(Note: This project has been started and programmed, and is still being maintained, by Hrnchamd. I'm just starting a new thread because the previous one has reached its post limit.)

This is a project to fix bugs in Morrowind that just aren't possible to do with scripting alone. It comes in the form of a patch to the Morrowind program.

The primary fix included is a large change to the savegame code to reduce corruption, missing objects and CTDs. It also makes the game properly respond to changes in your load list, making inserting and removing mods from your save a lot safer.

Version 1.2 is out now.
Files: http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=19510

Version 1.2 is a minor update to addresses issues with the restore attributes fix.

Here is a summary of the current features:

- Month fix (missing Morning Star)
- Enchanted item display bug
- Mercantile bug
- Transparent clothes in the inventory
- Unarmored bug
- Spellmaking limits
- Enchanted item value increase
- Merchant equipping
- Restore attributes issue
- Stealing from knocked out NPCs
- Reflect fix
- NPC health bar change
- StreamMusic fix
- Calm spells fix
- Vampire stats fix
- ESP load order fix
- Damage fatigue change
- Map expansion
- Local ref bugfix

See the description on tesnexus for more details.

See the previous threads to see how this came about:
Repairing those Cogs #5
Repairing those Cogs #4
Repairing those Cogs #3
Repairing those Cogs #2
Repairing those Cogs #1

Note, if this crashes your Morrowind, please fill in this crash report and PM it to Hrnchamd:

Patch version (check the readme):
Detail what happens just before it crashes:
Detail any Morrowind error messages:

And most important, in the Windows crash dialog ("blabla has encountered an error and has stopped working"), click the more details link ("to see what data this error report contains", different wording for different Windows versions), then click "to view technical information", and copy and paste the first 20 lines.

I just had another idea. Is it possible to disallow your character from using "cure paralysis" potions to cure his paralysis? Obviously, it doesn't make any sense for your character to be able to do that.

And since you can always cure paralysis right away, but nobody in the game can ever cure it if you affect them with it, I think it unbalances the paralysis affect much like the absorb health affect was unbalanced before you fixed it. There's a lot to be gained if you affect your target with it, but practically nothing is lost if it's reflected.

I think this is an EPIC PROJECT - keep it up!!!

I think this would work very well with a normal game mod that addresses the problems, script related and level-balance related, that appeared from the implementation of this patch, such as the reflect thing - if anyone is willing that is.

If the "IsParalyzed" function would work, then this could be scripted quite easily: simply disable menus while the player is paralyzed. Unfortunately the function does not work in Morrowind.

Hrnchamd is the authority oin what's possible in the Code Patch - my estimation is that fixing the issue you describe would be possible, but very difficult. Given that the exploit you describe only affects people who choose to use it (i.e. you could simply choose to not open your inventory as long as you're paralyzed, and then wouldn't suffer from the exploit in any way), it may be too small a problem to justify the time and effort that would be needed to fix it.

I agree with your analysis that that the current behavior of "paralyze" is unbalanced, but the easiest way to balance it is to simply take no action while being paralyzed.

Hehe, it seems we came to the same conclusion. I opened the CS with a mind to simply change the names and effects of the cure paralysis potions in the game, but didn't even finish this 30-second project before saying "who cares? I'm never gonna use the potions anyway." :^)

Cure Paralysis is a touchy point.

On the one hand, it's not realistic maybe to be able to drink a potion when you can't move.
On the other hand, you can't cast spells at all, making the "cure paralysis on self" spells absolutely useless.
On the third hand, few things are more annoying than losing control of your character and being unable to do anything except quitting the game, reloading a save, or watching your character getting helplessly slaughtered.
On the fourth hand, I thank my summoned bonelord for helping with the enumeration of these points.

So, preventing the use of potions when paralyzed would only be fair if on the other hand it became possible to cast self-targeting spells with a "cure paralysis" effect even while paralyzed.

Regardless of how you go about it, you'll have one element that's useless and doesn't make sense: either the cure paralysis potions or the cure paralysis on self spells and scrolls.

Nope. I'd like neither. If my enemies do nothing once I've paralyzed them, it's only fair that I return the favor. :^)

You could use player->GetEffect sEffectParalysis.

If my enemies don't reload a save when I kill them until they're the ones who win, it's only fair that I return the favor and play without making saves.

I mean, there are things that cure paralysis. They exist. They are out there. People are creating them so as to cure paralysis. As far as I'm concerned, real fairness would be having the enemies use their own cure paralysis potions, if they have any, when they're paralyzed. Not making a whole class of item useless.

In a game like Morrowind, we usually do things because they are in character, this is exactly why such games are called "role playing games." For example, I can choose to have my character join a particular guild because he wishes to, I can have him use a particular type of weapon or school of magick that he favors, I can have him rest in a particular inn because he likes it, I can make him eat a particular food item because it's his favorite, I can even have him drink potions to cure his afflictions.

One thing I cannot do in-character is watch him die, then bring him back to life. So when I re-load a save, I am breaking the continuity of my role-play. The loading sequence is not a resurrection, it's not a second life, it's not in-character in any sense of the term. It's just something I do because I don't want to accept the fact that my character has died and is dead, which would force me to create a new character.

Similarly, I cannot have my paralyzed character drink a cure paralyzation potion while remaining in-character, simply because it is NOT in character. My character cannot do that, he's paralyzed. Curing paralysis by drinking a potion breaks the continuity of the role-play because my character does something that is not in character.

I accept loading saves without complaint despite the fact that it breaks the role-play, yet here I am complaining about curing paralysis for that very reason... it seems like a contradiction. However, it doesn't have to be. Many games do not allow you to load saves after your character has died. A willful person could do the same in Morrowind and I have seen posts by a few people saying they play like this. Every thing that breaks the role-play is an evil and every person participating in the role-play has to decide for them self where to draw the line. For myself, I'm usually pretty OK with loading saves, but curing my own paralyzation is a no-no. For some people, even loading saves is too much of a stretch. :^)

The role-play problem is really at the heart of my disagreement with the cure paralysis potions, the balance issues were an afterthought. So I won't address your example in the context of a balance argument. I think that would be very silly and pointless anyway.

request

1
fix guard
guards can only attack creature which intend to attack player. they won't attack hostile npcs, such as bandit.

2
arrow/bolt travel route
when player shot an arrow/bolt with a bow in the wildness. sometimes the arrow didn't go the crossdot way. it's travel route gone higher or lower then where the crossdot is.

Why not beta test Fligg's mod that's doing exactly that (and more!)?
Isn't that an effect of marksman skill?

Great job on this one.

Another feature/option I would love to see would be to remove the stackability of the same magic effect. So if I'm wearing boots X of fortify speed +20 and I drink a potion Y of fortify speed +30 and another potion Z of fortify speed +15, my actual total fortify speed effect would equal +30 (the highest rated effect) and not +65 (the combined effect of all 3).

I know that this is not a bug, as both Morrowind and Oblivion allow you to do this, but it is something that has really annoyed me about both games. I have no idea if this is possible, but I think it would go a long way to balancing the game.

It might go a long way to balancing the game in that it would remove the exponential increase exploits in alchemy, restoration, etc. However, it would be so detrimental to *normal* gameplay that I would never consider implementing it in my game.

My mage would be limited to receiving intelligence bonuses from only her highest FORT INT item. Her spell absorption bonus would only count from her birthsign - goodbye Staff of Magnus, goodbye Necromancer's Amulet. Casting reflect is useless so long as she's wearing the Robe of Drake's Pride: goodbye Ring of Equity. Forget about negating your weaknesses as a High Elf or building up any kind of reliable defense against magicka at all against the highest level creatures and mages in the game.

By doing away with those exponential exploits, you've also done away with the only way my mage could ever make very good enchantments like *every single* NPC enchanter in the game can make.

In short, I think that idea would go a long way to completely *unbalancing* many parts of the game, and it wouldn't be worth it just to eliminate the exponential exploits and other minor things you may feel are unbalancing.

I think that would be more of a personal tweak than a fix.

Is there any chance someone could put this up on rapidshare or something other? I've tried reporting the bug to TesNexus 3 times over the past 3 months and still don't have an answer.

I can host it until the problem is solved. LINK

Hrnchamd, why don't you upload to PES for people who can't download it from TESNexus?

Detrimental is a little harsh. Yes, it is a tweak, but one that is very hard if not impossible to implement with mods. Many RPGs use a system of only counting the highest magic effect. Vanilla Morrowind is a pretty easy game. You really don't need +500 Int bonus or 100% spell reflection. If you do use those sort of bonuses than I really can't understand how you're actually enjoying the game. You're basically a god. One of the fun things about playing a High Elf is having those weaknesses, not easilly negating them as can be done in MW.

I understand that it is not a bug fix. However, it seems that the only way to do such a tweak would be through a code patch. I'm just proposing it as an idea and only as an option.

I

In earlier threads, there was talk of a variable level of zoom for the map expansion. Did that not end up making it?

Regarding the "stackability" of bonuses: Personally, I'd welcome a change very much - like pzr, I think that Morrowinds current mechanism of simply adding effects to a grand total is a cause of many exploits and balance problems. The alternative "only the highest bonus counts" that has been discussed is a bit too limiting imho, but there are other alternatives. For example, imagine a system where bonuses *do* stack, but with increasing loss: For the first bonus to a stat you get the full effect, for the second only half of its effect, for the third only a third of it, etc. This would make it still wortwhile to stack bonuses, but less exploitable. Another alternative is to introduce detrimental side effects when stacking bonuses, like an increasing chance for a discharge between magical objects, which can damage your health or magicka.

However, all of these suggestions are probably out of scope for the Morrowind Code Patch. Implementing them would require Hrnchamd to identify every single bit of code that's involved in adding bonuses, and then squeeze a more complicated formula into the space that contained a mere addition before. Since Morrowind's design of its bonus system was always based on a simple addition of effects, and additions are much quicker (and easier to do) in code than function calls, there's a good chance that bonus additions are scattered all over the code. Thus, changing them would be a *lot* of work, probably too much for something that's not really a bug in the first place.

I think that for such tweaks, OpenMW is a better platform. I'm on the mailing lists for this project, and I was already planning to suggest the implementation of a single "stacking" function, which gets called every time when two bonuses to the same stat are at work. If this single function governs the stacking behavior of the whole engine, then it will be easy to mod it, and to customize it according to personal tastes. However, OpenMW is not yet in a state where such questions would matter.

Hrnchamd was working on a map autozoom, but said that it might not be possible. As far as I can see, the autozoom feature is not included in the Code Patch. I don't know whether it turned out to be impossible, or whether it was "just" too difficult to implement in the given time.

There also was some talk about a user-defined zoom level for the map expansion, but this came up after feature freeze - there was no further discussion about it since it was already clear that time constraints would prevent it from being implemented in any case.

Or for those people who have discovered TESNexus's complete lack of ethics (frequent & repeated uploading against the author's wishes) & refuse to use that site

Sorry for the delay in replying, I went away for a couple of days.

I've checked, and funnily enough, I do still have the saves - I've been largely playing or modding Oblivion lately. However, I think I know what caused the problem. Although I did say that the mods I added after recruiting Constance were all positioned lower in the load order (which was true), I have since remembered that prior to recruiting her, I did add a couple of mods above her. Also, I had earlier visited Gnisis, so Constance would (I presume) have been present in the save. Just for clarity, here's a list of what happened:

1. Visited Gnisis.
2. Added mods above Constance while in Vivec.
3. Visited Gnisis & recruited Constance.
4. Added mods below Constance while in Balmora.
5. Visited Gnisis & found a duplicate Constance.

I'm guessing that when I visited Gnisis the first time, it kicked off her quest-line script, and when I later visited Gnisis after advancing her quest, it created a duplicate Constance because it had lost the scripted reference to the original Constance. Or something like that. Is this likely?


OK. Is the same bug responsible for the fact that if I have Morgana, Laura, and Constance following me, one of them (usually Morgana) will sometimes disappear completely when I travel through a door?

Eloise

Don't worry, I was away too. Thanks for following up.


It's certainly possible, although in this case the duplicate would have been created in step (2), so there already would have been two Constances in Gnisis in step (3). I don't know where in Gnisis you meet her and whether she wanders around - if she has a fixed position, then there would have been a twin right next to her, which you certainly would have recognized.

I also noticed that Constance's readme includes a warning about putting her in wander mode before adding mods because otherwise her recall script might have problems. I haven't looked at this script yet, and I currently don't see a way how this could cause doubling if mods are added after hers, but there may be another explanation for the doubling along that road. I'll have a look at it.

In any case, the savegames would certainly help to determine what happened, so if you send them to me, I'll have a look at it. I'll PM you my mail address.

No, I think that's a bug in Laura's script. She's set to wander away from you whenever you go through a load door and I think the engine gets confused sometimes as to which companion is in wander mode and which isn't. I had somebody have the same problems while using my companion mod and others. I think I fixed by changing the testing conditions I use for door checking.

What happens with companions levitating through doors is that their levitation turns into fastfall and they slam into the ground. If you set their acrobatics to 200, they'll survive the fall. The other option is to have them wait a few seconds before teleporting to the player when going through a load door. It's not an elegant solution, but it seems to work. One thing I would like fixed, if possible, is the reversal of CE items on NPCs - when they cross cells, their CE items stack until they reach their peak, then they reverse. For example, a fortify strength item could turn into a drain strength item after the NPC crosses a cell.

