Hey, I just thought I'd ask a quick question.

I keep seeing references to something called savegame bloating, and various ways to avoid it. I also read about plenty things that causes savegame bloating. However, even when searching for it I've been unable to find out what this "savegame bloating" actually is. So I'd appreciate if someone could tell me.

In short: What is savegame bloating?

-Forral-

Here is an example of something that causes save game bloating :


And each of those 4.2 billion items has to be saved in the save game !! which causes the save game to become much larger and if it continues above that will eventually corrupt the save game.

I think some mods more than others cause save game bloating. Mods like the harvest mods that make everything open are thought to cause this I think

Your savegame contains info about changes to the gameworld.
The more changes that occur, the more info that needs to be saved, thus the bigger your savegame file becomes.

One big culprit is the placeAtMe function.
New objects that are created in the world using placeAtMe never disappear.
This is particularly a problem with mods that use invisible activators to cast spells at the player or enemies - you end up with lots of invisible activators which are no longer used but persist in the savegame indefinitely.

Items stored in inventories are another common culprit, especially with the negative item count bug mentioned above.

What effect does resetting the respawn timer to a large number have on save game bloating?

Setting the respawn timer to a larger number simply means the game has to remember which cells have been edited in any way for a longer time which also gives you more time to run around and change more cells.

Z

Does that constitute save game bloating?

Don't quote me on this But I don't think so because the game will still reset it after that amount of time, it just can cause a slow down at times.

Z

It will increase the size of your savegame, so yeah.
But most of that info, while it persists longer, is being culled from the savegame regularly.
The bigger problem is with stuff that never gets cleaned out, because it just piles up indefinitely until your game takes forever to load or your savegame becomes corrupt.

I wish there was a safe save game cleaner of some kind available.

would it be possible to have a list of mods that do this cause i use pj spell compendium and harvest flora and also harvest containers i really like those mods but if the activators stay around forever i might have to get rid of them.

i also use a couple of companion mods like cm partners and talkie toaster says share but i think that those were safe ones if i remember correctly.

Thanks guys. There's nothing as frustrating as constantly seeing this phenomenon mentioned, and not actually understanding what it is.

Basically it's a bunch of redundant information that's stored in the save, that when reaching a certain point, goes corrupt. Gotcha.

-Forral-

I've got about 200hours in on one savegame thats been though ATLEAST 700 different mods here and there in passing (only 242 at the moment)
It wakes me FOREVER to load or level these days....any fix? (i still have yet to start the MQ so i dont just wanna start over...level 37)

For the reference:

If using a mod that causes bloating, like a spell effect mod, just make a new save with that mod disabled.

THAT IS a safe way to clean the save file. Then just re-enable the mod.



This is only a real problem with mods that can´t be temporarily disabled, meaning harvest-like mods, cause this "clean saving" also loses all those objects that are MEANT to be stored (and made by that mod).


But overall, if the mod isn´t supposed to give you quests or objects, clean save is you friend.

Harvest [Flora] makes extensive use of the PlaceAtMe function.
( I should know I wrote Harvest [Flora] )

Technical details are probably not relevant, but indeed Harvest [Flora] will create some bloat to SaveGames.
Harvest [Containers] on the otherhand does NOT use the PlaceAtMe function...
It will not add any bloat to your SaveGames.

The concept of Harvest [Containers] uses animation to alter the "look" of containers.
This particular technique was unavailable during the development of Harvest [Flora]...
During development of Harvest [Containers] another MOD author Quarn ( of the UOP ),
Has developed a different MOD, that can replace Harvest [Flora] without the bloat.
That MOD is Realistic Flora downloadable from any number of sites.
If SaveGame bloat is a serious issue for you, I strongly recommend it.

-Dejunai

Unfortunately, one of the biggest culprits in this problem is Reznod's EasyCompanionShare. Mod's that use that version (like Ruined Tail versions prior to 1.0) can cause permanent bloating of your savegame.

This sort of bloating is not cleared by a clean save.

I know because it happened to me. My main character file went from roughly 10Mb to more than 26Mb in just a short while.

You can easily spot the problem using Wrye Bash's Statistics function on your savegame. It will show dramatically high counts of created weapons and books (in my case there are something like 50,000 "created" weapons and 90,000 books).

Does Frans items and Book Jackets Oblivion cause save game bloating?

