on; regular Morrowind reflects all effects). It's perfectly possible that all observations that led to different hypotheses were based on flawed measuring instruments and that it's really as simple as it looks now. I'll check that.

Don't worry too much about the randomness of the spell effects. You may notice that even a 1 sec spell spreads its damage out over several frames, the attribute bars move smoothly. It's cumulative error, because of frame jitter, timer accuracy and reduced-accuracy fp divisions it's not going to be that great. 10% error is really high still, but it's a systemic thing.

Spell reflection is actually rolled on for each spell effect separately, and the target is therefore set separately, but changing the caster goes for the whole spell. There is a flag for each separate spell effect to indicate if it was reflected or not. I guess I'll write the absorb target into the data structure and use that when applying the absorb part of the spell.

Edit: Which really makes me wonder what crazy things happen when multiple targets reflect the same AoE spell.

Hello Hrnchamd. I'm user from Russian forum, and in the name of all Russian TES comunity, i please you to make patch for Russian .exe
Cose, when i load it - error:

Gr-sz =).
-B.D-

The readme says that he's is working on non-english version (cant wait)

*YaHHO*

I don't know if this was a result of my adding mods to an old save, but I kept getting CTDs when I updated. Starting over seems to have fixed that, though. Anyways, good work, Hrnchamd, thanks again for doing this.

The save corruption fix currently has a problem with scripts when the load order gets changed. Targeted global scripts do not get matched correctly, and will lose their target as a result.

For the time being, please do not change load order while the save corruption fix is active. You can still change your load order in Wrye Mash, by checking/unchecking mods, then selecting your save, and syncing it to your load order. This will prevent the problem mentioned above. It will not work on KRR'ed saves though.

I'm having a tiny bit of an issue that I have never seen before. When trying to edit the rain mesh ( making some new rain ). I discovered that the engine does not support things like bump or reflection, it says: "precipitation graphics may only consist of a single object"

Is it possible to trace why the engine is not treating the rain - mesh as any other mesh? different loader? or does it apply some animation through the engine since it kind of falls from the sky? I'm mostly curious if it's an easy fix or if it's just out of any reach. Maybe it's more of an MGE thing, I don't think so tho as I'd like to believe this has to do with the code.

The error string begins at: 386600 and ends at 386630

if that makes any sense.

So was this release, released?

Thanks, Psyringe, but I should have been more specific: I upgrade a particular mod a few times before I installed the patch, but with the restart, eveything seems to be working well. Then again, I left one of the mods out and revert to a different version of another, so that may have had something to do with it. Everything seems to be working properly so far, so I'm happy.

Sorry, you'll hear from me when it's released. Had lots of stuff to do today.

If I can help with anything, just name it.

Hey Psyringe, there's a far more reliable method of determining which effects are reflected onto you. Why not just make a simple script that with display a message when you are hit with a specific effect using GetEffect? I could whip up a simple script (or far better, a slightly more complex MWSE script that would output the results to the log file) if you would like.

I may have missed something along here somewhere. What is the occasional reference to KRR?

It's the new Keep Replaced Refs feature. The Readme explains it better than I could:

I am not sure if this is the right place to put it, but i still get a strange illumination effect with some items:
http://img512.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m...eenshot1ik0.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m...eenshot2pz1.jpg

Also, with this new fix, am i right in saying I don't need to clean the saved game with wyre mash periodically as i used to?

Is this a new effect after applying the patch? If so, does it go away when removing individual patch components?


Short answer: Yes.

Detailed answer: I'm still collecting data on this - I've logged in 30+ hours of playing during the last few days, in an installation with 300+ mods which used to spawn a lot of local ref conflicts (which required me to clean the save with Mash quite often). From time to time I make a copy of my save and run it through Mash's "Repair All" function. So far the only mismatched references that Mash found are very rare cases of refs that are actually correctly matched, but Mash doesn't see the match due to the way it processes the plugin files, and hence reports a bad ref although the ref is actually okay. With regular Morrowind, I would've accumulated two or three dozens of bad refs by now, but with the patched exe, all refs are okay (as long as I don't change my load order). So it seems that cleaning the savegame to mend the effects of the local ref bug is not necessary any more. I'll continue to monitor this though.

Note that there are other situations in which cleaning your save with Mash is still a very good idea - however, the necessity of frequent cleaning to prevent the save from becoming too bugged appears to be gone.

Version 1.1 is released. I've changed the installer a bit, so you have to download the whole thing again. There's a smaller download available if you have Python and wxWidgets already.

v1.1 makes the loader handle scripts properly, and fixes the issues we had with reflect absorb fix. I recommend everyone upgrade to this version.


It looks like it's only set up to copy one object x times to make all the rain. Can't tell much from the code so far.


Does the patch cause the illumination effect? Does turning off 'transparent clothes in inventory' fix it? You're not giving me much to go on.

There's not been any long term tests of this patch, you should still clean your games, but expect a lot less bad ref errors.

Great. Just run it through the tests I had set up for the script RNAM rematching. Results:

- Scripts now get their RNAMs rematched correctly when one plugin is removed (haven't tested removal of several plugins yet but it should work the same)

- KRR'ed saves seem okay (RNAMs get rematched correctly, haven't run extensive tests on special stuff yet, like merging back of scripts - i.e., make an NPC in p1.esm, give him a script in p2.esp, make this script enter the savegame, then remove p2.esp. Will check tomorrow whether the script gets correctly merged back under this condition)

- The patched exe now even manages to correctly match the one script that Mash oddly ignored.

- In my "humongous installation" condition, I was (for the first time ever, all previous attempts undertaken about a year ago had failed) able to remove Giants-dragons.esm, which occupied the spot between Tribunal and Bloodmoon in my load order. Scripts appear to have been rematched correctly (no errors thrown; also did a cursory check on the savegame with EE). Side note: I got two errors while loading the savegame after I removed the esm: One "reference load abnormally terminated", and (immediately afterwards) one "cell may be corrupt". These errors were related to a cell where one of the dragons from the now removed esm had spawned. I revisited the cell in-game and with EE, and it seems to have loaded okay - apart from the reference to the now removed dragons, which got correctly discarded, all other references were transferred correctly.

- Oddity: After removing the esm, loading a save, and then resaving, the new save had only about 170 scripts, as opposed to 240 scripts before. This might be just the engine cleaning up, but I want to be certain that the engine isn't "losing" scripts it shouldn't, so I'll investigate.

Regarding the reflection bug:

- Did some cursory tests (very tired right now, was just about to sleep when the new version rolled in ). Attacks from BigMod2 creatures are now okay, all effects get reflected when I have 100% reflection on me.

- Haven't tested spells with mixed damage/absorb effects yet.

- Side note 1: Damage that I reflect to the enemy is now not displayed in the "magic efects" line of icons any more, which is probably correct since these icons display the effects that affect *me*. Have to check this for absorb effects though, ideally these should be displayed since theyhave a healing effect on me.

- Side note 2: If my reflection of an enemy's spell damages the enemy, the yellow health bar does not occur. this is consistent with regular Morrowind's behavior though.

Cool. I'll test the new version out, then.

Hey, I'll go check out the new version in a little bit, but I found an interesting bug. Due to the fact that restore attributes now work with fortified attributes, I think it explains why all of a sudden after resting for three hours under the effect of my custom restore stats spell that I have 273 speed and 6083 luck.

No that's not a typo. I hope this is my fault. My testing spell adds the restore attribute effects for around 1600 seconds. Also, I have noticed the restore effect claiming it's restoring 33 luck, or 23 speed, and the max setting I have is at 11, and that's for luck. All others are around 3 to 9 points regeneration.

What do you think is the problem? I mean, one moment, I"m walking somewhat fast, 135, and the next I'm moving at twice that.

I didn't have this effect before... Also, my luck has risen sharply, from drinking only five of my custom fortify luck potions to 1500, but after resting several 3 hour blocks, it has risen all the way to 6083. I think if I continue at this rate, I'll hit 30,000 before the luck potions wear off after 100,000 seconds.

Don't you like me finding these weird bugs? Also, I set my speed back to 125, while wearing an item with speed boost of 15 points, and when I looked back at the menu, the speed was rising. To 135. In white. Does Set stats not work now in combonation with the fixes?

If you need pictures of the stats, and other info, let me know, and tell me a good place to put it up.

Update:

Just checked: This appears to be a usual cleanup procedure of the engine. Regular Morrowind does exactly the same thing; just checked. So we aren't "losing" scripts.


I confirm that. When a fortify and a restore effect on the same attribute are in effect while the player is resting, then the stat will rise (I think I've seen it rising in multiples of the fortify effect per hours rested, but haven't really checked that). I can also confirm that this doesn't happen in regular Morrowind.

Good catch! That's something I'd never had found because I never used "restore attribute" as constant effect (or for extended lengths of time).

I didn't check whether there's an interaction with other mods involved (this installation uses GCD, for example), or whether the bug goes away when disabling the "restore attribute fix" patch component. David, can you try removing all mods, and checking whether the bug occurs with the restore attribute fix switched on or switched off? That would be great, because I'm not really awake any more ...