Thanks for starting a new thread, the last one ran up the post count pretty quick.

Arrow and bow alignment: It's far too much a modelling problem. You're not shooting arrows out of your eye socket, so the crosshair isn't going to line up exactly on your target.

Map zooming: It was half-completed when I decided to release the local ref patch, with all the work that requires. Still needs an interface to DirectInput and some integration testing which would have taken a few days. Do you still want this feature?

Bonus stacking: The attribute buff/debuff system is unified in a single function. It's possible to implement intelligent stacking penalties for everything, but of course there's problems with that. No-one will agree on a good penalty function, and people will still find holes in the method. You have to take another approach; patch your brain so you no longer want to abuse potions.

People aren't sending me CTD reports at all, so I guess the savegame patch isn't crashalicious. Will try and arrange some other hosting at Fliggerty's or something.

If possible, yeah. It would be really great if you could do it.

(Perhaps an easier option than variable zoom would be a choice of permanent 'zoom-level' that could be chosen in the nice UI you have set up for the patcher, which is so intuitive to use)

The crashes for me are sporadic. One saved game is perfectly fine while another CTDs while trying to load. I can't select and copy the information from the Dr. Watson report, that's why I haven't sent it -I'm too lazy to type all of that information down. I could send screenshots, though... Anyway, I'll send you something if it decides to crash again after I update my companion mod.

IMHO, the cure paralysis "gripe" is not logical in any way. Give a monster a restore health potion, and he uses it. Give a NPC a Reflect Potion and he uses it. Give someone a cure Paralysis potion and they will use it. If you have issues with playing with paralysis, then don't use it. It's really simple, in that aspect.

There are plenty of ways to prevent yourself from being paralyzed. If you think it's the worst thing ever, then well, I can't help you.

To each his own, if he seems crazy. No offense.

As for bonus stacking, I'd like it to stay the way it is. Literally, use your brain like Hrachand said, and don't abuse the skills.

I know it's a matter of personal opinion, but Morrowind isn't really the best game for D & D hardcore rules cubed.
At least, I think it doesn't need uber balancing/nerfing.

That's just me though. I like to make potions, and at least I only use Feather to carry items. No need to make something that breaks every weapon in one hit...

Imho, that's all
Also, what is all this madness surrounding Tes Nexus, which has changed over the months...

Thanks for reminding me about using my brain. Maybe all of us could use our brains and realize that playing games in the first place is really just a big waste of time. Perhaps using the time to go to med school and trying to find a cure for cancer would serve us better.

I realize that I do not have to gulp 2000 fortify potions. I realize that I don't have to put on those boots of fortify strength +8000 and also cast a fortify strength +4000 spell. I really, really get that. I'm thinking about a situation in which you have Item A (Fortify STR +20 and Fortify SPD +20) and Item B (Fortify STR +30 and Fortify INT +30). You want to use both to get a STR, SPD, and INT bonus, but not to have a total +50 STR bonus.

I know some people might like it, while other won't. I only proposed it as an option. Since Hrachand mentioned the "attribute buff/debuff system is unified in a single function," then it does seem possible to do. I for one would be extremely greatful if he did, but I also understand that it is not a fix, but a tweak.

Haven't downloaded this yet but seems that you put a lot of effort in it. Great work!

btw, is it compatible with UMP by thelys?

Yes, the Morrowind Code Patch specifically addresses problems that could not be fixed by mods like the UMP. The MCP and the UMP should complement each other nicely.

Side note, you may want to check quorn's thread about the UUMP, there's a new and improved version of the UMP in the works.

Hey, now, pzr, I didn't mean to insult you.

Honestly, I stated my opinion, and you came back with pithiness.

I admit I don't quite get what you mean when you say.

But I didn't mean at all to make fun of you.

If you actually can't understand the logic behind a paralyzed person being UNABLE to move in order to drink and swallow a potion, then I'm afraid you understand very little about the way your body moves and functions. That, or your understanding of cause-effect relationships is severely under-developed. I think it's much more likely that you can easily understand the logic, you've just missed the very obvious by not looking at the complete problem (or my previous post). I'll try once more to explain.

When I was in high school, about eighteen years old, one of my best buds was named Bob (fake name, real person). One of Bob's best buds was his dad, Joe (again fake name, real person). When I visited Bob at his house, it wasn't rare for Joe to join us after getting home from work; he took us fishing, hiking, and shooting quite often.

One day I got a call from Bob, he sounded pretty upset as he told me his dad was in a bad car wreck and they didn't know if he would survive. To make a long story short, after a few days it seemed very likely that he would survive, but he would never be the same - he was completely paralyzed from the neck down.

Now, this is the part you might find interesting because you didn't understand its relevance before making your last post. Joe was one of the biggest and strongest men I've ever seen in my life and probably the strongest I've ever actually known. However, once he was paralyzed, his strength was useless. He couldn't get himself dressed, he couldn't drive to work, he couldn't feed himself, he couldn't go shooting, fishing, hiking, or hunting. If I dropped a magic bottle in his lap, hell, even if I put it in his hand, and told him it would cure his paralysis if he drank it, it would have been COMPLETELY USELESS to him. Even after recovering slightly and regaining control of his breathing and other core body functions, as well as the limited use of a few fingers (allowing him to control an electric wheel-chair), he STILL remained in a state where the magic potion would be useless to him - he would absolutely NEED someone else to administer the potion to him.

Just as the real-life Joe is unable to lift a drink to his mouth, so is my character unable to lift a drink to his mouth when he is paralyzed. Therefor my character is doing the impossible when he drinks a cure paralysis potion to cure his paralysis. If you need an explanation of why this is a problem, consult my previous post.


You know, tagging your post with the words "no offense" does NOT magically make your post inoffensive; and telling someone to "use" their brain is not nearly the equivalent of what Hrnchamd was doing when he advised us to "patch" our brains. What he said was a joke; instead of patching the game to remove the exploits, we should patch our brains so we don't use the exploits. You wouldn't tell someone to use something unless they currently aren't using it, otherwise the suggestion is redundant. Therefor telling someone to use their brain *is* insulting, while telling them to patch it is not.

Let's keep it civil, people. It won't help anybody if "Repairing the Cogs" threads get locked because we indulge in flame wars.

Bycote, Gez: I think you're viewing the identical problem from very different perspectives. Bycote puts the realism in the foreground (paralyzed people cannot move), while Gez concentrates on game balance (being able to quaff potions as a compensation for not being able to cast while paralyzed) and feelings of other modders (whose work would go to waste if paralyzed players couldn't use items). Both are valid perspectives, they are just very different.

Personally, I lean more towards the realism argument. I don't see a need for a compensation for not being able to cast when paralyzed, because I don't see a problem with not being able to cast in the first place. I see the hand movements as an integral and necessary part of the casting (not just ornamental), so it's perfectly logical for me that I can't cast when I can't move my hands, there is no compensation needed. And regarding game balance, I see no good reason why it should be so easy to get out of paralysis. Regarding the work of other modders, I don't see it threatened by optional changes.

However, the whole discussion is rather moot in this thread anyway, since Hrnchamd doesn't seem extremely fond of the idea to change the way how paralysis is handled in the first place. I guess there are better things to get worked up about than a discussion about how to best implement a feature that apparently won't be implemented anyway.

The same goes for alternatives to the way how bonuses stack. I'd like to see it changed, other people don't, and lastly it's Hrnchamd's decision whether he wants to try his hand at it. He doesn't seem to, quoting valid and understandable reasons, and nothing will be achieved by getting at each other's throats over changes that won't be implemented anyway.

That said, David, I found your post rather offensive too, and I wonder why you seem so astonished about pzr's reaction, imho he could've reacted much worse to your posts and I'd still understand it. However, this thread really isn't meant to be a personal battlefield, so I suggest that you write him a PM. I'll make a start and write the rest of what I have to say in a PM to you.

And, in an attempt to get back to the topic of the thread - has anyone had problems or confusions getting the code patch to work in an environment with several Morrowind installations? I've seen three cases now where I suspect that people thought they applied the patch, but may not actually start the patched exe due to confusions between different install directories. If this is indeed a problem, then it might make sense to put some easily recognizable mark on a patched exe, so that people can see at once whether they are really using the patched exe (and perhaps even which version they have). This might make support easier in the future. What do you think, and what might be a good place to display something like that? (Note: Hrnchamd has already said that changing Morrowind's version number would be a bad idea since it will confuse other programs which expect a certain version of the exe to be present.)

I didn't have any problems installing the Code Patch once I tried to apply it to the correct EXE file. :^) And I haven't encountered any problems in-game while running my 300+ mods alongside it.

Suggestion: maybe you could add a watermark to the title screen to indicate the Code Patch is in use?

DavidB1111, I wasn't insulted. I was just a little annoyed mostly because I've seen so many posts over the past few years in which a person proposes some fix/tweak to MW and always gets several "just use your brain and don't abuse the skills" type of replies. But really, don't worry, I didn't take it as some personal insult.

However, the only way you can make it up is to post a reply here that you fully agree with my bonus stacking idea and beg Hrachand to add it to his patch.

Geez people, cool your jets. This is only a game, we aren't debating economic policy or nuclear disarmament.
Edit: Nevermind, a peace treaty was obviously signed

I'm curious: If an NPC has a cure paralyzes potion, and you paralyze them, will they use it?

I do have a preference in regards to the bonus stacking, but I have an alternative instead. If it's possible, why not create a utility that would change such a tweak to one of several alternatives different from Vanilla MW? I believe you could easily take the given bonuses and write several different algorithms to handle how they should be dealt with.

Anyways, Hrnchamd, great job, and you too Psyringe.

Last I heard, Hrnchamd said my idea for disabling spell absorption for "friendly" effects was possible. So I'm wondering, is there any chance you'll implement this in the code patch? Or is it another idea for the scrap heap? ;^)

How's that for realism: why would people make cure paralysis potions if they're useless?

Just a heads up...

[edit - removed commentary]

Maybe this could help point to the issue with MCP patch getting applied to the wrong install in multi MW installs?
I didn't want to mess around in it, but the registry probably has something to do with the above and how MCP renames Morrowind.exe before doing its thing.

Basically, the point of mods is to give the player choice.

One option we don't have here is destructive criticism. This topic is for the sole purpose of discussing this mod, any bugs and features related to it, and questions on installation and use.

If you prefer another mod, go and use that one.

I'd be glad to host it. I also have a bug-tracker as part of my download system that might be a useful thing for you to take advantage of.


They should...in theory they do. But they usually don't. I'll make sure they do when I'm done with overhauling them though...(and as with everything in my NPC Combat Behavior Overhaul, it will be optional!)

Also...I don't want to get hijack this thread...but I can easily make a mod that will disable access to the menu when you are paralyzed. That should fix that little issue. If it's something that you would want, PM me. If I don't hear anything from anyone, I won't make it.

No, these matters are unrelated. Any confusion between Morrowind installs happens because some tools access the local directory, whereas other tools access the directory specified in Morrowind's registry entries. DOS filenames are not a factor.

As much as I appreciate your skill in analyzing the issue you had, and your intention to help other people by publishing it here, I don't think Bethesda condones anything that could be seen as an advice, on their own official boards, about how to break their copy protection. It might be better to remove this piece of info, also because any problems that could arise from the procedure you describe are problems solely caused by the unsupported program you used; Morrowind and the MCP worked correctly.

Sorry if I sound ungrateful; I don't mean to - I know that you spent time for this research and only want to help.

No problem. I'll remove the post.

Actually I was reading some of the other threads related to the MW multi installs and thought what I had run into might be relevant in regards to how the registry was storing info. Since it was a patch process as well, thought it might help.

My character was wearing the Fists of Rangalf (or whatever they're called) and ran into a one of those Greater Bonewalkers. He had a constant effect restore strength enchantment working. After he got hit by the thing, and whacked it, the spell effect only restored his strength back up to its natural level -- not the level +20 (thanks to the Fist bonus).

This fix is supposed to solve that, no?

Yes, it is.

From your description it is not clear whether you had the fix installed (which would mean that we'd try to find out why the patch didn't work as it should in your case), or whether you don't have it installed (and merely ask whether the code patch would fix a problem that you're having in your game). Please specify.

I downloaded 1.1, played it for a while. Then downloaded the patch (for 1.1 to 1.2). I think I did it right. Replaced the items in the old 1.1 version with the new patched version, and then ran the program again. That's what I've been using since then.

That solved the problem I was having with the the Lady birthsign in combination with constant effect restore (the character's personality and endurance scores doubled, or tripled). And so far everything else has been working like a charm.

I have a kind of a "cheat" mod I use, really I think of it as a convenience mod. I generally give my characters some constant effect attributes (like restore fatigue, 3pts) just so I don't have to stop every 30 seconds and throw a spell while running from place to place (there's a lot of running in this game). I also give them this constant effect restore attributes spell effect so I don't have to teleport to an imperial shrine every time I meet one of those Bonewalkers -- there are a lot of 'em in the game, and it gets repetitious.

Let me know what info you need from me, I'll be more than glad to send it over. It could very well be a mistake on my end.

The problem with implementing a MCP version number in the executable is that everything in the patch is optional. You could patch the executable with version 1.2, with all options turned off. The result is what? The only way to check what's really in there is to check each byte of the patch, and say if a particular fix has been applied.