/me slaps Bonk

Hey, I heard it was fun. And it is!

In case anyone thought he was serious, no, they do not cause bloat.

Thats good news! Those are great mods but still......

I've seen lots of "opinions" on what increasing the respawn rate will do to your save files, but those players never actually tested what would happen to prove their assumptions.

I have cell resets completely disabled for 250 hours of play, harvested thousands of plants and opened hundreds of containers using DEJ's harvest mods. My save file went slowly from 2MB to 12MB, and the load/save times haven't noticably increased (takes about six seconds regardless of save file size).

When I run around Tamriel, I can see all the harvested plants, all the opened containers, all the dead bodies, knocked over clutter, etc. (or should I write "ect." like everyone else?) since I first set foot in those cells. Since I never hired a clean-up crew to follow me everywhere I go, it's refreshing to know the world won't miraculously reset to the beginning of the game every 3 days as if I had never been anywhere.

Good point. However, chances are that autosave stopped working for you quite some time ago (if you ever had it enabled). Lots of people who've used extended respawn timers have reported that autosave starts crashing their game when they go through a load-door once your savegame gets fairly large (~10Mb).

It's possible that most of these complaints about crashing due to to extended respawn times had more to do with companion share bloating than with the respawn timer, but this would be fairly difficult to prove one way or the other.

My autosaves are still working fine. I've never had any problems at all yet. I did recently enable two companion mods (Shadow Ranger/Horse/Wolf/Panther and Neeshka), and my save is slowly starting to rise again (13MB now).

I've tried over 200 mods in this game, and still have over 100 enabled, and resetting cells just hasn't been necessary. After playing this long without resets, I don't think I can ever go back. It's plain silly to me to play where cells reset every 3 days. That means practically every cell you ever enter is refreshed to how it was the first time you visted, and you've made no changes all the times you have been there. Might as well just start a brand new character every 3 days to make sure it doesn't get corrupted by playing it too long. (OK, now I'm getting way too sarcastic.)

I understand the problems that save file bloating can cause, but disabling cell resets doesn't seem to cause any problems, and most reports of problems come from other sources.

Of course that's equally unrealistic, since nature does clean things up. Bodies get dragged off by carrion eaters, weather erodes hills and covers trash, in cities, people pick up after themselves and others to maintain quality of life...and organics biodegrade, plants grow back

but hey, to each his own...I'll take accelerated cleanup over no cleanup, personally

Would PureCellBuffers(mod) help this?

Sigh, I wish I had read this thread about a week ago.

I'm currently using the longer respawn esp from Frans, Harvest Flora and Skycaptain's rather excellent Deadly Reflexs combat mod. Like he mentioned earlier in this thread, Skycaptain suggests making a clean save without his mod about once a week. However I can only go about 3 to 4 hours with his mod enabled before I start to crash while saving, I was tempted to make a whiny post in that mod's thread, but I guess the longer respawns and Harvest Flora are greatly accelerating the process.

I suppose the longer I play the worse it will get, even without Deadly Reflexes enabled. Oh well at least I only invested about 50 hours with my current charactor

Edit: Ok its not all doom and gloom. Just had a look at Realistic Flora seems its possible to transition from Harvest flora to Realistic Flora....

Their is no fault with reznod's Easy Companion Share (doesn't use PlaceAtMe at all), it's the fault of the author of the companion mod because they are the one who set the companion to have infinite of an item! Killing the NPC who has been afflicted infinite item bug (caused by using removeallitems to a container then back from the container to the NPC) will stop the infinite allowing the items to be removed.



Purge cell buffers removes unused objects from your RAM and video card RAM not your savegames.

Quarn,

question this topic of having infintie of an item does this effect a npc who has this -1 item in a leveled list or does this not apply?

is there a tool to remedy this?

You can't set items in a level list to infinite (-1), infinite items in a NPC's inventory cannot cause bloating in a standard game, it's only triggered by mods and console commands.

just thought I would ask about it thank you

Morrowind has SetDelete 1 to fix that problem. What about Oblivion?

It also has DontSaveObject to avoid putting in the savegame all the data about things that don't need to be saved, like the state a moving activator (such as a shop sign) is. Again, what about Oblivion?

I have seen modders speak of moving objects spawned with PlaceAtMe to a "trashcan cell", but i havent heard anything about how this would prevent the savefile to grow.