Heh, I understand that, It's 1:54 AM here now. I'll get to testing it later, but at the same time, I'm glad I'm finding these bugs. I'll be as famous as you and Hrachand someday. (I guess if I find a big enough bug, I could be immortalized in the credits list.) Just being silly there...
I did beta test Skeleton Island and Split Infinity (The uber weapon mod from way back when, Jaga Tailsin, anyone?)

The patch doesn't reset the fortify state during resting which leads to this issue. Annoying thing is when I tried it before nothing happened, sometimes the game decides not to process spells at all even if you sleep for 7 hours, so I just went meh and moved on to the next thing. Just fixed it by duplicating the reset code a few times.


The restore spell can only see fortify spells cast before it, the CE restore item should be the last thing you equip. Re-equip it and it should restore the full 15 points. Not sure what I can do about that.

Just wanted to stop in and say thanks! For all the hard work you've all put into this. It's amazing! This thread should be flowing over with praises

It's especially helpful to me because the night before the release I encountered a local ref bug that I couldn't seem to get around with wrye mash renumber refs. The patch fixed this and I've had zero issues so far. Well, except that I get the 'Windows Error Report' crash when I click 'exit', after I'm done playing. I think that's MGE though, not this patch.

I'll report any weirdness if I encounter any.

I'll test is more in a few hours, Hranchand, but my restoration was from a spell not a CE item. The fortification was though. The only real way to wait out a spell with 1200+ duration (made in the construction set) is to rest. I'm just glad the boots of blinding speed weren't equipped. Why, with that, my speed would be 650 or something due do the bug.

You're smiling a lot, haha. Maybe the restore spell only restored 10 points? I think I've fixed the resting thing already, but I've found another bug with racial/birthsign foritfy attributes. The game makes those boost the base stat as well so the fortify patch should ignore them, but it doesn't yet.

I'll start promoting this around a bit once the bugs are ironed out. Your name will probably be in the credits somewhere.

Eh, stranger things have happened. I noticed something else, possibly related to other fixes, not sure which one. But I can talk to bandits now, and that's weird. My personality is 50, and my speechcraft is 76. If I remeber correctly, maybe the knock down and loot fix? All I know is it's just about impossible for me to click on a bandit without getting a conversation window pop up, which is weird, considering they're bandits. I say hi, and leave, and a second later they're trying to rip off my face.

Don't know why, I just seemed to enjoy knowing someone's supposed to die when I get the character is in combat message. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong, or what. Any idea?

Also, slept to wear out the restore spell and netted an unbelievable 10067 luck combined with 657 speed. I mean, at that speed, I might initiate nuclear fusion when I hit something...

I should be called the obscure bug finder.

Also, for reference, in order to talk to vampires without them attacking, you need like 160 personality or something, and let's not talk about Diyath Fyr

Sorry, i thought maybe the maybe this issue might be related to the glowing enchanted clothes bug in vanilla thats all, i guess its a different problem altogether in vanilla, i had had this problem before the patch.

Thanks very much for the new version

Did some more testing on the reflection fix: I tested 8-effect spells with various combinations of "damage attribute" and "absorb attribute" effects. I wanted to try this because it's more difficult for the engine than the spell effect tests I made so far. With "damage" and "absorb" effects in the same spell, the engine has to correctly determine when to switch targets and when to turn the former target into a fake caster so that it can benefit from reflected absorb spells.

The new release passed all these tests. All effects, no matter whether they were "damage" or "absorb" effects got reflected correctly.

The magic icons now only show damage reflected to me from my own spells.

I noticed that when I cast a "heal companion" spell on an NPC with 100% reflection, I will get the message "you failed casting the spell", but I do see the graphics of a reflected restoration spell surrounding me. Will investigate.

Update:

Scratch that - I mistook the "begin casting" graphics for the "casting successful" graphics. The spell is working as intended.

Hmm, for some reason I can't use this latest patch. It isn't compatible it seems.

Compatible with what?

Check your install directory. There should be a file called Morrowind.Original.exe. This is a backup of your original exe that the patch program copied over last time you installed the patch. If you havenÄt changed this file in the meantime, then the new version of the patch should work.

If it doesn't, then delete your Morrowind.exe *and* your Morrowind.Original.exe (or move them out of the folder), copy an unchanged version of the original Morrowind 1.6.1820 exe into the folder, make sure it's called "Morrowind.exe", and run the patch again. If it *still* doesn't work, please tell us the version and language of your Morrowind.exe.

Good news to hear, Psy! I'll go grab this new release. ( I guess it's a release canadite (sp?)

Is there any interest in cataloging more bugfix candidates for some possible future release? I've thought of a couple more beyond the ones I mentioned in the last thread.

My biggest wish would be to somehow attack Morrowind's remaining instabilities due to buffer overflows and such, but I don't know of good test cases to produce reliable results. I did try running Morrowind under valgrind on Linux, which was kind of interesting, but unfortunately it of course runs more than a magnitude slower under the valgrind emulation and is pretty impossible to do tests (it took about 20 minutes to start up and load a savegame). Maybe if there were some native windows memory debuggers that could do something similar? But perhaps these ideas are too far out. I just mention them in case there is some possible interest.

In any case, thanks in advance.

Morrowind uses STL for arrays and string building, most crashes aren't buffer overflows in the game code... well except the script system, but that is poorly designed. The major CTD remaining for me is the menu corruption error. On-load and cell change crashes seem to have gone away with the local ref fix. Someone's going to have to troll all the threads for unfixed bugs, but that can wait for a few months.

may you upload it to other site ? such as pes, or http://www.elricm.com ?

That actually raises my opinion of the program a little bit

Well, I'll keep an eye out for the next call for bugfix candidates. Thanks.

It may just be me, but when I applied the latest patch, my saves would cause an instant CTD. Restarting seems to fix that problem. Is there a way I can avoid this in the future? LIke say turning on KRR? Thanks.

It shouldn't happen in the first place. From the way the patch is designed, it should be able to load every save that regular Morrowind can load too. If it isn't, then there might be a problem to fix, however we'd need more information for that. Answers to any of the following questions would be helpful:

- Does the crash happen while saving or while loading a save?
- Assuming the latter, does it happen with saves that have been written with regular Morowind?
- Does it happen with save that never had their load order altered?
- Does it happen when loading from the main menu as well as when loading from in-game?
- In which phase of the loading proces does it crash? ("Loading save game" or "Initializing")
- Which mods are active?
- Do you mean "restarting the program" fixed the problem, or "restarting with a new character"?

If you have a save that does crash on load, you *can* find out the exact record that causes the crash (which could be helpful), but it's a lot of work, basically you'd do a binary algorithm on records: Delete half of them with EE, see whether the problem persists, work on the half that still has the problem, delete half of the records there, etc. It took me five hours on a 25 MB save, but it should be much faster on smaller saves.

I'm pretty sure it's the script system doing that, pre-patch savegame script references will inevitably be pointing at random objects if you've ever inserted or deleted a mod. Try using ToggleScripts in the console before loading, then again after it's loaded. If it crashes when you turn scripting on, you know the problem.

Instant CTD while loading a save from the launcher.

It happened with a patched Morrowind using the previous version of the patch - the first one with the GUI. I had no problems with Beta 5.

Yep.

Load menu.

I think it's loading saved game. It never got far in loading before I was starting at my destktop again and Dr. Watson tried to do its thing.