As for things like "fixing" spell stacking or ability to drink anti-paralysis potions, personally I feel that these are "features", and have lower priority than real engine bugs. So I would like to propose that we keep a list of things we would like to nominate for getting fixed in some future release, and that we apply some sort of sensible rules. Like, "bug fixes" before "features", perhaps. Or stability before cosmetic fixes. I already have a list of about 5 engine bugs that I'd like to propose, but I've sort of been waiting for Hrnchamd to open up discussion for new bugs, since it's been stated a few times that right now the goal is to ensure stability of the current patch.

The main reason for an indication of a patched EXE, however, was that the patch was sometimes applied correctly to the wrong EXE (or the wrong, unpatched EXE was run), not that individual patch components were failing to install. This could be tracked by a version number.

Sure, but I still think that since all the patches are optional, this could be misleading. That's all I meant.

Since I believe the MCP installer does check each individual patch and tells you if it's installed, it seems to me the best way to check. Perhaps the only thing missing is for the installer to tell you the exact path name of the executable it is checking/installing? Wouldn't that solve the problem in the most informative way?

Idea for a version number: version.flag. So your example (patched with nothing) would be 1.2.0. If all nineteen (IIRC) parts of the patch are applied, though, it would be 1.2.524287.

But doesn't that just duplicate information that the installer gives? I guess I don't see why just re-running the installer to check if the patch is installed isn't sufficient. Especially if, as has been suggested, the version number is displayed by the game, it would be quicker to run the installer to check than it is to run the game.

Well, that's just the way I see it. Wasn't really intending to make a big deal over it.
Cheers.

I'm not 100% sure about the following scenario yet, but it should explain the difference. Imagine the following:

- User has installed Morrowind to directory "Morrowind". Now wants to try the code patch, so he makes a new directory "MorroPatched" and copies everything over

- User unzips code patch into "MorroPatched" directory and applies it. The Morrowind.exe in MorroPatch gets patched.

- User starts the Morrowind Launcher in the MorroPatched directory. The launcher looks at the registry for the patch to Morrowind and starts the unpatched Morrowind.exe in the "Morrowind" directory.

- User sees that the patch apparently made no difference

- User exits Morrowind, starts the patch program again. The program checks the local Morrowind.exe and says that the patch *has* been applied.

- User concludes that the patch isn't working.

I'm not 100% sure about the details (I don't know whether the launcher looks up the registry path, but even if it doesn't, other tools will). But I'm pretty sure that it is possible (and understandable) to arrive at the false conclusion that the patch isn't working due to multiple install interferences like these. There was such a case just yesterday in the "Annoying music" thread. Hence, it would be good if it could be determined in the running game whether it is actually the patched exe that's running. This would make support easier - imho.

Thanks for the offer. I'll try to reproduce the situation on my end and see what happens. If I can't reproduce it here, I'll get back to you with more questions.

I made a simple mod, but I imagine a ring with constant effect attribute restoration would also serve your purpose.

I had tested most combinations of spell effects / enchantments when v1.2 was released, and they worked correctly. I'll run some tests with bonewalkers now, since their curses might be treated differently than spells or enchantments.

If you want to check whether the restore attributes fix is working at all in your game, you can activate the "Morrowind Code Patch Showcase" mod that came with the download. Just follow the instructions, the restore attributes fix is the first thing being demonstrated.

Like I said, I might have a made a mistake in patching from 1.1 to 1.2. Since the patch fixed the problem with my birthsign, I figured it must be working.

Could there be difference between creating a special "modded" ability for attribute restoration, rather than having made a CE magical item, that screws up the effect?

Okay, I couldn't reproduce the problem unless I removed the fists of Randagulf prior to casting the restore strength spell.

Casting a long-term restore spell (or equipping an item with a constant restore effect) will restore the stat up to the value that was the maximum when the spell was started (or the item was equipped). So, if you have 40 strength, and a bonewalker reduced that to 30, and you cast a long-term restore strength spell, then this spell will restore your strength up to 40 - even if you equip the fists of Randagulf in the meantime. Could this be what happened in your game?

If so, then the problem should go away if you simply cast the spell again, with the fists of Randagulf equipped.

I don't know if this is a problem with base game or a mod that does it. NPC's who have unarmored skill highest out of the armor skills can not equip any piece of armor. That means quite a few people run around half clothed or barefoot. Can this be fixed with a patch?

It's because, well, NPCs will always use what provides the most protection. You can "patch" it by using a mod that raises the other armor skills for an NPC. Are you using Aragon's monk mod? If so, check out Quorn's expansion to the unofficial patch - it raises the medium armor skill of the Televanni gaurds to make them wear their armor rather than run around in their knickers.

So I had a funny thing happen when testing this with the esp provided. I was checking the restore attributes fix. My agility was a baseline of 40. I put the ring on, which put it to 50. I then drank the potion, which dropped it 20 points rather than 10. When I removed the ring, my agility was 20; it required two potions to restore it all the way obviously. But the fix did work, I was able to raise it all the way to 50 again with the ring equipped. It just baffles me why the damage agility 10 pts potion dropped it by 20. :s

First off, let me apologize to Bycote. I'm sorry that your friend's dad was paralyzed.

But my point that I obviously could have phrased better, was that in the scope of the game, and the way it's made, realism doesn't equal sense. I understand your passionate words for it, and I apologize for the very bad way I phrased it.

Let me be clear here, I'm not the most observant person in the world when it comes to noticing things on line. But in my other post, I didn't think anything I said was so offensive. I believe that this was a classic case of misunderstanding, or miscommunication.

Again, nothing I say in this post should be taken as offensive.
But I want to clear the air here. I always though certain things in Morrowind were fine the way they were. Maybe not Paralysis, but there are a few things...I just don't want angry people organized into a lynch mob in real life...over something I say online.

Edit: Also, my sig should explain most of the problems I may have with communication.
Bottom line, I'm an idiot. I just wanted to clear the air.

If you take offense over anything I said here, please, don't. Nothing I say in this post is meant to be offensive. This is not a "no offense intended" moment either.

Edit: Also, Pzn, I'm glad you responded to me with this.


While I don't quite understand the bonus stacking concept you offered, I will agree. Your reply was very nice. Somethings just go right over my head, which is possibly why Bycote is trying to summon the Dark Brotherhood after me.

Now, on to the restore attribute bug fix.

It works for me, and it beats the original bug which gave me 600 speed. I'll do some more testing myself later to determine if I'm just lucky.

Edit the Third: My stupid wording issue on line, and my repeated use of the words "No Offense" streams from Asperger's Syndrome. This is sadly enough not a joke. It's the truth. It may also be why I say something, and someone else takes egregious offense over it.
(Also, I despise using the mental Disorder card) Sometimes though, I think I have to.

Another question concerning the RAF (restore attribute fix):

I'm playing with Madd leveler, and using restore ingredients leaves them capped at 99, the fortifications just won't be restored.
Just tested with an enchanted ring, fortify agility (courtesy Galbedir), ingredients Black Anther and a potion from kitty downstairs, and the restore didn't work at all ...

Some more trials:
Merchant in the demo cell equips helmet and robe,
under-water sheen on enchantet clothes fix works ...
spell effects limit 100, time 1440, not fixed
(brand/new install, 0 other mods, character fresh off the boat and all)

off, to do some more tests .....

and YES, it´s switched ON, for all effects

Any ideas?

Cheers,
J.M.

Edit: see further, in post # 68

Psyringe:

Aha!

This is particular spell isn't something I cast; it's a constant effect ability that I added to my character (Azura's Restoration, I call it) via the console when I start a game. Since I added the ability prior to acquire the Gloves of Rangui, then that's probably the problem.

But hang on a second, cause I'm not sure I fully understand. In this case, I 1) gave my character the constant effect restoration spell ability; 2) acquired the Gauntlets of Ricotta; and then 3) was attacked by a Bone Daddy (or whatever they're called. Apologies if my terminology isn't 100% accurate). At the time I acquired the Fists, my character had a natural strength of 51 (and was running a constant effect spell that restored his strength 2pts/second). The Fists increased his strength to an enhanced 71. After he was attacked, his strength was reduced (to whatever), and after slaying the Bonewalker, it was gradually restored (by his constant effect ability) to a total of 51 enhanced. There it stopped. When he took off the Fists, his natural strength was revealed to actually be 31 (in red), and gradually began to restore again to its original level (51), thanks to the restoration ability. Then he put on the Fists again to receive the +20 strength enhancement, back to the original total of 71.

If I understand you correctly, with MCP, the Azura's Restoration spell should have restored his natural strength automatically to 51, and ignored the +20 bonus provided by the Fists. Is that correct? In that case, something seems not be working.

Did you run your test with a constant effect restore attributes spell?

I think that is how restore works in the unpatched game, also.

I always remove any CE equipment prior to restoration of any sort and then put it back on after restoration.

sieboldii

Yes. The "restore attribute" effect cannot restore bonuses that were added afterwards. If I understood it correctly (Hrnchamd will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong), the spell (or enchantment) determines the stat bonus when the spell starts, and takes it into account. However, it doesn't check whether the stat bonus may have increased in the meantime.


Ideally yes, but this is not how the effect currently works. I do not know whether it is possible to make it working the way you describe, and/or whether doing so would open up new problems.

Currently, your best bet is probably to remove and re-add Azura's Restoration once after you put on the Fists of Randagulf. Not an ideal solution, but still a bit better than unpatched Morrowind, where you have to remove the fists everytime you want to restore the attribute.

You could also experiment with temporary bonuses. Example: Start a new character, give him an item that boosts all his attributes by 100 points, and equip it. Then add Azura's restoration. Then remove the item. This *could* work in a way that the spell can now deal correctly with all bonuses that are lower or equal to 100, but I can't guarantee it - I'd need a better understanding of the exact mechanism of how this effect works before I can be sure.


Not this time, I made a long-term spell instead. The effects were identical though.

Gotcha. Thanks, Psyringe.

Actually, it's not that big a deal. I can go old school. In fact, I can simply modify Azura's Restoration so that I can cast an automatically successful restore all attributes x points for y (cheap) magika, and add it to his spell list. That way, if he gets hit by something that drains or damages his attributes, he can cast one simple spell to fix it.

It's a cheat, I guess, but a convenient one.

A new, and somewhat discomforting result from further testing:

The exact same files, used for testing on:

1) my Dec'07 El-cheapo (400$) internet rig:
Nothing works, at all .... strike out the sheen, above, there's no sheen on this one, even without any fix
(fringe benefit, from low-end video/graphics card?)

2) late 2002 high-end game rig (2000$) and transfer via USB-stick:
Everything works, but the restoration with Madd Leveler remains capped at 99 (which I struck out in my earlier)
P.S. ... edit: little thing, damaging stats, fortified above 100, these do NOT turn red, but get restored as expected.

Both units work winth Win XP, the internet rig has lots more on firewall, virus prots and so, while the game rig has virtually no defenses up .... and is not ever used for web access.

So: it seems, hardware and/or software can make or break the Cogs-fix ....
and I don't have the foggiest of ideas, why?

Cheers,
J.M.

Edit: solved

Do you have more than one Morrowind install on the machine where the fix doesn't seem to work, and what exactly do you do to start Morrowind there?

Edit: The reason I'm asking is this: If nothing works, although the patch program told you that the patch was applied successfully, then the most likely explanation is that you're not running the patched exe, but an unpatched one. This can happen when you have several Morrowind installs, and (for example) start Morrowind with the "Morrowind Launcher.exe". This will start the Morrowind.exe in the directory where that is specified in the registry as Morrowind's install directory, which might not be the directory of the installation where you applied the code patch. This could also explain why it works on a different computer.

Yes, 6+ on both machines, some straightforward as intended in a BS folder, some pure, Zero-mods, some in a Games/BS folder,
some just called Morrowind, some called Morrowind&MODNAME, and even a few as Morrowind or Morrowind+MOD straight under Program Files.

Since it became so complex and flexible, these last 2 years, I never use a desktop icon for start, just go to the directory I want to use and doubleclick the MorrowindLauncher.exe
(in this case the one updated and backed-up by Cogs) and since on the I-rig, this is my only install with Cogs and demo-cell, presence of demo-cell proves, I had all functioning from only this place .... I hope

Cheers,
J.M. (J, for Juggler ... )

This will always start the same Morrowind.exe - specifically, the one in the directory which is specified as Morrowind's install path in the registry. I guess this hasn't led to problems yet because all of your installs had an identical Morrowind.exe. In your case, the following probably happens:

- You patched the Morrowind.exe in directory X
- You started the Launcher in directory X
- The Launcher looks up Morrowinds install path in the registry, let's call it A.
- The Launcher starts the Morrowind.exe in A.
- You don't see any patches in effect because your game doesn't run a patched exe.

Start the Morrowind.exe in the directory where you installed the code patch, directly. This should work.

Your running MW in an unsupported config - Bethesda intended for there to be only one install of the game.
MorrowindLauncher.exe is tied to the registry, which calls the MW exe from the install dir specified by MW's registry entry.
However, MorrowindLauncher.exe uses the morrowind.ini located in its dir to load plugins, which in an unsupported config could be different from the ini located with the Morrowind.exe that actually gets called.

Relying on the presence of a mod to determine that a patched version of the game is running would be foley in a multi-install.