If anyone would care to enlighten me, feel free.

In fact, Reznod's Easy Companion Share does have a bloat problem. It uses DuplicateAllItems (duplicating them to a duplicate of the NPC) in order to calculate and display encumbrance. If any of the NPC's items are scripted items, then they become permanently duplicated (and impossible to destroy) every time the Duplicate AllItems call is made. Since that call is made every frame while the companion's inventory screen is open, you get bloat very quickly (tens of megabytes in a few seconds).

I did come up with a fix for Simyaz to use in later Ruined Tail versions, which instead of duplicating items uses RemoveAllItems to transfer them to the companion and then back. That does fix the original bug (scripted items don't cause bloat anymore), but I didn't know about the negative items bug with RemoveAllItems .

Oh well, at least it is possible to avoid that one by creating the companion NPC correctly.

[edit]
Thanks to everyone for the info .

It's a different strategy, in fact.

The idea is to always use the same item, and hide it in a special cell when not used.

It's much better than creating a new item every time.

Quarn,

It would be much appreciated if you could follow up with a response to andyw's post.

Thanks!

With this talk of the Easy Companion thing, I'm wondering... does Toaster's Companion Share and Recruit have any such problem?

FYI, dev_akm asked me to take a shot at his bloated savegame (about 26 Mb, bloating due to older version of Reznod's companion share). After a bit of analysis, I was able to come up with a bish script that discarded the obvious junk. Result was that savegame was trimmed down to 5.9 Mb and (somewhat surprisingly) still ran.

If you're concerned about bloating, first, look at the size. If you're below 8Mb, I wouldn't worry about it. Second thing to do is to go to Bash, right click on the savegame and choose "Statistics" command. (If the game really is bloated, this may take a little while to display.) Statistics will list various info. Main things to look at are:

Created Items: These are the items created and remembered in-game, e.g., spells, enchanted weapons, alchemical potions. The other major addition here is scripted items on an npc that has been duplicated. E.g., your statue in Bruma is actually a duplicated copy of the player, with all your inventory elements duplicated. The problem here is with older Reznod's which duplicates the companion repeatedly, thus duplicating all of the companions scripted elments as new "created" items. Dev_akm's save had 57k created weapons -- all multiple copies of the same enchanted weapon.

Change Records A number of entries (e.g., 21 Books) that show the types of change records. These show the entries, broken down by source mod (or the savegame itself at the end), along with number of entries belonging to each mod/savegame. The thing to look for here is the number of entries belonging to the savegame. E.g., dev_akm had 97k books (all the same) and 120k object refs -- about 1/3 of those object refs were legit, but the rest were bogus somehow.

In terms of size, the created items are the major space consumers, since they're complete descriptions of the items, and since they're in the space-inefficient mod file format. The change records are less of a size problem. However, it might be possible that they affect the game in some otherway (e.g., FPS) -- after all they're all entries in the ingame database, and so their mere presence might slow access to other components. (I'm guessing here -- it's possible that their impact is negligible.)

After cleaning dev_akm's game, I now know a little bit more about how the savegame handles created objects in-game, and it's probably possible to go through and delete all instances of a given type (e.g. all dropped torches). So probably past bloating can be removed to a certain degree. (The main concern here is the question of how safe it is to remove objects -- dev_akm seemed to not have much problems, but others might not be so lucky.)

Generalized bloating cleaning: While I hand tailored the deletion script for dev_akm, it's probably possible to automate that to a fair degree. I'll take a shot when I get a chance (which won't be any sooner than this weekend, and may not be for several weeks.)

Cool. If anyone can solve this, it's Wrye!

Oh wow, I am kind of scared now. My savegame is around 7 mb, steadily increasing. I just checked the stats of my latest save game:

Array Sizes
177 Created Items
82066 Records
16201 FormIds

Oops, looks like I miss-read, thought someone said Reznod's Easy Companion Share used PlaceAtMe. I wasn't aware of the problem with DuplicateAllItems... DuplicateAllItems seems a rather nasty command when used on a NPC/player with equipped items to duplicate to a container, causes a game crash if the duplicated equipped item is removed from the container.

I think the problem is that in the game as released by Bethesda, DuplicateAllItems is only used in some very specific and controlled instances (eg, the Bruma statue of the player). As a result, there are some bugs in it that simply weren't an issue for Bethesda - and were probably never even known about.