A couple of these were added to a new saved game.
[codebox]Masters for SeydaNee0000.ess:
001 Morrowind.esm
002 Tribunal.esm
003 Bloodmoon.esm
004 Imp Guard anticlone.esm
005 Assassins Armory.esm
006 Book Rotate.esm
007 SG-MW-ecology-BM.esm
008 Morrowind Patch v1.6.3.esm
009 Morrowind Patch v1.6.3a.esm
010 MW_Children_1_0.esm
011 Texture Fix - Bloodmoon 1.1.esm
012 Texture Fix 1.8.esm
013 LadyD_Reduced_Commentary.esp
014 WeatheredSigns.esp
015 Lgnpc_SN.esp (Version 0.31)
016 Carry your Bedroll.esp
017 AreaEffectArrows.esp
018 bcsounds.esp
019 master_index.esp
020 Siege at Firemoth.esp
021 LGNPC_NoLore_v0_83.esp (Version 0.83)
022 FreeMoreSlaves.esp
023 DodgeTribunal-v21.esp
024 CastReduce-v30.esp
025 Better Bodies.esp
026 Loincloth_top_ pkg2.esp
027 farrp_Quivers-FletchingKit_V2-5.esp
028 VA_OrdReplace_openhelm1.0.esp
029 Silt_Striders_Are_In_Vvardenfell.esp
030 Herbalism Redux 1.12a.esp
031 Slof's Better Beasts b.esp
032 Blight Bounties.esp
033 Clean BB2_Falconer_Leather.esp
034 Marksman Enhanced v1.2.esp
035 Book Rotate - Tribunal v5.3.esp
036 Book Rotate - Bloodmoon v5.3.esp
037 SG-MW-ecology-BM-plugin.esp
038 ImprovedTeleportation2.0.esp
039 Galsiahs Character Development.esp
040 GCD StartScript for Trib or Bloodmoon.esp
041 GCD better balanced birthsigns.esp
042 GCD Restore Potions Fix.esp
043 Brittlewind fix.esp
044 MW_ch_orc.esp
045 House of Earthly Delights, Harem Style.esp
046 GCD_107x_to_108_patch.esp
047 MW_ch_elves.esp
048 MW_br_im_no_kids.esp
049 IceBradyHurdyRobeReplacerPLUS.esp
050 Better Clothes_v1.0.esp
051 LGNPC_Indarys_Manor.esp (Version 1.45)
052 PhijamaWeaponsCompanions_FreeArrows.esp
053 BB Dark Brotherhood by Westly.esp
054 LGNPC_GnaarMok.esp (Version 1.10)
055 LGNPC_AldVelothi.esp (Version 1.20)
056 LGNPC_MaarGan.esp (Version 1.10)
057 LGNPC_Secret_Masters.esp
058 Balmora Council Club.esp
059 LGNPC_HlaOad.esp (Version 1.32)
060 Gravedigger.esp
061 1gr_packgua_1r.esp
062 Undeads arise from death 1.2 - T - B.esp
063 Akavirian Armor V 1.0.esp
064 LGNPC_Aldruhn.esp (Version 1.13)
065 LGNPC_Pelagiad.esp (Version 1.13)
066 LGNPC_TelMora.esp (Version 1.11)
067 ale_clothing_v0.esp
068 LGNPC_Khuul.esp (Version 2.01)
069 LGNPC_VivecFQ.esp (Version 2.03)
070 LGNPC_TelUvirith.esp (Version 1.10)
071 LGNPC_Vivec _Redoran.esp (Version 1.40)
072 LGNPC_PaxRedoran.esp (Version 1.11)
073 New Corprus Stalker.esp
074 Jac_Passing Time While Reading - BR Patch.esp
075 JAC_Jasmine.esp
076 DAMJasmineOutfit.esp
077 LAL no exe.esp
078 Ronin plugin.esp (personal plugin - only addes faces/hairs and weapons).
079 Clean AragonMonk-v10.esp (added to new saved game)
080 Mashed Lists.esp[/codebox]


Restarting a character. Restarting the program had the same affect.


If it happens again with the next version, I'll try that. Thanks.

Please PM it to me.

I will after the next patch. I started over and wipped out my old games.

I'm really interested in trying out this patch, but I've already run Exe Optimizer on my current Morrowind installation.

Is there any way to work around this?

I believe the thing to do would be apply the Morrowind Code Patch first, then Exe optimizer. Is there some reason you can't do that?

Because I've already run Exe Optimizer. I did it a week or so ago, before I discovered this patch.

Check your Morrowind folder. Exe optimizer should have made a backup of the original Morrowind.exe - I don't recall the exact file name but you'll recognize it when you see it. Delete your Morrowind.exe (or move it away) and rename this backup to "Morrowind.exe". Then see if you can apply the code patch.

If you don't have the backup any more, then you can do the following - this procedure will give you a new, untampered Morrowind.exe without messing up your current install or any registry settings:

- rename your Morrowind folder to Morrowind_Backup (If your Morrowind folder is not called Morrowind, then substitute the folder names in this and all following steps.)

- Install Morrowind again to the folder "Morrowind" (If this is not possible because you've already have a Morrowind entry in your registry, then tell your system to uninstall Morrowind and its patches. Don't worry, they won't actualy be deleted because the system cannot find the files any more.)

- Install Tribunal (might be skippable) and Bloodmoon.

- Apply the official patch to bring your Morrowind.exe to version 1.6.1820

- Make a BACKUP COPY of this file and DO NOT DELETE IT ever.

- Copy this file over to your Morrowind_Backup folder

- Delete the "Morrowind" folder with your new install

- Rename your "Morrowind_Backup" folder back to "Morrowind"

Understood. All I'm saying is that you have to apply MCP first. You haven't said explicitly, but it sounds like you didn't keep a copy of the original Morrowind.exe version 1.6.1820. This is what you need to apply the MCP to.

If you have updated with EXE optimizer and not kept a copy of the original .exe, can you not re-install to get a fresh copy?
If I had to do this, I would rename my morrowind directory, re-install, copy the Morrowind.exe 1.6.1820 to a safe place, and replace the newly installed morrowind directory with my old morrowind directory. Then apply the MCP then EXE optimizer.

Edit: D'oh! Psyringe got there first.

I have two files: Morrowind Launcher.exe and Morrowind.exe.

Is Morrowind Launcher the original, then?

No, it's the launcher.
Morrowind.exe is the game. The patch is applied to the game, not the launcher.

Ah.

You overestimate my sophistication in technical matters. I probably have the back-up -- I just didn't know it.

I found something else entitled "Morrowind.exe.fpu2ssebak". That should be it, yes?

From the readme.chm for exe optimizer:

YES, YES.

RTFM.

Sorry. Jeez. Bite my head off, man.

I wasn't trying to bite your head off. I just tend to post short answers
Sorry it it came off as unfriendly.

No worries, mate.

Thanks, all, for the help. It appears to have worked like a charm.

Going to post an update tomorrow for the restore attributes fix, it gets broke when you restore an attribute that is fortified by a racial/birthsign, as well as resting/being in jail etc. I could use some feedback on the savegame fixes, hopefully it's not causing CTDs for anyone.

The map fix, of course, works perfectly fine with TR Map2.

Is it just me or the Map 1 And Map 2 landmasses don't 'blend'? :s

Not just you. Due to the nature of the seperation of landmasses for the project, over time some exterior modders forget what was on the other side of the border of their claim, and things get a bit out of sync. 'Re-syncing' the landmasses is a big part of what's going on with Map 2 right now. It should look fine by release time.

I'll send you the Dr. Watson report if the update still causes me problems. Thanks.

Yeah, if you fix that bug, I'd be so happy. Now, here's a bug that if you fixed, everyone would be happy. Morrowind's ability to crash if too many spells are swung around in combat. Best way to test this is to have 14 Dremora Lords cast fireballs at you all at once. If your computer doesn't crash doing that, with or without reflection, you have a computer than can run Crysis at 4086x4086.

I don't know what the main cause is, but it's really noticeable with reflection. I wish the engine was more stable than that. Do you know how come Morrowind likes to crash completely randomly on massive spell attacks? I'm about ready to go walk around and get hit by every spell...

It's not your program, I assure, this is a problem that if you solved, everyone would be happy. Except Timeslip, because then he's be out of a job...

Will it be okay for all future releases as well?
I just wonder because Hrnchamd might not be around in all those years when the last map gets released.

I assume you mean "future releases of Tamriel Rebuilt maps".

In that case, the answer is yes. The map dimensions of the complete TR project are already known, and were taken as a basis for the new map scale.

For some reason, the patch doesn't like games that were created without the patch. I keep getting CTDs whenever I load up a save that has had no mods loaded with it, but when I remove the patch, the save loads just fine. Would loading the save with the keep records option active fix that?

[edit]: The issue seems to be with the saved game patch. After I removed that, I was able to load my unmodded save with no problems.

Odd, I cannot reproduce that at all.

I just started a new unmodded game (with regular Morrowind), went through CharGen, and saved immediately after leaving the office. I then reloaded that save with the code-patched exe, and it ran fine.

Can you put the unmodded save that crashes your exe somewhere for download? Analyzing that save might help, or at least I can check whether it crashes for me too.

Edit: To answer your question; I don't think turning on KRR would fix that since KRR has a different purpose. The crash shouldn't occur in the first place, so we need to understand what's causing it.

This save was made before I started applying the patches, Psyringe. But here's a RapidShare link. It requires both expansions to be loaded, but no other mods are required. I have no problems loading saves when I start a new game, it's only when trying to load saves that weren't created with the save game fix installed.

cool, good to know

Yes, I know, that's what I tested in my attempts to reproduce the crash. I have a Morrowind.exe from before applying the code patch, and a Morrowind.exe from afterwards, and switch between these. That's the same as creating a save, then installing the patch, and then loading the savegame, just a bit quicker.



Thanks, got it. Hmmm. I can load this save with my code-patched exe without problems.

If it always crashes for you, and never for me, then we must either be doing something different, or have a different environment. Which version of Morrowind are you using (I have the US version)?

Here's what I'm doing, step-by-step so that we can determine whether we do something different:

- I start "Morrowind Launcher.exe"
- I double-click on your savegame, so that it selects just the three official esms, and click on "Ok"
- I exit the Launcher
- I start my "Morrowind.exe"
- I click on "Load"
- I click on your savegame
- I appear in Seyda Neen

If you apply this exact sequence, does it crash for you?

Regarding Mash and mods that move references. This gets confusing, so lets take a simple example... On the western edge of Seyda Neen -2, -9 is a mudcrab. Now suppose...

1) We create a mod "Mud1.esp" that moves that mudcrab slightly, but keeps him in the same cell. When you save that mod, the moved mudcrab will have frmr of 341046,1 (where "1" indicates source mod of Morrowind.esm).)