As suggested, your better off bypassing the MorrowindLauncher.exe and running the intended Morrowind.exe itself. That way you avoid any influence from the registy regarding which Morrowind.exe gets launched.

Ouch, and I thought it seemed so simple ...

To get this straight:

The Cogs then updates and B/U the Morrowind.exe, and leaves MWLauncher.exe untouched?

And for some more insights: anything in the MW.esm and MW.bsa files? Or the .ini?
Is anything retained in the saves?
Or do those remain interchangeable to other installs, as long as correct masters and plugins are present?

Just in case, if ever I might wish to transfer some but not all, from hither to thither ...

Cheers,
J.M.

Edit: and just for info, the game rig - where it works - had MW path install under Programs/Bethesda Softworks/MW, while testing is in a Programs/Games/MW&Cogs dir, while the Internet rig - where it doesn't - has the Cogs under the Programs/BS folder with 4 others, like MW&UUMPP and MW-Pure(zero mods) .... so, if common logic prevails, it's still not logical

Help, I'm drowning in logic!

Edit # 2: but you were right about the launcher, it's now working on both rigs ..... even if I'm not sure, why

Yes. There's little point in patching the launcher since the launcher is actually doing its job correctly - although it didn't do what you expected, but that's because you used it a way that Bethesda didn't support; it actually does work as Bethesda wanted it to work.


Neither of these are changed by the Morrowind Code Patch. The MCP only affects the Morrowind.exe.


Saves remain compatible (except saves for which you switched the KRR feature on, but you can simply reload these, save them normally, and then they are compatible again). One caveat: The savegame corruption fix which is included in the MCP fixes a bug that can lead to crashes while loading a save. It's possible that a savegame crashes when trying to load it with regular Morrowind (because it triggers the bug), but loads okay in the code-patched Morrowind (because the bug doesn't exist there).


There may be other factors involved when starting a game from the Morrowind Launcher, which can explain what you describe, but in any case, starting Morrowind.exe directly will work.

Side note: Personally, I use a slightly different method to switch between my dozen installs. I only play or work on one installation at a time, and I always rename this install's directory to "Morrowind" before I play or work, and I rename it to something different when I switch to another install. This way the local directory, the directory specified in the registry, the working directory of the construction set, and any other directories that might be specified in shortcuts, inis of various tools, etc., are always identical. Everything always takes place in a "Morrowind" folder. This is the safest way to manage several Morrowind installs. I just have to rename two folders whenever I want to switch installations, but imho that's a price I gladly pay for not having to worry about any path issues.

That's exactly what I do. It has never done me wrong, and the small hassle is more than worth the reliability.

Sorry for replying late to this one. I had some inaccuracies in the effects of these potions too (although not as large as you had). I think it happens because I stretch the effect over one second. I plan to make an update to the mod eventually, when I do so I'll make the potions' effect immediate (zero duration). If I'm correct, then this will fix the inaccuracies.

Oh...that would make sense. I didn't even look at the duration, as I was simply just assuming it was a problem with the patch. Silly Fligg.

Here are some links to utils to help do switching in multi MW installation environments:

MWSwitcher by MentalElf
http://mentalelfz.com/mwswitcher.html

This is an exe that allows you to rename the current Morrowind directory to "Morrowind.default", and the chosen "install" directory to "Morrowind". However, it requires all copies of Morrowind to be in the same parent directory.

Multiple Morrowind Switcher by Scooby Doo
http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View...etail&id=44

This is a batch program to switch between multiple copies of MW.
Similar to MWSwitcher, except it will work with other tools such as FPS Optimizer.
It supports launching and configurable defaults that can be overrode with command line parameters.
More robust, but be aware that it directly edits the registry to change the install path. RTFM!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some people were asking about a way to indicate the code patched exe in-game. Well, I put together a replacement for the main menu graphic which can be used to indicate that the MCP has been applied.

There are 2 versions - one which just 'watermarks' the main menu splash screen by filling in the daedric 'V' with red; and one which adds 'Code Patch' below Morrowind in the graphic.

MCP Watermark

For now, you'll need to add it manually after patching morrowind, and remove it manually if you decide to uninstall MCP.


@Hrnchamd/Psyringe - this is something that maybe could be included with the patcher so that it's added when a patch is applied, and removed when all patches are uninstalled.

Can the difficulty slider be enhanced? Most of us veterans play at maximum I think, so if you could double or triple the difficulty this could be kind of a new challenge?

I just Started playing Again a week ago. Got the patch today I Like it .

It works Perfectly on the Inventory Fix(Tryed some wings that did not show right before)
It works Perfectly on Reflecting Asorb health. (Absorbs My health like it should)
It works Perfectly Npc Mercentile Bug Fix
It works Perfectly On Npc not equiping stuff i sell them (Tested on a cool Npc from mod that Equiped the stuff before Patch)

Atributes Restore having checked on to much to realy se results

Calm Humanoid I will to a lot of testing on

Thanks again Realy good work.

Hey, I have another idea for a fix, if the A.I in morrowind can be fixed for some things...

For instance, Dremora Lords will constantly attack you with firebite or whatever their fire attack is, if you have 100% refection, or for that matter, reflect it at all. This means that they will kill themselves before you have to worry about a daedric mace in your face.

I don't know if this is a bug or not, but it's really weird and annoying to see monsters kill themselves, or waste their time, (Flame Atronarchs) while you wail away on them.

I don't know enough to determine how to fix Dremoras and others, or if it's a mod issue. BigMod 2 does live up to it's name,but I've swore I've seen it even without that mod.

If anyone could tell me how unlikely it is, let me know.

The impact of the difficulty slider can be modded, there's a GMST controlling it (fDifficultyMult). Here's a mod that multiplies it by 10, but you can easily mod it yourself. Unless it doesn't work as expected - I've never used it myself, so I wouldn't know.

I can't tell how hard patching the AI code would be (Hrnchamd is the one who an answer that) - my guess is that it's quite a complex piece of code.

The changes that you want are probably easier to implement with scripting. Fliggerty is currently working on an AI overhaul, check this thread.

Nice work.

It wouldn't prevent the problem that some people have with multiple installations though, I think there are possible scenarios in which the game starts an exe from one directory, and uses assets (like the texture you modded) from another. I'm not sure yet, my tests yielded inconsistent results, but I think the safest way to give an indication that the correct exe is running is to patch a watermark into the exe which can be looked up in-game.

Nevertheless I like your change to the menu screen, and it has already found its way into my game.

Yea, I tried some tests with multi installs but couldn't reproduce the problem. Having the patch place the watermark into the exe would be the best solution. My contribution is best used on single installs.

Oddly, I cannot reproduce the problem anymore either. Contrary to what I said before, when I *now* start the game from the Morrowind Launcher, it always load the exe in the local director. I may have made a mistake in my previous analysis, or I'm making one while trying to reproduce it currently. The former is more likely, I may have confused two different error messages.

However, the fact stands that at least two people had problems that were caused by starting the wrong exe in a multiple install. So there must be *something* which causes this confusion.

I ran a few tests and found out that the FPS Optimizer, when told to launch Morrowind, will poll the registry, and start the Morrowind.exe in the installation that the registry points to. So this might be a factor.

I particularly enjoy the bigger world map
Speaking about possible future improvements, I'd really love a bigger alchemy/quickkey item scroller.

I don't know if this is something that can be solved, but I tend to find that NPCs with equipped lights have their lights flicker on/off when they walk about, and sometimes the light itself looses it's flame bit and lighting on the model, but the surrounding ground is lit up.

I made a simple mod that gives lots of NPCs various light levelled lists so they have a chance of having a suitable class based light for their night time wanderings. I'm guessing that it's down to there being too many moving lights.

Same for me. I also really like all merchants not wearing armor you sell them anymore.

While all evident problems with the multile installations were answered and solved - thanks for that - a few D ago, I have this one issue remaining:

The set-up running with Madd Leveler, restoration for drained or damaged stats remains capped at 99, so I'm assuming that the Cogs is written around standard in-game fortifications, and cannot work with the Madd specials, correct?

And would the same apply to Galsiah's?

Cheers,
J.M.

For me, the restore attributes fix works with unmodded Morrowind as well as with Galsiah's Character Development (even with attribute values of more than 100 in case of the latter). If it doesn't work with Madd leveler, then my first guess is that the Madd leveler uses a different method of uncapping stats which the MCP cannot recognize. I'm not familiar with the Madd leveler though. How does the madd leveler change the player's current stat and max stat if any value is larger than 100?

Madd applies attribute and skill bonus, whenever the skill reaches 199 or more, the base value will be set to 99, and for 100 a fortification of 1 applied, The structure is powers of 2, e.g. a level 130 = 99+16+8+4+2+1
These fortifications are all displayed in lists on screen when hovering cursor on relevant icons in menu mode.
There must be small difference in the dealings with attributes versus skills, since at Char-levels one can assign 1 pt to 3 select attributes, and when maxxed, the screen will show 99 replaced by 100, then finlising the level, the calcs will be done, and on next Char-level it will show 99 again.
Also applies reset and restart spells to recover drained or damaged stats, or to repair lists of fortificans that ran out of synch (which happens, certainly with Alchemy and Enchant, perhaps with Armourer, but haven´t advanced enough to be able to see that yet).
But the use of those requires un-equipping all artifacts with in-game fortification to circumvent accounting errors, and was hoping to get rid of that.

That's the extent of what I know, I have not opened and researched scripts or whatever is hidden from view.

Sign-up time for Galsiah's, it seems.

Thanks,
J.M.

It appears to work just fine with GCD, but I would need to test it to be sure. I'm not far enough to come across Bonelords yet, but I haven't had any problems using GCD and this patch so far. *crosses fingers*

I just went to the download page and now I have two questions. Should I get MCP or MCP Python version, and is there any reason to download one instead of the other?

MCP Python version will only work if you also have Python installed (if you use Wrye Mash then you've got it installed).

I know you need Python and I have it for the Blender nif scripts, but what I want to know is whether there's any reason to download MCP Python instead of MCP.

Just reduces the download size, I believe.

Correct. Lot smaller dl.

MCP is an executable (~5MB) which includes the necessary python run-times.
MCP Python is a 11KB py script.

No difference between the two as to patch behavior.

Get the MCP Python version if you already have Python (why bother with a 5MB dl???)

Thanks for the help.

Hi people. Love the work so far, but before I install, I was wondering, 1) If there are to be more releases of this, will they need me to go from a non-exeoptimizer patched game again? Because I don't fancy re-installing over and over again, everytime a new mod is released. 2) If my fears prove to be true, are there likely to be several updates in a short space of time, before this slows down, or is that it for a while? Thanks, M

When you install the MCP for the first time, it automatically makes a backup of your Morrowind.exe. Everytime you apply MCP patches, this backup will be used as a base to apply any patches to, no matter whether or not the MCP has been updated in the meantime. No reinstall is necessary. You can also continue any game in progress, there is no need to start a new one.

You *will* need to re-run exe-optimizer every time you enabled or disabled an MCP component, but's just three mouse clicks and some minutes of waiting, so I wouldn't be too concerned about it.


Only Hrnchamd can tell, but currently the focus is on ironing out bugs (since he doesn't have the time to include new features at the moment). Most bugs seem to have been fixed by now, so the release turnaround has already slowed down.

It would be nice if FPU2SSE and Morrowind 1.8 SSE Patch were integrated into this before its death.

Of course,better yet, if it wouldn't die yet...

Personally, I like the idea.

Another one to consider would be removing the min/max for CE enchants. Locking the two sliders together might be possible.

[Edit:] Additional thoughts.

With respect to cure paralysis, it can be removed from the ingredient effect lists, the pre-existing spell lists (while still allowing a cure on other), and denied for use in enchantments as a traditional mod. No need for code fixes.

And some other things that might be considered.

One is with the drain intelligence effect. If intelligence is drained to zero it restores all magicka when it wears out. With restore magicka in the magic effects list but not in the game world itself, it's clearly a bug.

The formula for filled soul gems values gives ridiculous prices. Reducing the value of empty soul gems or the souls themselves produces a sub-optimal result. Could the formula be played with? Some people (a lot?) would presumably not like this.

Is the MCP program file missing from the MCP Python version download?

sieboldii

MCP Python is just the py script without the compiled Python run-times. If you have Python installed (you do if you're using Wrye Mash), you won't need the MCP exe.

Just tested it with patched and unpatched versions, the supplied potion worked normally both times. Which race/birthsign did you use, and does it still happen?


The restore attributes spell can only 'see' fortify attribute spells that occur before it, spells are processed in order. Your psuedo-racial spell would of course not restore attributes fully in that situation. If I scan the whole list of active spells, then CE restore could potentially restore too much, because of a fortify spell expiring when it's processed. The fortify attribute fix only covers the main attributes, not health, magicka or fatigue, they have derived maximum values.


It's rather too hard to debug things like this without the source code, it's part of the NetImmerse engine and it's not very readable in assembler.


I'll try and make the patch MADD compatible, but it may be refreshing the fortify spells each frame which makes it difficult to work with.


It's pretty easy to update, or you could stick with 1.2 for now. I'm not releasing much beyond bug fixes every month for now.


I agree that soul gems are over-valued; I know how to change it. People here need to discuss some balanced prices, I can't dictate them. Please, discuss and find some good numbers, and a good formula.