Now, you move the new mod at the end of your mod list (no need to repair all with bash), run morrowind and then save a new savegame. Check the save game, find the mudcrab, and the mudcrab now has a frmr (in the savegame) of something like 341046,103 (wher 103 is the position of "Mud1.esp"). Now, you would think that the modindex would still be 1 (for Oblivion), but it's not. Once a mod has modified a given reference, the game engine seems to assign ownership of the reference to the last mod to modify it. Sort of.

Mash's "repair all" mimics this behavior. It will preadjust the assigned modindex from 1 to 103 to mimic what the game engine does.

2) Forget the above. Suppose that you have no mod at all. But you load the game, go find that crab and get him to follow you from -2,-9 to -3,-9, then you save and quit. Check the savegame with EE, and you'll find that the record of the crab still exists in the -2,-9 record, but with a MVRF prepended that covers his temporary move to the next cell. So physically, the mudcrab is in -3,-9, but datawise, he's in -2,-9.

2) Now suppose "Mud2.esp", which is the same as Mud1.esp, except that it also moves the mudcrab a few feet to the west, putting it into cell -3,-9. The mod represents this the sameway the savegame does -- data is kept in cell -2,-9, but with a prepended MVRF that indicates the move to the adjoining cell. So, that seems reasonable -- data is always in the same cell.

But when you load Mud2.esp and then save, the engine gets confused. It now seems to think that (in some ways?) that the mudcrab originated in cell -3,-9. E.g.


(Here, I also moved a spawn point from -3,-9 to -2,-9. And here it seems that the usual "mod takes over owership" was not applied for the spawn point.


So... I'm confused. Certainly, it seems like the safest thing to not move references across cell boundaries. But at this point, what's the right thing to do would probably depend on what you guys are doing.

Amazing that the game engine is crazy enough to reassign the modindex.

I thought I'd give it a try too, and it loads for me. I'm running the MCP 1.1, and I tried loading your savegame once in-game with all my mods loaded, and once loading it from the main menu with only the MW+TB+BM original esms selected. Both times no CTD for me.

I've been loading it from the launcher. Do you think loading it directly from the exe file might help?

That would be strange if it made a difference, but it would be easy enough to try, so go for it.

To tell the truth I haven't used the launcher in 2 years, not since I started using Wrye Mash

Try it and tell us whether it works.

You mean you pressed "Play" on the Launcher, instead of exiting it (like I did)? When I do that, then Morrowind.exe doesn't get Mouse focus (it doesn't crash, but I cannot click anything since my mouse is still on the Desktop, which from time to time flickers over Morrowind's main menu).

When I do the same with the regular Morrowind.exe, Morrowind gets mouse focus correctly.

Hmmm. That might be worth investigating.

Update: Hmm, no, it's erratic. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. In any case, I'd try starting Morrowinmd.exe manually and see whether the crash problem persists.

Hmm, I've never had a problem launching Morrowind from a shortcut on the desktop, despite it loading the Launcher first.

I do have a problem though, with this code patch, that is more annoying than anything serious, I can talk to bandits now! Really, that's kinda awkward. I just started a new char, and with 50 speechcraft and 40 personality, I shouldn't be able to talk to bandits at all. Is this a work around for the knock target down with fatigue drain and then loot their body? Becasue if so, you might want to take a look at it again...

I don't know what the root cause is. Maybe the mercentile fix in combination does something weird? Any idea, Hrachand, Psyringe?

Mind you, it's very strange to walk up to a hostile NPC and hit space to get the in combat dialog, and end up talking to them!

Hi Wrye, great to hear from you.

I'd like to run some tests before replying in detail, here are my first thoughts on the matter. One question first: Are you using the regular Morrowind.exe, or an exe with Hrnchamd's code patch applied?


I'll reproduce the situation and have a look at the savegame in EE. (Side note: When I did tests previously, I used creatures around Balmora, because those in Seyda Neen get initialized during CharGen, and I wanted to prevent that for several of my tests. Doesn't seem to be an issue in this case, but I thought I'd mention it.)


I found some differences in the handling of persistent vs non-persistent references, and I think the games treats the mudcrab as persistent, and the spawnpoint as non-persistent. I'm not sure whether this can explain the difference you mention, will investigate.

As before, the best way to find the cause is to remove patch components individually, and see whether the problem still exists. The knockdown patch is a likely culprit since it affects the "character is in combat" message. I'll check that after I ran some tests on the MVRF questions, but this will take a while, so you'll probably be quicker by disabling individual patch components on your own and then simply trying to talk to bandits.

I can confirm DavidB1111's problem with talking to bandits, and for me, it is the KO patch that seems to be the problem.

Yea! I knew it wasn't me, and sorry, Psyringe, I completely forgot I mentioned it! Duh! I fail.
At least Reflect is now working perfectly for me.

No other bugs to report, other than the standard Morrowind crashes if you get attacked by too many spells at once. If Hranchand could fix that, it would be awesome! Not that it is possibly fixable though...

Okay, I took a closer look on my previous testbed where i moved some references across cells. In this testbed, I moved the character "Heddvild" (whom Morrowind.esm places in "Balmora -3,-2", in the middle of the plaza) one cell to th south ("Balmora -3,-3", near the silt strider).

In the plugin, her data is still in -3/-2, but it's preceded by a MVRF which transports her to -3/-3.

Now in-game, I go to the cell in question (and leave it again, although that's probably unnecessary in this case), save, and check the savegame.

In the savegame, Heddvild and her data appear in cell -3/-3.

If I understood you correctly, then your interpretation of this is "The engine gets confused about where Heddvild's data is stored - it was stored in -3/-2 before, and is stored in -3/-3 now." By this logic, Heddvild's data should've appeared in the savegame in -3/-2, with a prepended MVRF that specifies her physical presence in cell -3/-3. Correct?

However, the engine itself processes the save correctly - when it's reloaded, Heddvild gets set to the position I left her when I saved. So, from my (limited) observation, the engine does not seem confused.

Hence, my interpretation (when I ran the tests) was slightly different. I saw MVRF as a command telling the engine (when it's loading the mod) "take the following reference and move it to the cell specified in the immediately following CNDT subrecord". With this interpretation, both the reference data and its physical representation do actually exist *in* cell -3/-3 after the mods have been initialized. Now, when the game is saved, the engine saves the differences between the current game state and the game state just after the initialization of all mods (let's call this "virgin gamestate"). In both these gamestates, Heddvild is in -3/-3, so her data gets stored in this cell, and there is no need for a MVRF since she hasn't changed cells between these two gamestates.

Mash, however, reports her reference as having gone bad, and deletes the reference from the savegame, which resets the reference to its state in the virgin gamestate. The following example demonstrates why this can be problematic:

- When I *kill* Heddvild, save, and reload the game, then she remains dead. The engine has correctly matched the reference in the savegame to its target in the virgin gamestate.

- Now I take this savegame, which apparently works correctly, run Mash's "repair all" on it, and then load it. Now, Heddvild is alive again, because Mash has removed her reference from the savegame.

This leads me to the conclusion that the engine is actually doing something correctly for a change, whereas Mash cleans a reference unnecessarily out of the savegame, because it couldn't find the correct match for it (perhaps because it was looking in the wrong cell).

Am I missing something?

(Btw, if I can do anything to help, just ask. )

Okay, suppose all of the above about moving Heddvilde. Two questions:
1) Suppose that previously, heddvild existed already in savegame, but in cell -3,-2. Since with the move mod installed, the game now expects her in cell -3,-3, does it now decide that there are two heddvilds? One in -3,-3 and ther other in -3,-2?
2) Or suppose that the savegame is correct, but you now uninstall the mod that moved her. Same problem is reverse -- post-init state expects her to be in -3,-2, but there's actually a heddvild in -3,-3. So again, do you get two heddvilds?

EDIT
Here's an interesting bit of info...
Right after I wrote this, I did a little more tinkering and was finally able to get a current save to load after saving it post-patch.
Being mindful that I'm using FPS Optimizer with MGE's internal version of MWSE, I decided to try saving the"patched" save indoors, and also removing the TR map from my patched setup.
Of those two things, one of them solved my issue.
I'm only sorry I wasn't more careful and doing so one-by-one so I knew exactly what did it. So, this is the conclusion to the information below. See? You get to read the ending first so there's no suspense.

PREVIOUS MESSAGE:

LD, I got my saves to open after I removed the clean saved game patch, or whatever it's called. I think it was the first one on the patch list. Try removing all of the patches, then reinstalling them except for that one and see if it helps any.

Hey Jac, did you get to read my edited post? (We probably posted at the same time) I got things working too, but by a very different method.

If you get CTDs please fill in this crash report posted here.


It's as you expect, they both double. The reloader will purge one of the doubles on reloading the save, though. In the cell data structure, there's a list of MVRFed references, which gets saved first. I guess the problem is deeper in the code somewhere, where it compares Heddvild's position against the reference position in the owning mod. Uhhh headache.

Yes. Post-init, the game now has Heddvild in -3/-3. Apparently the engine cannot match the Heddvild in the savegame to the newly added Heddvild in the post-init gamestate.


With regular Morrowind, yes, I get two Heddvilds. The engine now sees one Heddvild in -3/-2, placed by Morrowind.esm, and one Heddvild in -3/-3, placed by the savegame. It is unable to match these two, so I get two Heddvilds.

With the Code Patch, there are two options when removing mods:

The default is a clean removal of mods - all references that were part of the mod get reset to their post-init state. The engine puts Heddvild in -3/-2 during initialization (since the mod that moved her isn't active any more), and when it loads the save, it recognizes the Heddvild stored there as a reference from a mod now removed, and discards her. As a result, there is now only one Heddvild in-3/-2.

The Code Patch offers a second option called KRR (Keep Removed References). With this option on, the engine tries to merge the references of removed mods back to the original references. This is similar to what original Morrowind does when removing mods. So, when I remove the MoveHeddvild.esp, and load a previous savegame that had been saved with KRR on, then I get two Heddvilds. Like original Morrowind, the engine keeps the Heddvild reference from the savegame, but is unable to match her to the Heddvild from Morrowind.esm.

Hmm. I see the problem now.

We've come to see doubling as undesirable. So what would be the "correct" behavior in this case?

Assuming that the behavior of moved references should be consistent with the behavior of unmoved references, the "correct" behavior would (imho) be this:

1. If I add a plugin that moves a reference across cells, and the original reference is already stored in the savegame, then the reference from the plugin should be ignored (savegame data trumps plugin data)

2. If I remove a plugin that moved a reference across cells, and the moved reference is already stored in the savegame, and the savegame is not KRR'ed, then the reference from the savegame should be discarded (clean removal of mods trumps mod data residues in the savegame).

3. If I remove a plugin that moved a reference across cells, and the moved reference is already stored in the savegame, and the savegame is KRR'ed, then the original reference should be ignored (again, savegame data trumps plugin data, and the user has specified that he wants this to happen by turning KRR on).

4. If I have a plugin that moves a reference across cells, and this reference got stored in the savegame, then - when I load the save - this reference should be in the state I left it in.

Currently, the code-patched engine handles (2) and (4) "correctly", but not (1) and (3), these lead to doubling.

"Repair All" with Mash handles (2) correctly, but not (1) - Heddvild still gets doubled, (3) - KRR'ed saves use FRMRs in a way very different from what Mash expects, so KRR'ed saves shouldn't be procesed with Mash, and (4) - the reference from the savegame gets removed although the game would be able to process it correctly.

Previously, I only saw case (4), and thought the best solution would be if Mash didn't remove such references from the savegame. This might still be true, but as Wrye has shown, there's also a problem with cases (1) and (3), which currently neither the engine nor Mash can deal with. I'm not sure how much effort would be needed to fix this though.

Unfortunately the game cleans out every piece of MVRF data after loading the mods.. removing this cleaning op just results in two sets of MVRFs in the save data. I'm not sure exactly how it manages that...

Haha, no wonder Bethesda only ever bothers to fix a few things.

Good work!

Version 1.2 is released, it's just a fix for the current issues with Restore Attributes. It fixes bugs with restoring an attribute that is affected by a racial/birthsign and resting with a restore spell active.

There's a Russian version of v1.2 available too, it's not tested... no idea if it works. It is a upgrade file, extract it to your Morrowind directory. Please test all the fixes.

How much tweaking is going on with this plugin? I really want to grab it but I don't want to have a new version come out as soon as I do.

Hrnchamd and Psyringe are doing a phenomenal job at awesome speed. If (and they show every sign of doing so) they keep it up, don't be surprised if you see a version 1.3 or more soon.

awesome! this and the UUMPP has renewed my passion for morrowind again!

Awesome! A new version! I'll go get it right now! No more 10,000 luck and 678 speed!

Firstly a big thank you Hrnchamd and others for the developing MCP.

Are you able to give an indication of what's left on the 'to do' list? I'd prefer to wait until it's felt you're at or close to a final version before adding it to my setup.


Thanks again.
-KWM

I'm not adding any new features for a few months, what you see in the first post isn't going to change soon. We're still trying to find any CTDs that people are getting when loading savegames. I consider it stable right now, just back up your savegame folder, read the readme, save often.

Hope you fix the bug with talking to bandits! That's a bit strange to put it mildly. Other than that, all the bugs I've seen seem to be fixed. I don't know, I'm certain the buggy bandits is kinda low on the list...

Just turn off the loot NPCs while unconcious feature, chatting with banditos might be in character, who knows someone might make a mod with some entertaining responses.

Hmm... What a pain. How many mods do MVRF's anyway? Maybe it would simpler to just say "Don't do that." (Alternatives are to delete and create new ref and/or to move with a script.)

PS: I've got a pretty limited Wrye time, and I'm doing other Wrye stuff this weekend. I may not be able to contribute much more this weekend.

Edit: I can think of what Mash could do to support mods moving references, and there are ways to do it -- but it would require modifying code that that's already moderately complex. It would be a fair amount of work. (It's not just the Repair function -- I would also have to fix the Update and Sync to Load List functions). The work involved would probably require an amount of time that I may not have available any time soon.

I ran a "Find in Files" search for "MVRF" over the esp and esm files in my biggest installation, which consists of about 300 mods, some of them merged. It found 130 hits in 27 files. The most likely candidates seem to be city expansions and compatibility fixes (which resolve some conflict between two other mods). Obviously, not all of these MVRFs will be problematic - if, for example, they only move some statics around, which never become part of the savegame, they can't cause any of the problems mentioned. Unfortunately I don't see a good way for estimating how many *problematic* MVRFs are in these mods.

If it's any indication: During five days of playing a lot, Mash found only three references that it couldn't match due to MVRFs in the plugins. Two of these were from Balmora Expansion, the other one was a spawnpoint moved by Korobal. I have visited about 50% of the settlements during this time.


Certainly simpler. Also it's "community knowledge" already that references shouldn't be moved across cells, although nobody seemed to be able to say what specifically was the problem. Maybe we just rediscovered it.

Personally, I think the occasional doubling of a reference that has been modded in an inadvisable way, occuring only after adding or removing the mod that moves this reference across borders, is something players can live with. It would be great to have the engine and our tools as perfect as possible, but of course we have to look at what we can accomplish in the time and with the resources we have.

If you can squeeze it into your schedule, it would be great if Mash could be taught to match references from the savegame to moved references in the plugin - my current understanding is that this could be achieved by actually moving the reference data into the cell specified in the CNDT record when Mash reads in the plugins. If (for example) Mash would transfer the Heddvild reference to Balmora -3/-3 when it encounters the MVRF in our example plugin, then it would be able to match the reference from the savegame to it, and as a result, "repairing all" on the save wouldn't reset Heddvild (including revival if I killed her). This problem will occur every time when using "repair all" on a save, and will occur even if people don't change their load order, so if there's an easy method to fix it, it would be great if it could be pursued.

And like I said, if I can do anything to help, just ask.

Hey!

First, just thanks for all the work you guys have done on this. It's really fantastic, and we who are computer illiterate salute you!

There seems to be some confusion at TES about the download. Anyway, I've downloaded the MCP Upgrade 1_2 from the site (MCP_Upgrade_1_2-19510). It seems pretty self-explanatory: I just copied over the "mc patch" folder in my Morrowind file with the new version. However, if I try to download the new 1.2 version, it seems like I get the same file (MCP_Upgrade_1_2-19510).

Just a heads up, in case Hrnchamd posted the wrong file.

Thanks again!

I'm only following this with half a brain, but isn't moving things across cells exactly why companion mods have so many issues with doubled/deleted references? Specifically, the original companion follows the player away from their starting cell, and gets separated from the master file, doubled, then deleted by Mash - and it's the original NPC that gets deleted, not the double, which is a problem, as the player has given them all their stuff, and changed their stats/variables. It's a very common problem, and one that I'd love to be able to fix easily, or innoculate against.

Seems to be working okay now, maybe it was a caching issue.


The MVRF bug we found occurs if a mod moves something to another cell, and the savegame moves it as well. It's unlikely a companion mod does this. As far as I've been working on this patch, doubling is caused by bad rematching when mods are added to the load order, and missing stuff caused by the local ref bug. I've fixed those two cases as much as I can.

Yet again, please report all CTDs using the bug report form in the first post.

Would it be possible for you to make NPCs carry across multiple cells, in such a way a RadiantAI like mod could be created?

Gah, flood control on these forums has been increased to 150 seconds? What a pain having to wait over 2 minutes before I can post again in another topic. 60 seconds was bad enough before.

Anyway, there is an issue with Scripts on Doors. Apparently if you put on on a load door and the cell you go into has something with a CellChanged script, this script doesn't detect the cell being changed, and so doesn't work, effectively breaking the effect a modder/beth has done.

Can anything be done about that? It seems there must be some hidden code on the doors that adjust various variables which then doesn't get run if the door has a script.