MCP Python requires Python and wxWidgets (same library as Wrye Mash).

When I go into my morrowind directory, I do not find a runnable program. Selecting the py script just opens a run window and then goes away.

siebolsii

Nice to see you post again, Hrachand, did you see my post a page ago about the AI of Dremora Lords killing themselves with fire when you have 100% reflect? Or, you know, reflect enough to be noticeable.

I don't know how easy it is to fix, or whether or not I'd have to go with a lot of MWE and MWSE mods to fix it, but I'd like your opinion...

Basically, if a Dremora lord attacks you with it's fire attack, and you reflect it back, they will continue to attack you with firebite, (?) until they die, or you fell sorry for them and stab them.

Flame, Frost and Shock Atronarchs don't do this as often, for obvious reasons.
It affects Golden Saints a little bit, and Daedroths are very noticeable.

Sieboldii,

Maybe you have a version conflict? Wyre uses either 2.4 or 2.5, but maybe the python that the code patch uses requires a version you don't have, like 2.5 instead of 2.4, or 2.4 instead of 2.5. That's the only thing I can think of.


Rocket, I don't quite understand this one. You want to remove Enchanting? Or do you want to force people to use uniform numbers like 15, instead of 12 to 19?
Also,
Are you saying it gives you a free restore magicka effect? I never noticed that in the many times I've drank enough Sujamma, et. al, to drop my intelligence to 0? Maybe there's a conflict on your mod setup?

Or are you saying that when your intelligence goes back up, it acts like a full restore magicka effect?
That's intended, as it recalculates the amount of Intelligence your char has. Fixing that would have a high chance of either not working, or destroying Save game capabilities.

Think of it like this, and I'll try to get my point across, because sometimes I tend to confuse people..or annoy them
If you drop your intelligence to zero, you end up with 0/0 magicka. If you wait for the intelligence to clear up, the game immediately recalculates the magicka to whatever your intelliegence now is. Depending on whether you have max magicka multipliers or not.
It's a classic case of an intended feature uses as an exploit.
Of course, there's a chance I'm horribly wrong.

Edit: Duh, Full /= fun.

I am running 2.4. I have not seen a Python version requirement mentioned.

sieboldii

Can you make it independend from the base prices of empty soulgems? At the moment it can be balanced via GMST, but the base price of empty soulgems has to be changed according to this.

Regarding balancing, PTE changes soulgem prices to be 1/5th and I have played with 1/10th before. In both cases the prices of empty gems had to be reduced by the same factor, so an empty petty soulgem is worth either 1 (for 1/10th) or 2 (for 1/5th). Good question, I do not know what may be better: Greater Soulgem (Golden Saint) = 8,000 or 16,000? Or a different value...

I just wanted to say that updating my companion mod hasn't caused any crashes even though I've been adding new content with new references. I guess I did something with my previous saves that caused an issue. Anyways, good work as always, Hrn. Are you planning on uploading this somewhere else besides TESNexus?

PirateLord's Trade Enhancement is okay, but I don't think we need to change the prices that dramatically. Besides, like I said earlier on a different item all together, it's a classic case of a feature, (soul gems) being exploited.

I'd rather he adjucted the prices of enchantments a little more logical and numerically constant price. Such as a amulet with a golden saint soul equals about 1000 dollars. Instead of it's current 40K plus.

Soul gems aren't unbalanced, it's just that they're very exploitable. You can nerf them, but you should also leave it up to the end user whether or not to exploit them. Preventing Exploits is a really time consuming process.
I get where you're coming from, believe me. I don't like having crates of money unless I'm trying to enchant a full set of armor.

Also, PTE isn't the best thing since sliced bread.

I agree as well. So let's see whether we can find a formula which would be seen as an improvement by most people. For reference, this list of trapped soul values might be useful.

The current formula for the value of trapped soul gems is:
(Trapped Soul Value) = (Gem Value) * (Soul Size)

This formula has (imho) two weaknesses:

W1: The trapped soul value rises very quickly and very high. As soon as the player can kill bonewalkers (3000 gold per soul) or ancestor ghosts (4000 gold), a single trip to a random tomb with a couple of common soul gems in his backpack can generate enormous amounts of money very quickly.

W2: The value might also start too high. Petty soulgems have a base value of 10 gold. Filled with a rat soul, their value is 100 gold. Given that rats become very easy to kill after a while, the profit that can be made by filling petty soul gems with the souls of weak creatures and selling them might be disproportional. I'm not certain about that myself though since I'm not sure how much money will be lost during buying/selling for an average character.


Here are two formulas that might perform better in-game:


F1: (Trapped Soul Value) = (Soul Size) * 10

This formula would leave the values of the weaker creatures' souls unchanged (rat souls would still be worth 100 gold), but drastically reduce the values of stronger creatures. Bonewalkers would drop from 3000 to 750 gold. Golden Saints would drop from 80,000 to 4,000 gold. Galbedir's grand soul gem in the Balmora mages guild (which many people like to steal) would now be worth 3,000 instead of 60,000. This would still make it a worthy target for a thief (as it should be), but it wouldn't be as overpriced as it currently is.

This formula also takes the gem's base value out of the equation. I think this is reasonable to do since in terms of usage, (please correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not 100% certain on this) a rat soul in a petty soul gem has the same enchantment power than a rat in a grand soul gem. This means: As soon as a soul gem is filled, the usefulness of the gem is solely determined by the size of the trapped soul, and nothing else. Hence, there is no reason why the price of the raw material (empty soul gem) should still influence the price of the product (filled soul gem).


F2: (Trapped Soul Value) = (Soul Size) * 9 + (Gem Value)

This formula would bring the empty gem value back into the equation, but only as an additive factor. This way, it's not possible to reduce the value of a soul gem by filling it with a soul - which would be possible with F! and, although it's plausible (raw materials with high potential use *can* be worth more than products which utilitze only a small fraction of this potential), some people might find it a bit off. The multiplier for soul size is reduced a bit for compensation. This would leave rat souls unchanged at 100 gold, bonewalkers at 715 gold, and golden saints at 3800 gold.

The soul size multiplier could be further reduced. 715 gold is still pretty much for a bonewalker soul, considering that a common soul gem is only worth 40 gold and that bonewalkers, while annoying, become quite easy to kill once you know how to handle them. Another detail which might be worth some thought is that ancestor ghosts (which can be summoned and trapped as much as you have soul gems for them) would yield 940 gold, that's pretty much for an investment of 40 gold even if you take the merchantÄs profit margins into account.


F3: (Trapped Soul Value) = (Soul Size) * (Soul Size) / 50 + (Gem Value)

This formula would reduce the value of the *small* souls as well, which might be a good idea depending on whether statement W2 from above turns out to be true. With this formula, rats would be at 12 gold, bonewalkers at 152 gold, and golden saints at 3,400 gold. Such a formula would discourage players from "soul grinding" with weak creatures, and encourage them to capture souls of big creatures instead.

Personally, I think that with this formula, the value difference between mid-level and high-level monsters (like bonewalkers vs golden saints) becomes too large though.


F4: (Trapped Soul Value) = (Soul Size) * 4 + (Gem Value)

That's the same formula as F2, with a further reduced soul size multiplier. With this formula, rat souls would end up at 50 gold, bonewalkers at 340 gold, and golden saints at 1,800 gold. Summoned ancestor ghosts would be at 440 gold, Galbedir's Winged Twilight soulgem at 1,400 gold.

Reducing trapped soul values this much would, of course, make filled soul gems easier available for player. For example, a player could now actually buy Galbedir's soul gem. I don't think that's a bad idea. High-level souls will be much cheaper with this formula, but in order to make use them, a player must either pay for enchanting services (which are very expensive) or be an enchanter himself.


Hmmm. Personally I'm leaning to F4. However, I may have missed something, and also I didn't take the rest of the economy into account yet. Comments, Suggestions?

I don't think that trapped soul values are simply a matter of "don't exploit it if you don't want to". Of course you can choose to refrain from capturing souls and selling them (which is what I currently do in my game), in order to not exploit their high value. However, this effectively takes soul trapping (which is an interesting feature) out of the game. You'd then only use it either when a quest demands it, or when you want a custom enchantment on an item, which doesn't happen that often. Personally, I'd like to fix the trapped soul value in a way that soul trapping becomes a viable part of the economy - one option out of many to earn money. Currently, the option is either to exploit it or to ignore it, not a good situation imho.

Hmm, okay, maybe I just fail at explaining things...i'll try again, and then you can all beat me up about the head....

Okay, yes, perhaps it's unbalanced at how much the value of the souls are. But no one in their right mind, even if they love exploits, are going to gain anything by selling soul gems to merchants... Seriously, what's the max a merchant has, 10k? Yeah, am I missing out on something here? 10k /= 80k, besides Why would someone exploit it, if it will take them 8 times 24 hours in game to reset the merchant inventory to sell it for the full price? Am I missing something here?

I mean, it's like selling a daedric longsword to a merchant because you have no cash, and you want to buy their healing scrolls, alchemy/potions, and misc...you still have a net loss.

Really, I just don't understand the big deal here. It's a end user exploit, and fixing it on your end seems like a waste of time. IMHO, it's only broken becasue people think there is nothing to do with soulgems besides selling them...and using them for enchanting...

If i am missing something major, let me know...

Edit:Also, what's wrong with Soultrapping for fun,

Edited again for awkward writing...

Psyringe : I'm OK with you, F4 seems far better than vanilla !
But personally I prefer F3 !
Linear or exponential : its always the question !

Would it be possible to substitute some global variable or GMST for the constant in your formula(s) so that an economy adjuster could easily tweak it? Maybe the ideal formula would give results close to the current values, but by adjusting some multiplier the range of values could be compressed? This way, you could apply the change, and then adjust it to your liking easily.

Also, on a different tangent, while I realize that this adjustment would be nice, and I'm sure it's "low hanging fruit", it's still a feature, while there seem to be some remaining real engine bugs that might also be worthwhile for Hrnchamd to take a look at. Would it be possible to set up a bug triage list? Maybe on some wiki somewhere? I know that I and some others have proposed some other fixes, and it might be nice to put them in one place so people can easily make decisions on what seems to be most important, and so we don't lose track of them.

On the first point, yes, uniform numbers only. There's no point to the lower number since people just re-equip until they get close to the higher one.

On the second point, drain intelligence 100 points on self for 1 second is well known as the claytons instant restore magicka spell.

Just a suggestion or two.

Value of a filled soul gem == (value of the soul)(fSoulGemMult)(fSoulGemMult)

fSoulGemMult defaults to 3.

Golden saints reduce to 3600.
Hunger reduces to 2250.
Scamp reduces to 900.
Rat reduces to 90.

Value of a filled soul gem == (value of the soul)(square root of the value of the soul)

Golden saints reduce to 8000.
Hunger reduces to near 4000.
Scamp reduces to 1000.
Rat reduces to 32.

I know that.
.

Gah, it's not a bug, it's how the game calculates magicka. 0/0 at 0 intelligence makes sense. When it wears out, you get your magicka immediately recalculated, which sets it at 100/100, or 500/500 with the mantle of Woe. I think.

So, where's the issue here? You want to change the code? It's not as broken as the soulgem thing. And for me to say that, it's saying something...

It may be a dumb David moment, but I'm still not getting it.

Also, removing the ability to form 13 to 19 or so, would make it impossible to actually enchant some items... It's been my experience that way. 12 to 12 is more costly than 10 to 15.
That really would make items with less than stellar enchantment capabilities even more useless.

I thought about that too, because no matter how we balance the trapped soul values, some economy rebalance mod might want to change them. I was hesitant to mention it though since we're effectively in feature freeze and I didn't want to turn a quick formula fix into something complicated. But maybe I was too hesitant, who knows. Regarding the feasibility of your suggestion: Hrnchamd knows where the GMSTs are stored in memory, and there are GMSTs which seem to be unused, so it might be possible. Our formula for trapped soul values would need to work well with the unchanged base value of this GMST, since making a fix dependent on an additional esp with a GMST change would be inefficient and risky with regard to user errors, but that can probably be done. It's Hrnchamd's call though.


It's certainly a good idea to make a list of requested fixes and tweaks, perhaps prioritized as you suggested earlier. When Hrnchamd opens the MCP for new features again, he can then pick the things from this list if he wants to. The one thing that kept me from compiling such a list already is that AFAIK it's still uncertain whether (or when) the MCP will be opened for new features. Hrnchamd, what do you think? Is the chance that you'll open the MCP for new features high enough for a compilation of community ideas and requests to make sense? If yes, I'll make a list.

Personally I think changing the formula on filled soul gems so they would be cheaper would make the prices for enchanting items at an Enchanter seem even more exorbitant than they already are. As it is now I sort of envision that we are in a completely different ballpark of values when it comes to filled soul gems and enchanting - but "normally" priced filled soul gems would make the enchanting cost sort of bizarre IMO.

EDIT: Note that I'm talking about high-end souls/enchantments.

I think you missed my point, which was that it would be an improvement if the player had the option to use soultrapping to make money in a balanced way. Currently the only options are to either exploit or to ignore the feature (okay, and to do it just for its own sake, as you suggested).