There is one companion mod where I have witnessed this 'doubling' behaviour. That is Emma's Constance companion. Constance seems fairly temperamental and susceptible to doubling or generally losing the plot if you do so much as tweak your mod list. In a (fairly) recent game, I picked her up and took her to Vivec, then added a couple of mods below Constance in the load order. When I returned to Gnisis, there was a second Constance waiting around. And yes, running Mash's repair option deleted the Constance that was following me.

Eloise

Okay, trying to clarify a bit ... feel free to slap me if things were clear to everyone already.

First, there's the problem of doubling companions. There are two reasons why this can happen - one of them involves a beginner's mistake on part of the modder (trying to change a reference created by an esp with another esp), which certainly isn't the case with Constance, so I'll concentrate on the other one:

The most likely cause for a doubled Constance is a change in load order. Doubling occurs when the engine loads a savegame and cannot determine which mod a reference (like Constance) belongs to. When Morrowind loads a savegame, it first creates a "virgin" gamestate which contains all of the data from the mods, but none of the data from the savegame. In this virgin gamestate, Constance is at her starting point (wherever the mod that created her put her). This is the "Plugin-Constance".

Afterwards, Morrowind loads the savegame. The savegame contains a newer version of Constance - different position, changed stats, etc. This is "Save-Constance". When everything works okay, then the engine recognizes that Save-Constance is just a newer version Plugin-Constance, so it *removes* Plugin-Constance from the virgin gameworld it just created, and places Save-Constance there instead, with all the data specified in the savegame - otther position, other stats etc.

Doubling occurs when Morrowind fails to recognize that Save-Constance is just a newer version of Plugin-Constance. If the engine fails to make this connection, then the Plugin-Constance will not be removed from the gameworld (since the engine doesn't see a newer version of her). Also, Save-Constance will be placed in the gameworld, but the game will not know anymore from which plugin she originated.

This happens very easily when you make a change to your load order, because Morrowind uses the position of a mod in the load order to identify the stuff from it that went into the savegame. If Plugin-Constance gets created by mod no. 45, then Save-Constance will have some data specifying that she originally was a reference from mod no. 45. If you now remove your mod no. (say) 20, then Plugin-Constance will now be created by mod 44. However, Save-Constance still thinks that she originated from mod 45. Due to this mismatch, the game now fails to see that Save-Constance is just a newer version of Plugin-Constance. The engine now sees them as two different things and therefore places both in the gameworld - so you get doubling.

In such a situation, Wrye Mash will always delete the Constance that is following the player. This happens because the other Constance is correctly matched to her plugin (no. 44 now), while the Constance that is following you isn't (she still thinks that she originated from mod 45, but there is no Constance in mod 45). Mash keeps the correctly matched Constance and deletes the "rogue" one, which happens to always be the one that's already following you.

Fortunately, this problem can be prevented. There are two ways to do this:

(1) You can use Wrye Mash to add or remove mods, and use the "sync to load order" function. This will change the savegame data so that the engine can now reconize Save-Constance as a newer version of Plugin-Constance.

(2) You can use the save corruption fix from the Morrowind Code Patch. Among other things, this makes the engine much smarter in dealing with load order changes. In the example above, the engine will now recognize that the former mod 45 is now mod 44, and when loading the savegame, it will change all references to mod 45 accordingly.

In both cases there will be no doubling of Constcance. The difference is that method (1) has to be redone for every change in load order (but is tried and tested), whereas method (2) is a one-time fix that will solve the problem for all future load order changes (but is new and, while we *did* test it thoroughly, might still have bugs lurking in strange places where nobody looked at yet). Personally I'm using the save corruption fix for a while now and it managed to cope with load order changes that ineitably led to crashes and doubling before.


Second (you remember that I started my post with a "first"? ), there's the problem of moving things around. As far as I know, this is unrelated to the doubling of references, except in one very specifc case, which should be much too rare to be a factor for Constance. If there's evodence for the contrary, I'd be interested in having a look at it, because it may mean that my understanding of MVRF's is insufficient.


So, longs story short: Kateri, shadowborn, the doubling problem you mention should already be fixed by the Morrowind Code Patch (and Mash offers a prevention method too). If people installed the save corruption fix from the code patch, and still get doubled companions after changing load order, then I'd be interested in the data, because as far as my tests indicate, it should work correctly now.

I'm not using the saved game corruption fix (Hrn, I'll try to get you that report later), but haven't had any problems with adding mods to a saved game using a companion, nor updating the companion mod with a different version (same file date, just bigger). I use Wrye Mash's sync to load list, but haven't used the repair all because my saves come up purple. So far, it seems to be working properly.

Thank you Psyringe, an explanation that even I could understand

Thanks so much for the explanation, Psyringe! I was aware of how changing load order could affect object indexes getting misassigned, but you set things out much more clearly than they were in my brain. I can see now exactly why Mash deletes the wrong "clone", and I'm very happy that this problem is hopefully fixed!

Just tried this out and it all seems to be working OK. Haven't really given it a good going over but no obvious errors at the moment. Great work Worked through the ESP by Psyringe and in it he mentions:Whilst not the best example the Masque of Clavicus Vile is in vanilla Morrowind and the weird ear tuft things were subject to the transparency glitch.

Is this only located on TESnexus right now? The file is too big to download without registering.

Thanks! That's what I was looking for. I will add that to the mod when I update it.

Thanks for the explanation of how doubling occurs. However, when I added whatever mod it was that I added, I'm fairly positive that it was placed lower in the load order than Constance (so Constance's mod index shouldn't have changed), and I also used Mash to sync to load order.

I'll probably install the code patch when I get around to playing Morrowind again, and see if I get any Constance problems then.

Moving on, but sticking with the subject of companions, is there any fix for the 'companion vanishes when you go through a transition door while levitating' bug?

Eloise

That site absolutely refuses to work for me. I hope it can but put on an alternate download location.

There is, but it requires changing the companion's scripts and I don't think it can be covered by this patch. Basically, you have to put a wait timer on the companion so they won't go through immediatly after you; instead, they'll wait a few seconds before being teleported to your position.

Re-reading your previous post, I also saw that you had already specified that you added mods only after hers in the load order - I didn't notice that earlier, sorry.

This however means that I don't have a good explanation of what happened in your game - all possibilities that I can see are unlikely:

- The engine could have a doubling bug that is triggered by adding mods even when the companion mod's modindex remained unchanged. Unlikely because there's no other evidence supporting such a mechanism.

- Constance could have been programmed poorly and therefore be especially prone to doubling. Unlikely because her scripts were developed by one of the most skilled companion scripters that Morrowind ever had.

- You could have changed her modindex without intending or realizing it. Unlikely because you say you're certain that this wasn't the case, and as far as I can see in other threads, your observation skills are very accurate, and you don't tend to jump to conclusions.

Hence, I currently don't have a good explanation.

If you still have savegames from before and after adding those mods, feel free to send them to me - analyzing them could help to solve this riddle. But you said that this happened a while ago, so it's probably unlikely that these savegames still exist?



IIRC the topic has been brought up briefly, but it's not included in the current code patch, and the next months are reserved for ironing out upcoming bugs, it's not planned to add new features for a while. Also, since the bug isn't associated with some display, it might be very hard to determine the piece of code that's causing it. On the pther hand, there might be a way to remedy this with a script that constantly prints the status of the companion to the screen ... hmmm. In any case, suggesting this bug if Hrnchamd finds the time to open the patch for new fixes won't hurt.

As long as the bug persists, it is my understanding that setting a companion's acrobatics to 200 should prevent it - which certainly isn't perfect (because it removes acrobatics as a meaningful skill for companions), but at least they don't fall to death anymore. But my knowledge of companion scripting is rather limited, so I might be confusing things.

There's also the "constant effects become negative" for traveling companions.

Right then, I have looked through this thread first, but have not found an answer.

Quite simply, I ran 1.2 on the restored exeopt Morrowind.exe, leaving all the options ticked. It patched without a problem. I then start up MWSE that starts up the launcher and click on Play - and I get a message saying Morrowind.exe doesn't exist and please re-install Morrowind!

What have I done wrong? Installed 1.2 instead of 1.1?

In any event, I can still run the game from Morrowind.exe and MGE starts up with no problem, I just won't be able touse the MW Laucher! But to report, as per normal, outdoor saves crash because I think MGE takes to long to kick in and MW doesn't like it. Indoor saves now work though, because of no 'change over' from foggy non refllective water to clear, distant land, reflective water indoors!:)

This means your mod has got my indoor saves back (they were crashing the game too! But the outdoor ones are still very suspect. Meaning when in the wilderness later in the game, I am going to have grief if outdoor saves don't load! This is why, even though I am only at the start of the game, I am having to decide whether it's worth playing if I cannot rely on outdoor saves!

Well done for this utility though - it's been needed for a long time!

Have you renamed your morrowind directory after installation? I think the launcher looks for Moorowind.exe in the path that is specified in the registry, which is the path that you originally installed Morrowind to. If you change the directory name, then the launcher will not be able to find the exe.


I don't think there's enough evidence to support that conclusion. It may be wiser to check other options instead of tieing oneself down to a gut feeling - the latter is a good way to start a wild goose hunt, but not so good for analyzing and solving problems.

However, if you get frequent outdoor crashes and no indoor crashes, then MGE distant land might actually be involved in it. Check whether you actually have the required vcredist (it has switched two times between VC 2005 and 2008 now) and the August 2008 version of DirectX 9.0c. That's rather a topic for the MGE thread though.

But I'm glad you're seeing an improvement in your game.

I am defintely using the latest Aug 2008 Direct X and the latest VCRE. So that is not it. I, of course did not change the directory as I saw no need to and no directions saying I had to! I cannot run MWSE 0.94 because it cannot inject a dll into Morrowind.exe anymore (or words to that effect. But what this means is that I am now loading the game successfully with no MGE being activated by starting from the cogged Morrowind.exe. This mean I have the foggy non reflective water, and while I have only tried 2 outdoor saves in the short amount of time I have been testing, both of those saves loaded successfully.

By continuing to test, I am sure I will get the game loading with MGE running. It will be interesting to see if those outdoor saves load! It's too late to try tonight. So I will try tomorrow night. I have noticed how the outdoor save loads and 'appears' with NPC's alrady animated, etc. With MGE the best I can manage is about 2 seconds of frozen game then the MGE bits kicking in. I have nevr had a save load crash AFTER MGE has 'appeared' on screen. It has always been during the save load before the game screen appears, or during that frozen two seconds while MGE is doing it's thing


EDIT: I have stayed up late and conducted a test. I am able to laod with MGE active. The two outdoor saves made with no MGE running are still able to be loaded WITH MGE running. However, the two outdoor saves I additionally made WHILE MGE was running would not load. I will test more with and with a cogged MW.exe to see what difference, if any, that makes.

Just to chip in on this. I had to, through my own fault, reinstall Morrowind (& Tribunal & Bloodmoon & Patch). I renamed my "live" Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind directory (with all my mods, MWE, MGE and saves in) to Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.backup and installed away into Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.

What surprised me was what happened when I'd finished patching the EXE and I'd renamed Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind (i.e. the new install) to Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.vanilla and Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.backup to Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind...

When launching Morrowind from the launcher it would start the EXE in Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.vanilla. I noticed this as MGE wasn't working. Basically, the path stored in the Registry was now Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.vanilla even though I'd installed to Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind

Gosh. Quick bit of regedit hackery later and everything's fine. Something to watch out for though and not at all what I expected, Windows is smarter than I thought.

I guess for those not au fait with regedit the best thing would be to (using my terms) copy the contents of Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind.backup into the fresh installation at Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind. Just make sure you don't copy the wrong morrowind.exe!

@ Humorguy: Reckon this belongs in the MGE thread. Have you tried using EXE Optimiser on the executable patched by the Morrowind Code Patch? It didn't do much for my framerate but helped with CTDs. Oh, and I've been messing with Z-Buffers in MGE. I've found D32L to be a touch unstable so I've reverted to D24X8 (as I don't have shadows on at the moment). Something else to consider. But in the MGE thread methinks.

Never mind, I had to use the full version and not the update.

Starting from now, I'll be without internet for about three days. I'll catch up when I'm back.

Dragon 32 as this utility is said to work with MGE, I think it should include looking at possible MGE bugs as well as Morrowind bugs or people are potentially going to blame Cog when they should be blaming MGE. You should have also noticed I was talking about Morrowind crashing and thinking it was MGE. But that talk is still about Morrowind crashing despite Cog saying it should help with corrupted saves. Either here or on the MGE site I have not seen the modders/programmers talking about the saving and loading side of Morrowind. Certainly I expeted MGE programmers to take my point more seriously than they did. When you consider the one thing that would stop you playing MW completely is not trusting saves outdoors. Everything thing else, form CTD's every 10 mins to anything else becomes much more minor, assuming you can load and save ok. It doesn't matter if MW never CTD's if it doesn't load and save reliably, because you know that more and more quests are going to take you to more and more out of the way places, so the longer you play the more you rely on reliable outdoor saves.

Therefore, reliable saves fixing surely is the most important thing on Cog - which it seems to be, and the most important thing for MGE, which it seems tome, it isn't.

I have a few suggestions, can you make the console useable on Vista? (please don't refer me to that thread because it doesn't work for me, I even started my own thread and nothing suggested worked)

And one more, can you make this compatible with mounted disc images, I can't use it with mine.

How is it not usable on Vista? I have Vista and the console works just fine.

I have Vista x64 and console is working.

I post something on hardware and software issues, Starwarguy9875. You may wanna check it.

You really need to be clearer in what the problem is and what you've done to identify it. At the moment I have no real idea what your problem is. Apart from some crashes some of the time.

So, some questions to think about to have a better idea about what is causing your crashing:

• If you use your Patched EXE and rename d3d8.dll to d3d9.OLD (so stopping MGE from working) do you get the same crashes?
• If you use your backed-up Morrowind.exe and a working MGE do you get the same crashes?
• Do you get the same crashes with no mods running with just MGE and just the Patched EXE?
• Do you get the same crashes with no mods running and starting a new game with just MGE and just the Patched EXE?
• Do you get the same crashes with MGE set to Morrowind default?
• Have you tried just applying just some patches from the Morrowind Code Patch and not all?
• Do you practice safe mod-using (i.e. religious use of Wrye Mash and ensuring all your entries in warnings.txt are explainable)?

Have a look at some of Psyringe's old posts when he was testing this application. There's some examples of proper testing.

Oh, and it's only Timeslip who's developing MGE now (and OBMM and a Direct3d thingy for the Dark Engine and...) since Liztail moved on.

edit - This problem has been solved.

I need help changing my load order. I'm trying to move four economy ESP files to the near-end of my load list (they're currently in the middle). I changed their file dates in Wrye Mash so they would load later where I wanted them, but now my save won't load (no error message, just CTD). If I put them back where they were in the load order, the save loads fine. I tried using KRR but the KRR save also crashes when I try to load it with the new load order.

Anyone have any advice?

I also have vista with a working console. What type of keyboard are you using? We're all assuming your using the usual English keyboard.

As for making it work with a mountable image. That wouldn't be possible without using a program that re-packages the image. I don't want to go into this on this forum though, as I'm not sure if its ok to talk about that.

In order to use the installer, Morrowind must be installed on your computer. If you have morrowind installed on your computer, all you need to do is find Morrowind.exe . If you installed Morrowind in a default locations, it should be in C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\

I apologize if you were already aware of any of this already. ^^'

If you're using MGE, setup a keyboard macro to activate the console.

That's what I had to do, for what ever reason ~ would not work on my setup. I'm using XP Media Center Edition w/SP3; MW GOTY edition (english version), but the solution should work just the same on vista.


In Wrye Mash you'll also need to 'sync to load list' - from the Save tab, select the save you're trying to load then right-click on the File bar (bottom right side) and select 'sync to load list'. Your save status should turn purple. If you still have problems loading the save, you might need to run 'repair all' on the save - right-click the save file and select 'repair all'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Getting back to CoM thread...

Happy to report that after patching w/MCP build 123 was able to apply nocd patch and run exe optimizer successfully. I can once again store my precious MW disc in a safe place.

Thank you tetchy, that worked like a charm. :^)

PS: would you mind PM'ing me a link to your no-cd patch? When I started using the Code Patch, I just made an image of my Morrowind disc with Daemon Tools and I've been using that to play, but it would be nice to not even have to use that.

Send me a CTD report, see the first post in this thread for the report form.

Seriously, I can't fix anyone's CTDs unless
- It's reproducible
- You send me the crash info
- You're willing to take the time to test it

Hehe, what an easy fix. And I have been suggesting all kind of things to him in the other thread.

Just recently added:
the UUMPP, patch 1.6.4
The Cogs latest version of some 2 or 3 days back
Morrowind Advanced (but disabled and going back to an earlier save, problems persist)

Just started temple quests, the pilgrimage of 7 graces
1) fields of Kummu, 100 Feather doesn't work
2) Stop the Moon-blessing: levitation just 1 ft above ground, but no 100 speed, no vertical freedom
3) Palace blessing, +10 on Mercantile, NoGo

While other magic, own feather & levitation spells, all enchanted stuff, all continues to work normally.

Very few other mods on this install, and those have been running for weeks or months without hiccups before ...:
BB + Slofs textures
Changing Faces Replacer
Theurgist (mainly affecting Sadrith Mora and some NPC & interior cells, as in Caldera, Suran, Hassour)
Hexenfels (Seyda Neen and an island to the South)
Axel's SexyWalk anim, <snip> .... for leading off-topic

Any ideas?

You should release that as a mod.

I just saw This Thread, then this one right beneath it. I can't help but wonder, is there any chance this patch could fix the issue with distant creatures not being animated?

Ain't that done to increase performance?

Axel's SexyWalk anim, extended by self to [...] Uncle Crassius

I soo need to see this!

why is turn undead not fixable? i like to use it

It's fixed in Quorn's update to the unofficial patch. The script for it's broke, not the code in the executable.

Maybe, but I don't think it matters. All of the changes applied by this utility are optional so if you think this change would bog down your system, then don't use it.