(I also thinks that your analysis above neglects the possibility of buying stuff that the merchant has on offer (or re-buying stuff that you sold him before) to maximize profits, but that's actually besides my point, since a player who goes to such length to maximize profits is probably not that much interested in a balanced economy anyway.)



The issue is that this "feature" gives you unlimited magicka, thereby effectively canceling the magicka regeneration system of the game, and especially nullifying the one weakness of the Atronach birthsign. The game usually takes great care to make it difficult and risky to regenerate magicka, and yet there's this one feature which allows you to replenish your magicka whenever you like. The problem is that the game, when you have 0/0 magicka, sees this as having "100%" magicka, and when your max magicka rises to 100 afterwards, it will set your current magicka to 100 too because the game keeps the 100% ratio. So you can cast spells worth about 100 magicka, then cast a spell that brings your intelligence down to 0 for a short moment, and when it wears off you'll have full magicka again and can repeat the process. This way you're creating an unlimited amount of magicka out of nothing. It's certainly debatable whether it needs fixing (since it's an exploit that the player can choose not to make use of), but it's imho not debatable that it's a bug.

Hey, I recently downloaded this and patched Morrowind... and it crashed to desktop a lot more often then usual. Did I do something wrong? It only crashed in exteriors... interiors ran fine, but the exteriors had really choppy FPS and soon it crashed after it was running so slow...

I also did the quicksaving thing, which usually results in no ctds.

Please check the bottom of the first post in this thread and PM the required data to Hrnchamd.

I haven't seen any reports about the MCP causing more crashes (if anything it seems to reduce their likelihood for some people), but there's always a chance of as of yet undiscovered bugs.

One suggestion: Did you use Exe-Optimizer before? This utility is said to prevent crashes. So, if you had used it on your previous exe, but haven't used it on the code-patched exe. then this might be a reason for an increased number of crashes.

OKay, I figured it out now, you're right, Psyringe, as usual. Curses, someday I will be right! <Scooby-doo villain voice>

I just never could figure all these simple little things out. Bug/feature/exploit, etc...

So, to get this straight, because the game likes to be balanced, at 100% magicka, even with 0/0, that's a bug? I think I'm missing something here, and either way, it seems like it would A. Corrupt saves, or B. not work because of how it would be changed...I know enough about code editing to know that some things are very complex, even if they don't look like it...

Also, Who Cares? I don't have any idea what's wrong with your computer. What type of computer do you have?

Selecting the py script from the morrowind dir opens a cmd prompt and starts up python.exe so that the script can do its thing. Make sure you also place mwpatch folder in the morrowind dir (i.e. morrowind/mwpatch) - without this you will get the behavior you describe.

BTW: I'm using Python v2.5.1 without any problems, and I also have Wrye Mash v0.78 installed and working. Hrnchamd mentioned that wxWidgets is also required (same library as Wrye Mash).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Regarding soul gem balancing...
I'd prefer method 4, and method 3 would be OK too.
I would welcome a financially reasonable option to purchase some of Galbadir's soul gems without having to resort to pinching 'em.

What about tying the trapped soul value to the difficulty setting? Easier settings allow for greater value; Harder settings reduce the value.
That way someone can just adjust the setting in the in-game options menu - no need to mess with a GMST setting.

Nah, it's a bug because the game is restoring a player's magicka when it's not supposed to. I concede that the borders between bugs and exploits are somewhat fluid though, so if you want to call it an exploit instead of a bug, that's fine with me. My point was to state that it clearly doesn't work as it's supposed to; I probably could've worded that better.

Btw, the UESP has a description of this bug which suggests a different underlying mechanism than the one I described; the UESP is probably correct since I never used used this exploit, so I only have second-hand knowledge in this case.

If it can be avoided, I strongly recommend avoiding "overloading" an option by having it serve more than its original purpose. This will invariably lead to someone disagreeing with how it works. I think it's always best to introduce some new option to control the new feature, this way the user is always fully in control and can customize it completely to how they like it.

I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that implementing new features ("feeping creaturism") is problematic because it's hard to please everybody. I do think that if new features are implemented, it's best if they don't change the default behavior, but instead, allow further customization beyond what is possible due to current engine limitations. So I'd still be in favor of hijacking an old unused GMST or a new global variable, if that's possible. That way, the Code Patch would allow people to implement what they feel is more reasonable economic adjustments, but it doesn't force any particular economic feature by itself.

Well, the original purpose of the difficulty slider is to scale the game to make it easier or harder for the player. The ease at which gold can be acquired and items purchased in the game world affects game play. Tying the economy to the difficulty setting is appropriate, there's no need to implement a new feature (the slider is already there), and since the MCP is modular one only needs to avoid installing that particular patch if the fix is not desired.

[edit] I'm not saying that a GMST shouldn't also be considered as I agree that would allow eco modders additional flexibilty outside of the patch.

I don't even know what the EXE-optimiser is. Is it good? if I download that utility after I installed your patch, would it help my problem? I just PM-ed you and I haven't fixed the problem yet.... I really, really want to.

@Tetchy: While the settings "harder combat" and "harder economy" are definitely related, there's no guarantee that people who want the one will actually want the other too. From my own personal (biased) experience, I'd say that it's much more likely that users want to separate the two settings. By linking the two to the same variable, you'd provide an easy and efficient way of setting this variable - for the people who want exactly the same correspondence between combat difficulty and "economy difficulty" that you implemented. However, all people who want only a harder economy, or only harder combat, or (for example) much harder combat but only a slightly harder economy, would be left behind.

@WhoCares: I answered you via PM.

I have everything as you and the readme state, but the command window opens and closes without any options appearing. I guess I will have to wait until MCP is uploaded elsewhere to download the full beast.

sieboldii

Hmm... try opening a command prompt, then change to your morrowind dir and run mcp.py from there.

Why not try and create a shortcut a la Mash? I believe it would be:

Target:
Start in:
But you'd have to adjust this for where you've installed Python and Morrowind.

Python and Morrowind are standard installs.

sieboldii

So did you try creating a shortcut work? The Patch download doesn't include one so I thought explicitly starting python.exe and passing it the mcp.py file would work for you...

Hi Toccatta, nice to see you posting here.


Yes, but only if your Enchant skill is high enough to reliably enchant items, otherwise you'll lose lots of soul gems. Of course you could pay an enchanter to reliably enchant your item but that would probably cost more than selling the enchanted item nets you (which is okay imho). So this option exists, but only for enchanters (unless I got the numbers wrong, I can't exclude this possibility since I have little experience with the enchanted item value fix). Others still face the somewhat odd situation that they have a raw material which enchanters need, but can't sell it to them in a balanced way.

However, even if this option were viable for more players, then this doesn't mean that fixing the overpriced trapped soul values is a bad idea. Also, keep in mind that all fixes are modular, i.e. if the patch includes a fix for the trapped soul values, and someones deems it unnecessary or even a bad idea, then he can simply deactivate this module and still use the others, no harm done. Since Hrnchamd has already expressed an interest in providing such a fix, and there are people who would welcome it, imho the question should not be "Do I need that?", but rather "What's the best formula that the people who *do* want this fix can agree on?"


The current status is this: There's a strong focus on fixing any remaining bugs that the patch may have. Hrnchamd has said that he may have time to implement more features later in the year, but we don't know for sure whether this will be the case. We can of course hope. I think we'll eventually compile a list of suggestions, yours included.

I want to second Toccatta's request and add this information in case it's helpful at all if Hrnchamd does eventually try to patch it into the game:

Identical "fortify skill" spell effects added by the Tribunal expansion *can* be added over and over to a single spell made in the game. These spell effects don't suffer from the same "repeat check" as the others, so it would seem reasonable to suspect that the check may be on an effect-basis, and not a universal check performed by the spellmaker. Then again, I don't really know anything about these things so I could be completely wrong. :^)

Speaking about more same effects in one spell reminds me of the so called "target effect bug"; some call it soultrap bug. If you use a target effect together with an on-self effect, e.g. Absorb Health on target and Invisibility on self in the same spell, and the target effect does not hit something, then you get the on-self component of the spell permanently without seeing the effect icon.

Okay...so I wasn't the smartest person for saying all that, but still, PirateLord, I don't know what you're saying here. I'm blank?

I didn't mean to insult you greviously.
I just don't think the economy in Morrowind needs nerfing on a large scale, and you don't call it a balance mod for nothing. Glass, Daedric, Ebony all either dropped in price, or made harder to find...etc. The latter should always be done over the former... Sorry PirateLord

As to the Soultrap glitch, I'd be in favor of fixing it. I never reliably used it. So, if you fixed it, I won't be the one trying to burn down your castle with a torch.

David, restrain yourself from criticizing other people's mods in this thread. Please respect other people's playstyle and vision of the game. Smileys don't cover up the negativity of your criticisms. There are much better ways of wording your thoughts, nuance is critical for text-based discussions. Talk to me if you don't see what's bad about that last post.

As for me, I don't understand why the soultrap glitch needs "fixing" when all you have to do is simply not use it.

Remember what Hrnchamd said about abusing the stacking of potions: "patch your brain so you no longer want to abuse potions."

This seems like eminently sensible advice to me.

I don't want to seem like a curmudgeon, but I do think it's in our best interests to take a very conservative approach with the MCP, and really only attack the real engine bugs that affect the most people, things that can't be fixed by any plugin or worked around in some other way.

Make one anyway. Ultimately, it's up to the patch creator/maintainer to decide what's they can do/have time to do/agree with. But nobody is going to get castrated for making suggestions/making bugs more evident/discussing possible options.

I can see modifying the game to allow game balance issues to be edited or modded, but not to adapt the game to fit one person's vision of how it should be played. While I really like the idea of PTE, and respect the skill and effort that went into making it all work properly, the actual implementation doesn't quite match what I envision in several respects, so I'd be disappointed to see it hardcoded into a revamp of the engine. Better to have something like that as an .esp that can easily be added, adjusted, or ignored.

The Soultrap Glitch is not a "balance issue", but an actual bug that should be stamped out with malice and forethought, in my opinion, if it can be done without diverting too much time and attention to other more pressing problems.

While I agree it is a bug, I'm curious as to why people think it should be removed? I thought that it doesn't affect normal gameplay at all, it's just an exploit that the player can choose to abuse or to ignore? Or am I missing something and it actually does affect normal gameplay?

I think the MCP should stick to actual game bugs that can't either be fixed via a mod, like the update to the unofficial Morrowind patch or exploits that can be ignored, like the soul trap exploit. From what I've seen, Hrn has fixed most of the glaring engine bugs, like having to wear a piece of armor for the unarmored skill to be calculated properly, so I don't really know what else needs fixing.

I agree that there's no reason to fix the soul trap glitch. That is one bug that cannot affect you unless you want it to affect you - to experience this bug, you have to deliberately do something you would never do in normal gameplay. Therefore nothing is lost in normal gameplay by this bug's existence. Honestly, I bet I've played this game for a good 2,000 hours and I've *never*, not one time, experienced the soul trap glitch - I never bothered to read how it's done or try to figure it out in-game, and the consequence is that it has never appeared in my game. Go figure.

I have another request to make. This one is so obvious that it's probably been requested and discussed before, but I missed it if it was. Is it possible to patch the game to allow more than 255 data files to be enabled at once?

I don't think it was, but that may be due to how the game handles data files - it can handle up to 256 (Morrowind.esm is #0), so I don't know if that can be changed. Hrn or Psyringe can probably give a better explanation, but I think it has to do with stacks. It's been so long since I've done any programming, I can't be 100% sure.

Actually I thought your current loaded savegame was #0.

That seems likely to me, Symon69. At least I don't think Jac's explanation can be correct as the Morrowind.ini file lists data files numbered 0 through 254 when it is completely full (this numbered list includes Morrowind.esm, but not your save file).

Unfortunately not. Okay, theoretically one could patch Morrowind into anything programmable, but there are several reasons why increasing the max number of active plugin files is not a realistic feature for the MCP:

1. It would break savegame compatibility. In the savegame data, each reference is identified by its objectindex and modindex. Modindex is a byte-variable which stores the load oder position of the mod from which this reference originated. Increasing its range beyond 256 would require to change the data structure. Neither original Morrowind nor any of our tools (Mash, Enchanted Editor, etc.) would be able to process such files.

2. I *think* it would be very hard to patch in the executable. All the variables which are being used as modindices would need to be checked whether they are only byte variables, and expanded to at least word variables, which (as far as I know) is a very difficult process in itself. Hrnchamd can probbaly explain this one better than I can, and correct me if I'm wrong.

3. Part of the savegame corruption fix would have to be rewritten if we allowed for more than 255 active mods. The save corruption fix is based on Hrnchamd's (rather brilliant imho) rewrite of the way Morrowind assigns index numbers to all references. The objectindex of a reference is a 4-byte variable (in memory), and the fix uses the highest byte to encode the modindex of this reference, so that every reference will have a unique objectindex. "Highest byte" means that there's only room to account for 255 sources in that space. Even if we expanded that to two bytes (65536), then only two of the original 4 bytes would be left to store the actual objectindex. That's not sufficient since there are files with 300,000 references or more (like Morrowind.esm).

So, in short, I don't think we can realistically expand the max number of active plugins with the MCP. It's not that big a deal though (although it would certainly be a nice feature) since we can always merge plugins.

Sorry, about the whole thing earlier, Hranchand...