To be honest, inside his room, and I guess with very short AIWander settings, it's mostly the way he hesitates a bit, then starts to make way for a first stride and stops again, but just recognisably different, if you have seen Axel's anime.

To really see the full effect, you have to place him in AIFollow player mode, make him follow you around in the Plaza, and walk backward in 3D view or Vanity mode.
Asking him to take his pants off (Undress for me mod) makes it more fun, just pity, other NPC don't make comments...

Edit: Oops: so sorry, but this goes very off-topic ... no more, please!

I suppose, best ignore this question for now, as regards interference from this Cogs fix.

After running several more tests on completely fresh installs of 3 versions, GotY pure, with UMPatch 1.6.4 and this Cogs only, it seems the chance of getting the journal entry at the shrines is at or near 100%, but the chance of actually receiving the blessing seems no better than about 50/50.
And at 3, palace, sometimes but rarely got a dual blessing,: +10 on Merc. and +10 on Luck.

However, may be still another Cog, for fixing ???


Cheers, for all the good things,
J.M.

Stop the Moon blessing worked like that for me before patching with any version of MCP. Sometimes I would not get the levitation spell, but would always get the text.

Well, it appears that the saved game issue is fixed - I haven't had any crashes on load and updating mods while playing doesn't seem to mess up the saved games if I use Wrye Mash to update. Hopefully it will continue that way. *crosses fingers*

I've had a couple more ideas. When your character is affected by a Spell Absorption affect (such as that provided by The Atronach birthsign), you will usually absorb spell affects from the shrines in the temples in the game - this has always been a minor annoyance of mine since I would like to be able to receive healing from these shrines. Would it be possible to change spell absorption so it won't absorb blessings like these, but only "bad" effects that you actually want absorbed?

Also, I've always wondered if it was intended for a character to be able to wear a two-handed weapon and a shield at the same time, it makes me wonder when I equip a shield and my two-handed weapon is automatically un-equipped... is there any chance that a patch could be made that disallows characters from using shields and two-handed weapons at the same time?

And, as I just recently discovered: the At-BS makes about 1/2 of blessings from the PoSG fail .... started with a full M-bar, so I didn't see that part of the blessings

(Pilgrim of 7G)
J.M.

Damage fatigue now causes npcs to collapse....

It's possible.


You still take 10% of hits to the shield slot whatever armour you equip. Patching this is more of a convenience than a bug, it would be low on the priority list.

I wouldn't do this. I always interpreted this as having the shield slung on your back, or if appropriate, arm. You can't block with it which is the main thing after all.

Can you upload an archive with the savegame before removing mods, and another version of the same savegame after syncing to load order with Mash, to rapidshare or somewhere else where I can download it? From my understanding, a save that works after syncing to load order should also work with a code-patched exe without previous syncing. If it doesn't, then there may be an as of yet undiscovered bug in the MCP, or my understanding of the processes involved may be insufficient. In either case I'd like to find out what's happening specifically.

Also: I'm back from my three-day trip, obviously.

Hey, it's great to see you're back Psyringe!

Unfortunately, I cannot upload that save as it's long over-written. That exact problem really did occur, though: the game wouldn't load my save with the new load order, but synching the load order with Wrye Mash allowed the game to load it perfectly.

What is the countermeasure for reflected absorb health spells? Would Resist Magic help?

Reflected absorb spells always kill my character in less than a second. I am not sure if absorbance wasn't meant to be a kind of counterbalance for reflection. Now it seems that reflection becomes kinda unbalanced.

Reflection of Absorb Spells is too cruel, spells the absolute end for pure mages in Tibunal and BM.
And make Ash-Ghouls and Slaves about 5 times tougher than they were .... pity .... must hate Mages
And even TGM will not protect player there.

I suppose un-selecteing the "reflected spell fix" will be the only Cogs-saver for spellcasters.

It *should* work like reflection of fire / frost / shock spells. I haven't tried it though since I use a different method to prevent sudden reflection deaths. My mage now simply "tests" enemies for reflection with a low-damage spell, and (if they do reflect) uses fortify and heal spells to kill them in melee. I like that a lot since my character is now actually facing challenges again, while he could walk around with area effect absorb health effects before, killing almost everything with zero risk to himself.

Not at all, several other possibilities come to my mind (and there may be more since this is just off the top of my head):

- conjure creatures which can kill the reflecting enemy

- cast high-level fortification spells to enhance your melee skills, then engage the opponent in melee

- have a strong healing enchantment on yourself

- travel with a companion who can help you out against reflecting enemies

- if the opponent doesn't have 100% reflect, then attack him with low-damage spells which won't kill you if they get reflected. Jump / levitate / teleport out of combat as necessary to heal yourself.

- look for a safe position, and pummel the opponent with ranged attacks, heal yourself as necessary.

- Hit and run tactics: Run up to the enemy, attack him with a low-magnitude, long-duration damage spell. If it gets reflected, run away and heal yourself or wait the danage out. Repeat until enough spells got through to kill the opponent.

- cast invisibility or other stealth spells and don't engage enemies with 100% reflect (you don't *have to* mow down everything in your path)

There are probably more tactics that I haven't tested yet. For example, I haven't experimented with resistance to magic yet, as DWS suggested. I think 100% magic resistance will nullify damage done to ou by a reflected absorb health spell, but I haven't tried that yet. I also haven't experimented with dispel effects yet - this might be another way of dealing with reflections, dispelling the effects before they threaten your life. And a third idea that I didn't give much thought yet is to enchant weapons specifically for use against reflecting enemies. I usually enchant my weapons with damage or absorb effects - against reflecting enemies, these are useless or (now also in the case of "absorb health") even dangerous. Not enchanting weapons removes the danger, but is a waste of enchantability. It might be worthwhile to enchant a weapon with effects that specifically buff or heal yourself instead of trying to damage the enemy, this should help to fight reflecting enemies.

In any way, there are *many* ways how a spellcaster can deal with reflecting enemies. It's just that many people probably aren't used to think about them since exploiting the reflection bug was such an easy way to deal with them before.

Of course, deactivating the reflection fix is always an option for people who don't like it, and that's part of the beauty of the Morrowind Code Patch - you can choose what you like and don't have to put up with changes you don't like. But I really encourage people to try out a fix even if it *seems* to make one's playstyle not viable anymore. Chances are that this assessment isn't actually true and that there are ways to overcome the additional challaenge. Personally, I like it a lot that my mage can now face opponents that are actuall dangerous for him. This hasn't happened for a while without the code patch, because "absorb health" was so incredibly powerful and had no risks.

An interesting find: if you update any of your mods, they must be spelled exactly the same as they were before - this includes any spaces, capitalization, e 1bf8 tc. I updated my companion mod like I normally do (use Wrye Mash to change its date), yet one of my saves wouldn't load because I didn't use the same capitalization. Changing that back and reverting to a previous save fixed it. I may be off-base, but it wouldn't work until I changed the capitalization back.

I think you really need to make an updater with Mash if you want to use an updated version of a mod that a save is already dependent upon. Otherwise all kinds of things can go wrong. Just changing the date of the file might work sometimes (depending on how severe the differences of the old and the new versions are), but certainly not always, and lead to crashes, or reference mismatches that can give you a hell of a headache later on.

Who's bright idea was it to increase the flood control time? 60 seconds was more than enough! *ahem* Anyway, back on topic. I've never had a problem updating a save with a new version of the mod until the code patch. Now, it kept spitting errors at me like being unable to find the Redguard feats, unable to find references to an NPC, etc. All I changed were a few scripts and some dialogue - I didn't add or take anything away, yet changing the file name caused issues. As for writing a new Mash interface, that's way beyond my abilities.

Totally agreed.


There are several possibilities why this could happen. It could be a bug in the MCP, or it could be an effect of an unsafe method of updating a mod ... or something different altogether. Also, keep in mind that Morrowind now (with the save corruption fix active) matches esps by filename. This is what fixed lots of doubling bugs which occur in unpatched Morrowind when you change load order. If you change the filename, then Morrowind (after the save corruption patch was applied) will assume that you removed one mod (the previous version of your mod), and added another, unrelated mod (the new version of your mod), and hence try to remove all content from your mod that it finds in the savegame. This can cause problems if you do not use Mash's Updater function. Before the code patch, Morrowind didn't even try to match esp names, which caused lots of doubling.

In any case I'd like to investigate this further. To do this I'd need the following files:

- the savegame that showed the behavior you described in your post, before you synced it with Mash (asuming that you did the latter)
- the same savegame *after* you synced it with Mash (if you did that)
- the previous version of the companion mod, i.e. the version that was active when the savegame was saved
- the *new* version of the mod

If you can upload these somewhere, I can have an in-depth look at it, and perhaps find the cause of the problem.


You misunderstood me. I didn't talk about updating Mash, I talked about using Mash's "Updater" function. This function is specifically designed for situations like yours (i.e. when a mod from a running game has been updated). I highly recommend having a look at it, because I guarantee that you will run into problems if you don't use it. It's like driving without a safety belt - it may work well for a long period of time, but sooner or later there will be crashes. Here are two links to the respective parts of Mash's documentation:

Updating Mods
Using an updated version of a mod

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