Alright, if you all think the soul trap bug doesn't need to be fixed, why should the exploit of full restoration of magicka be fixed? Now I'm really confused. I still don't get this issue. Now, we have people wanting to not fix the soul trap glitch, and yet, some people are calling the restoration thing a bug.

I mean, with the soul trap glitch, you can end up with near invincibility. Fortify luck to about 1500 and nothing will reliably hit you.
That's a bigger game breaker than really fast spell casting, which could also be done by alchemy...

Could someone break this down for me? I'm not the smartest person ever, so I think I need a step by step guide here. If instant magicka needs to be fixed, and yet the soul trap bug doesn't, I think I'm missing something here, because the soul trap bug is a bug. I mean, I really don't think that was Bethesda's design.

So sue me, I'm still really confused over the whole thing...and I don't want any more people mad at me...

Also, Hranchand, did you see the A.I issue I had earlier, I'd like to know your opinion...

I do think that the soultrap bug described by DWS does indeed warrant fixing.
It's not only an exploit; it can ruin one's savegame permanently.

Back when MW was new, someone posted a savegame on another forum where he was permanently invisible. He couldn't talk to anyone, he could not buy or sell things, fighting was boring (after all, enemies did not notice him), etc. etc.

I never figured out what went wrong in that savegame; it may well have been exactly that bug. After all, "Fire Damage on Target, Invisibility on Self" sounds, come to think of it, like a quite intelligent combination.

I'll try.

Note that the question "Is this a bug?" and "Should the MCP fix this?" are separate. It is entirely possible that people see something as a bug, but don't see a necessity to fix it.

Both the restore magicka bug and the soul trap glitch are good examples for this. As far as I can see, there's a consensus that these *are* bugs, but that there's no necessity to fix them since they usually only affect players who want to be affected by them, i.e. who want to exploit these bugs. (Note: Varana just raised a valid argument that the soul trap glitch actually does affect players who do not want to be affected by it, so the situation may not be as easy as I painted it here. )

However, although people may see no *necessity* to fix a bug, they may still suggest it (and be glad if it gets fixed).

So, there are actually three questions being discussed:

1. Is it a bug?
2. Does it *need* to be fixed?
3. Would I like a fix?

From your posts, I think that you may have mixed up these questions, and perhaps misinterpreted a statement "This is a bug!" as "This needs fixing", whereas it was actually meant as "This is a bug, whether or not it needs fixing is a whole different thing".

edit: Nevermind.

Hmm, I've actually used a variation of that combo spell just today, and I did not turn permanently invisible.

While I agree, that it would be good to fix the bug, if indeed it can ruin someone's game by inadvertently doing something like making them permanently invisible, I think it would be good if we could reproduce that bug with a test case.

I'll take a look into it some more.

Yep, definitely. A test case may also help to understand the problem better. There's a UESP page about this bug which may help building one.

Well, it's my mistake.

I just created a spell:
First effect: Absorb Health 10pts / 3sec / Target
Second effect: Invisibility 8sec on Self

Cast it at the wall, and I turned permanently invisible.
So, yeah, I'd support fixing that.

I'm sure that this has been answered already in previous threads (or this one for that matter) but... Is this compatable with the Unnofficial Patch for Morrowind? Because it does not seem to address all of the dialogue issues that the unofficial patch deals with but I believe that the unofficial patch has the month fix in it as well.

It should be compatible with the UMP because the MCP and the UMP do different things. The UMP addresses lots of bugs which can be fixed in a plugin, while the MCP specifically addresses problems that can not be solved with a plugin. So they should complement each other nicely.

There's a potential overlap with functions like the month fix - I think the month fix was removed from the UMP since ithe scripting approach was causing its own problems, so there shouldn't be a compatibility problem with the MCP. I'll check this.

Just to toss my two cents into the fray: The "soultrap glitch" most certainly IS a bug, but the restore magicka bug is not.

Contrary to popular opinion, the "soultrap glitch" isn't just something that people read about on the internet and decide to exploit for their own purposes. Certainly at the very least the FIRST person to encounter this problem didn't read about it elsewhere. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any obvious reason why a person might want an "on self" and "on target" effect in the same spell, but that's really more a limit of my imagination (and maybe yours as well) than proof that nobody could possibly want such a spell except as an exploit. The fact that such a spell SHOULD work within the rules of the game's magic system, but apparently does not, definitely puts it into the realm of a bug. The fact that it could cause extreme damage (as in making parts of the game unplayable) by people that fall into it accidentally... and believe me, there ARE people that accidentally get afflicted by this bug, makes it something that at least deserves consideration as a bug fix.

On the other hand, the restore magicka "bug" isn't a bug at all. It appears to be an exception case to avoid a math error. When you modify a person's intelligence by whatever means, you don't just change how much magicka they CAN have, you also proportionately change how much magicka they DO have. Calculating the max magicka is as simple as multiplying the target intelligence by the total magicka multiplier. Calculating the current magicka proportionately, on the other hand, requires dividing the current magicka by the current intelligence and then multiplying the result by the target intelligence to get the the new current magicka. Obviously, if your intelligence is zero, that would result in a division by zero error. It's quite possible within the rules of the game to have the player (or NPC or creature) get their intelligence temporarily cursed to zero by a spell, so obviously there MUST be a way to correct for it without creating a division by zero error. The obvious solution is to write a bit of code that handles the situation differently only when the starting INT is zero... and that intentionally created solution is what people exploit. It isn't a bug. It's there for a very good reason, and to try to remove it would potentially break the game. Unlike the "soultrap glitch", this issue is something which might be unbalancing, but isn't game breaking. I'm sure there are people that feel it should be eliminated because the existence of an exploitable game condition offends their sensibilities, but it CAN'T break someone's game, and the easiest "solution" is to simply not exploit it.

I realize that the patches are written in a modular fashion (thank you very very much for that, Hrnchamd!!) so nobody is required to accept a patch that they don't want. But I also realize that Hrnchamd doesn't have unlimited time, staff, or money, so requesting patches that are essentially for game balance and address issues which can easily be ignored without harm detract from the amount of time available to look at problems that can neither be easily ignored nor addressed with the construction set. It's not my place to tell others what they can or cannot request, but I feel that it would better serve the Morrowind community if people didn't request patches whose only purpose is to modify the game balance to their preference... if only to ensure that issues which cannot be fixed except through modifying the actual game code don't fall by the wayside due to time constraints.

I used to do this in Oblivion a lot actually, and it actually can give the player almost supreme power.

It's basically a combo spell, with first effect being some offensive spell, like fire damage on touch or target, and the second spell being a short term invisibility on self. You can stand right next to an enemy and scorch them again and again, and they never take a swing at you.

It really could be seen as another type of exploit because it's so devastating.

Another useful combo, not quite as "exploity" is a first effect offensive spell, and a second effect restore health on self. It's a nice combo for a mage to facilitate melee fighting, which may otherwise be difficult due to low health.

Exactly. The first time I used it, I did not want to exploit a bug. I just thought about a hit and run tactic for an almost invincible enemy (from Suran Underground). It took some time until I noticed what has happened: All NPCs ignored me, because only technically I was considered to be invisible. Actually, I was able to see my character in 3rd person and there was no invisibility effect icon - very confusing. Then I searched for a fix, and I found that it happens with every on-target effect that misses its target.

Great, thank you. This looks like a wonderful fix for Morrowind to make those little things better!

Keep up the good work!

Thank you, Psyringe for getting me to figure it out. Thank you, that's all I needed.

Tocatta, I agree with you. When I learned about the soul trap bug, I wondered what it was, and then, instead of picking invisiblity, I picked fortify speed. Needless to say, it was fun for a moment.

Also, you answered about the magicka issue being a stop for a divide by zero, and yes, that makes perfect sense. A dvision by zero stops any program in it's tracks, so obviously, Besthesda would rather have a weird exploit, then the game crashing every time someone's intelligence hit zero.

Your response was also eight times better than mine could have ever been!
And you echoed my sentiments perfectly. In a way that was much better than anything I could have ever come up with!
I kinda wondered if fixing that magicka issue would cause something to break, and it definitely seems like something that would.
Divide by Zero is not fun. It blows up planets.

Then why do the UESP state that your INT must actually go *below* zero to trigger the restoration? If it were a special case for INT == 0, shouldn't it then be triggered when INT == 0 and not when INT < 0? Also, why does this special case needs to set the ratio to 1 instead of 0, or (say) 0.001 if 0 leads to problems? I don't actually see a good reason to prevent a ratio of 0 since 0 is a value for the ratio that can legitimately be reached by simply using up all your magicka, and the game has no problems with that.

I'm not arguing that this is in dire need of fixing, but I'm not sure whether your analysis is in concordance with the facts as I know them.


The priority is definitely on fixing bugs. That doesn't mean that tweaks are impossible if Hrnchamd can slip them in and thinks it would be good to have them (probably based on community feedback). Ultimately, he's the only one who can really determine how much time an implementation of a request would take, because only he can look at the code. If there's a suggestion for a tweak that's popular, and easy to do for Hrnchamd, then I don't see why people should refrain from making it. Making suggestions doesn't hurt, imho. People need, of course, be aware that only a few suggestions can be implemented and that the focus is on fixing bugs.

What we can do is to make a list of suggestions and perhaps assess their severity and perhaps popularity, so that Hrnchamd can (if he wants to) pick those suggestions from the list that are most severe and popular, provided the time needed to implement them is appropriate. I think that's the solution we're already gravitating to (John Moonsugar has suggested it a while ago already), and I think it would prevent the scenario which you described above.

Simply put, the values of player attributes are stored as floating point values and displayed as integers. What appears as 0 on the stat chart might be anything from ACTUALLY zero to 0.499999 internally. In fact, if you open the console and type "player->getintelligence" you can see what the floating point value is. Normally, it WILL be an integer value, since the save file doesn't seem to keep these numbers in floating point. However, after a drain or a damage spell (which use floating point values) it's quite often not an integer value. Since the lower limit is capped at zero, only by attempting to drain or damage the int below zero can you be sure that it ever actually hits zero. If you have an int of 50 and you try to drain it 50 points, you may very well hit 0.2 int, which wouldn't activate any special code. If, however, you attempted to drain it 51 points, the attribute would not go below zero, but would be forced to be EXACTLY zero, and it would hit that special condition.

Keep in mind that I originally said it "appears" to be so. I don't have access to the source code any more than anyone else that isn't an employee of Bethesda. But the situation as I described it actually DOES appear to fit the facts as you know them.

As to why 1 is a better ratio than 0, in the non-modified game, magicka only regenerates by rest or potion. If you set the ratio to 0 (or 0.001) then a spell that drains an enemy wizard's intelligence even for a single second would leave them helpless... which would ALSO be an ugly exploit, and make fighting magical creatures ridiculously easy. IMHO, that would be a much uglier exploit than the one being discussed.

How does he work his magic and look at the code?

I think the code we're talking about here is the assembly code. Basically, you use a dissassembler to turn the machine language of the program into symbolic assembly instructions. Then you make a sandwich and a big pot of coffee and start studying.

Of course it's a bug - it's a bug caused by the early oversight of a game designer, followed by a daft quick-fix 'solution' (however 'intentionally created'). Or, to put it another way, the 'solution' solves the division-by-zero bug, but fails to solve the horrible-and-senseless-game-balance bug. [of course it's possible that it's 100% the behaviour envisaged by the original designer, but I seriously doubt it]

Graphical glitches caused by eleventh-hour hacks around early design oversights are still called bugs - the fact that the eleventh-hour hack is intentional isn't really relevant.

In the sense that fixing a division-by-zero error would potentially create an absurd, senseless exploit, yes . The key is to avoid utterly daft solutions.

It's not a question of sensibilities, it's a question of game-world coherence. The zero-intelligence bug is nonsense in game world terms, but makes sense in an "Oh yeah, the designer wasn't thorough and the programmer came up with a simple non-solution" sense. Whenever it happens it's a kick in the teeth for suspension of disbelief.
Naturally it's not much of a problem, since it's rarely going to happen by accident - but that doesn't make it any less of a bug.



The obvious solution is to store the ratio every so often, and never overwrite it with an undefined value. That way you don't need to decide whether 0/0 is 1, 0 or whatever else - you simply go back to the last legitimate ratio, and restore that once intelligence is non-zero. It's not rocket science.

Is it difficult to understand and change the code? It just struck me as odd that nobody has tried messing with the code before in all those years that the game's been out.

Thanks - that was the bit of information I was missing. I was thinking about rounding issues, but excluded it (prematurely, as it seems) as a possible reason since I've only ever seen attribute values as integers. But it makes sense that the game keeps them internally as floats.


Good point. I hadn't thought about the switch in perspective - I only thought in terms of effects affecting the player, not in terms of effects used by the player to affect enemies. Taking this into account, I agree with you that setting the ratio to 0 wouldn't be better than setting it to 1. (Whether one of the two is actually worse might be open for debate, but the main point is that the potential solution I suggested would create new problems elsewhere, hence it's not really a solution. Conceded.)

I wonder, however, whether the ratio actually needs to be set to 1 (and whether Bethesda did that on purpose), or whether setting the ratio to 1 is just an unintended byproduct of an attempt to deal with a special case. Looking at the facts as they present themselves now, I see two possibilities:

1. If INT == 0, then the calculation that determines the ratio CurrentInt / MaxInt needs to be intercepted to prevent a division by zero. In doing so, Bethesda sets the ratio to 1 to prevent exploits which could set the magicka of an enemy to 0 very easily.

2. If INT == 0, then the calculation that determines the ratio CurrentInt / MaxInt needs to be intercepted to prevent a division by zero. Bethesda intercepted the calculation, but didn't actually think much about the resulting value, thereby missing the opportunity to simply leave it unchanged.

I don't think that we can determine which of thise alternatives is true, based on the data available to us. However, I wonder whether it wouldn't really be the best solution to keep the ratio unchanged as long as INT == 0. It shouldn't lead to any problems in the calculations as far as I understand them (which is, of course, not perfect).

Note: I'm still seeing this as a hypothetical discussion since I don't see a necessity to fix this, but I enjoy the discussion and it also furthers my understanding of the hgame's inner workings, which is a good thing (imho).

It's pretty difficult, yes, and it's definitely laborious work. It generally takes an assembly language wizard to figure it out.
So everyone really should be appreciative of Hrnchamd's wizardy

Only before the game content was created and balanced. Since it's now all been created/balanced assuming it's 1, Toccatta's right that setting it to zero would almost certainly be worse.

So long as it's possible to store an extra variable for each intelligence-and-magicka-using entity, storing a legitimate ratio, and only overwriting with a legitimate ratio is the obvious solution. If there's no way to do that, sticking with the current situation makes sense.

I'm not sure that storing the ratio would be a valid solution because of the existence of fortify magicka potions and spells. It's quite possible for a person with an int of 0 to actually still have magicka. For that reason, it's possible for a person to still consume magicka even when their intelligence is zero. Whenever available magicka changes, the ratio should change, and calculating a new ratio while the int was 0 would result in the 1/0 error. NOT calculating a new ratio would result in its own errors, resulting from the fact that those expended magicka points wouldn't be taken into account by the unchanged ratio. I can only imagine that it would result in yet another (although somewhat different) exploit, possibly as bad as the first except that it requires effort on someone's part to create... whereas leaving it alone does not.

It's basically like having an endless list of all chemical processes in a human body, but they all are encoded, so you don't know which processes are from which organ. You take this list, do a lot of detective work to understand the processes that are going on and what they intend to achieve, and then you try to cure the body by changing some of them. It's possible, but it requires a lot of knowledge about said chemical processes, body functions in general, and a lot of effort and persistence.

It has been done for other games too (Bhruic's patches for Master of Orion III are a popular example, and the "Wake of Gods" project for Heroes of Might and Magic III another one), but it's a rare and very fortunate coincidence to have someone in the community who has the skills, time, and motivation to do it. This is especially the case for Morrowind since (at least that's my impression) Morrowind isn't exactly the easiest game around to be fixed that way.

That sounds amazingly difficult, i can only hope that whatever company Hrnchamd works for then pays him what he is worth

I'm not seeing the problem here - you just never adjust the ratio to an undefined value. Whenever intelligence is zero, the ratio is undefined - so it could make sense to use any ratio once intelligence becomes non-zero. Using the last legitimate ratio might not always be a perfect solution, but it's hard to see how it's ever worse than using 100% regardless. I don't see any better solution. Note that this isn't simply a bug-fix for a special case - it's a means to avoid it being a special case altogether: i.e. to maintain continuity in magicka ratio at all times.
If the problem you're talking about would be calculating a ratio of e.g. 2.0 for some fortify magicka effect, all you'd need to do is cap it at 1.0.

Would it?? What errors exactly?
Since an 'error' is presumably a deviation from some ideal theoretical solution, what is the ideal theoretical solution here? How should a change from 'undefined ratio' to 'undefined ratio' be taken into account in an ideal system? How does my proposal fall short of this ideal?

Naturally the ideal solution would avoid such issues altogether by storing any fortify magicka amount separately, and having the ratio variable store only the ratio of natural magicka. I don't think that's possible with standard modding, but it might well be with the code - indeed it's very possibly like this already without any need for specific workarounds.

Why imagine? What's wrong with thinking things through thoroughly, then testing.
You came up with a precise argument against using 0 at all times. If it's not possible to do that here, it might well be because it's a viable solution - not necessarily because some vague, ethereal problems are lurking out there waiting to screw things up. Fortify magicka effects and similar are certainly something to think about + test, but not something to run from on the basis that they might cause some problem you can't quite define.

Just another suggestion, but maybe the spell radius can be expanded to 1000 to match the expanded magnitude.

Initially, someone has to stumble across a design flaw to then even consider exploiting it. Given that MW is designed to encourage the player to try whatever they can imagine within the limits of the implemented game interface, flaws will be uncovered and their resulting side-effects unintended by design. If such a flaw is identified and it's something that Hrnchamd can correct within the game engine, it should be considered as a bug fix.

I for one, want to be able to explore the mechanisms and options presented by the game without having to worry about whether doing so might result in a condition outside of the expected parameters as defined and presented by the game's interface (whether exploitable or not).


It has always bugged me that the UI can show that the remaining charge of a magic item is equal to the cast cost, but upon attempting to cast will state the item doesn't have enough charge left to activate. There's obviously a rounding error occurring related to the display. It's noticeable from the Magic Menu, item info from the Inventory Menu, and in the pop-up help when you cursor over the active magic item in the HUD.

Also noticed that changes to NPC disposition during transactions are only temporary; i.e. barter with a merchant and change their disp from 50 to 51, the next time you speak with them they will be back to 50 even if you speak with them immediately after the exchange. I would think that if I influence someone positively or negatively during a transaction that they would remember it.
This might be intended to only apply during the current dialog session - curious as to opinions whether this is OK if intended or should be more permanent. And if this might be fixable by mod instead of patching the engine.

Sorry for dragging out the paralysis out again, but I got an idea. Both the roleplaying and the ballancing part could be solved quite simply by changing the potion's effect from Cure Paralysis to Resist Paralysis 100% for 10-15sec. Using the potion before the opponent applies paralysis is a good compromise for both methinks.

That does make sense! It's a good compromise, and plus, if you were paralyzed with a very high luck score in unmodified morrowind, you'd never have to worry about be damaged too.

now for something completely different...
I mean, hey, luck is useful, although for some reason, skeleton archers still hit me....with 1500 luck...

Anyway, there are a good number of things in Morrowind that need to be fixed, and there are possibly still more to be found. I think what Hranchand should do is take a poll, and see how many other issues he hasn't fixed yet. I'm sure there's one or two, I mean, if he got them all, already, he's a genius!

I would like to second this idea. Hrnchamd seems uniquely suited to examining and possibly improving upon these programs. In general, I would like to see optimization and stabilization of Morrowind's engine. I know that's both vague and ambitious, but I'm afraid I don't know any better than to ask for the improbable. To be a little more specific, I've heard of Morrowind having a possible problem with memory leakage, and though I don't know exactly what that means or what its ramifications are, I would like to see a "plug," if you will, for this hypothetical issue.

From the MW manual: "Luck has an effect on everything you do, but governs no skills."

I don't think your luck score is used to influence what an adversary chooses to do.
Then again, we're talking about luck which comes in two flavors - good and bad luck. Wonder if your range is actually -1500 to 1500.

It doesn't have an influence on what things choose to do, but it does on if they hit you or not.

Sorry about my blank post earlier, but the forum has been ignoring everything I type, thinking I'm making blank posts. I've contacted the forum administrator, but nothing resolved. Don't know if moderators can do anything about it?
So I've made a new account (piratelord2)

Could anything about PTE please be put in the PTE topic, thanks.

I thought it was related to the forum skins? Maybe if you use another one...

The inclusion of a restore magicka magic effect in the game engine and it's non-inclusion in the game world itself clearly suggests otherwise.

It's annoying to use up all my magicka in a fight, and to then down a bottle (or two) of Sujamma to help finish it (or to help run away), only to get all my magicka back 60 seconds later when I clearly shouldn't. Restore magicka potions become pointless when it's exploited.

I suppose you have a point, Rocket! Yeah, I always wondered why the restore magicka doesn't exist as a spell.
Then again, it wouldn't really make sense. But, hey, it would make more sense then the soul trap glitch.

To Piratelord, gee, I'm glad you're not that angry at me. I was worried that you contacted the Dark Brotherhood....<dies>

I don't think Luck works in the -1500 range. I'd imagine the way Morrowind's code is, that would overflow to be very possitive. Like a negative fortify fatigue spell.

No, really, if it was easy to make a negative fortify fatigue spell, you'd see something interesting. I was playing with the random items mod, by PJstabb, ( a good mod, by the way) and came across some bandit I couldn't hit at all.

I killed him with spells and then saw a negative fatigue enchanted armor. He also hit me everytime too.
so, yeah, this game has some interesting bugs in it. Some of which are really hard to pull off.
I think Hranchand and a few others might be able to shine light on how the game mechanics "work" or in the case of the soul trap and restoration of magicka glitches above, how they don't work.

Finally installed this, and WOW what a difference it makes!

Couple of things (just to be clear: I'm not complaining, just thought you guys might want to know)...

This is the method I use, I *don't* use the fps optimiser, and the wrong exe is used if I start from the launcher (works fine if I start morrowind.exe directly).

Also, when I updated a companion she doubled - original reference was orphaned. I m 3298 ight have done something wrong here though, I'm not entirely clear on how best to update a mod with the patch installed. She also doubled when I tried without the patch, which is odd... In fact I updated two companions at almost the same time, and one was fine, the other wasn't. But as I said, it's quite possible I messed it up somehow. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.

If you're talking about Jasmine, Melian, then you need to update a little differently:

1. Put Jasmine into wander mode (change what you're doing=>wait here).
2. Save.
3. Swap out the esp.
4. Update your save using Wrye Mash, but do not use the repair all function - that will cause the NPCs I use to be deleted and you'll have to requip Jasmine.
5. Restart your game and it should be fine.

Note that the above only applies if you're using the saved game patch part (the first option of the patcher). I learned this the hard way...

Glad to hear that.


It's really odd, there's definitely something about the directory selection process that I don't understand correctly yet, or at least some factor that I don't yet know about. When I ran some tests, I at first found the launcher starting the wrong exe, but later couldn't reproduce that, so I concluded that I probably made a mistake in my first analysis. Now I wonder whether the launcher stores the location of the exe somewhere in the registry ... but it's really guesswork at this time. Any information about what exactly determines which exe will be loaded is greatly appreciated.


For updating mods, use the "Updater" function of Wrye Mash. This should prevent doubling. The savegame corruption fix of the MCP fixes reference missasignment due to load order changes or local ref bugs, but it can't help with reference misassignment due to updates of a plugin file, so that's still a potential source of doubling. Making an "updater" with Mash should prevent that though.

(Side note: As a side effect of the savegame corruption fix, the code-patched exe now implements stricter checks as to whether an esp has been removed or added. I have a (yet untested) theory that these stricter checks can lead to doubling *if* it sees the old and the new versions as unrelated different esps due to their mismatched file size, whereas the original exe simply wouldn't care about filenames or sizes and hence wouldn't double the reference as long as it kept its objectindex. I'll have to test that. But even in this case, updating the mod through Mash should prevent the doubling.

I just noticed your post here, and I am SO glad someone else has noticed this issue! Everyone thought I was going mad when I mentioned it (ages ago) and in the end I mostly gave up. What I think it is, though, is that the AI of all followers is updated/reset/dunno what to call it when something about the group changes (eg when someone leaves it by being put on wander), and when it happens at the wrong time (eg on a cellchange) it can mess things up. It also causes glitches in combat when one or more companions is on pacifist (=wander) and others are fighting. Some companions seem to have a bigger effect this way than others, but I don't have any idea why yet - actually one reason CBR ended up with such a monster of a pacifist script is because when he stops following, it's *really* noticeable (other companions put their weapons away, pause, then re-enter combat - I needed a way to avoid that!). Anyway I've recently started working on this door problem again - if I come up with something good I'll let you know.

Er... Back on topic... In fact I didn't put Jasmine on wander when I updated. I'll try that, then. Thanks!

I'd like to give my 2¢ on the magicka thing, because it's one of the little quirks that bothers me.

IMHO it doesn't make any sense for your current magicka to scale with your max. They should simply be tracked separately. Presumably if your max falls below your current magicka level you would lose the excess. The fortify magicka effect is a special case, since it does allow your magicka to go over max. So I guess you could look at this as fortifying the max by the same amount.

Also I don't like how your current Intelligence effects max magicka. I think it would be better and less prone to strange situations if max magicka was always derived from your base intelligence.

That's probably true, but removing the magicka bonus for fortified intelligence is removing one of the most important reasons for having a fortify intelligence enchantment.

I've updated my companion mod using the steps I outlined earlier without any doubling issues and I've increased the file size, so WM is still the way to go when updating a saved game with a new version of a plugin.

New Thread here

Yes, wonderful! I'd love to see that fixed. Maybe it'd be possible to have the disposition fall slowly over time (from post-transaction levels to base-line disposition). That way, if you keep trading with someone, you keep their disposition up -- you are a 'regular.' But, if you only visit someone once in a blue moon, then they will have forgotten about how great of a trader you were last time you two bartered.

I forget, are disposition changes dues to persuasion permanent, or do they decay over time?

Probably reset after 72hrs after not talking to them.

Post limit reached, please use the new thread here

Yeppers. Use that one now, please.