It looks like the same is even true of RemoveAllItems - and I'm sure a host of other commands .

If Wrye is able to work out an automatic purging of bloated savegames that would be fantastic. Even a fairly conservative removal of the most obviously faulty entries would be a great boon - all that's needed is to get the savegame size low enough to make the impact bearable. I'll bet there are plenty of people out there with mildly bloated saves who don't even know, and aren't bothered.

As I said in my PM to you, you're a miracle worker! I haven't been able to find any problems in my savegame after the bloat cleaning, so I definitely think it's worth attempting a general-purpose version of that code. Thanks again, Wrye!

My question seems to have gotten passed over...



And Wyre, thats awesome news. I try my hardest to keep from using mods that bloat, but I'm not about to check every single mod I download. Luckily my save file is sitting at a nice 4.6MB right now, so it seems I've gotten pretty lucky. If I ever get a bloated save though, something to fix it (like the incredible Wyre Bash) would be priceless. Keep up the amazing script work.

Just guessing here, but unless he calculates encumbrance like Reznod did, then probably not.

Doesn't look like a problem. Created Items looks pretty reasonable, esp if you're an alchemist. You might check to see if one of your subrecord types has a particularly large number of changes belonging to the savegame, but that's it. Again, this doesn't look like a problem to me just from this section of the statistics.

Note that to date, the only problems that I've seen with bloating are due to the older companion duplicating bug. If you've got this problems it becomes apparent pretty rapidly (savegames start heading towards 20 Mb, and keep going -- I think I recall someone from the discussion 9 months ago who had a savegame aroud 80 Mb) I think that's a pretty small number of players these days.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the useful thing would be to see someone who's never used companion sharing and yet has extremely high numbers of created records and/or some object change type (according to Bash statistics command).

I don't use any companion sharing mods, but I was planning to download one until I stumbled upon this thread

I remember there was a mod that incorporated Reznod's mod by giving your character the ability to recruit/dress guild members once you have become the guildmaster. Good thing I did a search for it here before I searched at TESS.

Most of the records in my stats are associated with the saves. I do use about 100+ mods and a large number of references are associated with Oscuro's OO. But other than that it looks pretty decent. *wipes sweat from brow and waits for the cleaning script*

Geeze I feel like we just realized mods have high cholestrol and we are creating a movement for a "leaner, fitter, virtual space!"

Ah-ha!

Now I know why my game starts to crash while attempting to autosave/quicksave after a while. While I'm not able to 'clean' my savegames properly I can at least minimise further damage by weeding out the mods that are known to have an issue (i.e. Harvest Flora).

Thanks for all this information, guys! It does make sense when you think about it - it's just that I never really thought about it that much. Heh.

Anything my mod leaves in your save games can be cured with a clean save, as they are unique activators from my mods folder.

However, if your save is ALREADY bloated by ANOTHER MOD, you will naturally keep reaching the limit, as the main bloat from those other mods persists, of course.


What is this limit then? Dark Dragon made an educated guess that there´s probably a buffer of some 32Mb (a power of 2 anyway), so it SHOULD be safe as long as you keep below, say, 20 Mb. There´s no actual proof of this, but the theory seems to work, from what I have heard.

couldnt someone create a mod/tool (i know this is gonna be near impossible, sorry) which 'tags' unessessary data as its created in game and then when the size reaches a limit it purges all the non essential data from the save. Like a tool which will notice if an item has been duplicated and tag it for deletion when the time comes. Just an idea though.

The thing that bumps cleaning DOWN my todo list is the complete lack of data here. I see a bunch of people screaming, "OMG! My savegame is sooooo bloated!", but I'm seeing zero statistics posted. How big is the savegame? What stats are out of whack?

Get the numbers from Wrye Bash's statistics command and post them here. Things to post:
1) Size of savegame. If it's less than 10Mb, quit worrying.
2) Number of created objects.
3) Any record type that has over 10k objects from the savegame. EXCEPT for objectrefs -- in that case, the number of objects has to be over 60k.

I've got a bunch of stuff on my plate, so I don't want to waste time fixing a phantom problem, when I could be working on something more productive (e.g., COBL, LGNCP Seyda Neen, support for unicode, etc.). So, before I work on this, Show me the money!! Err... Numbers.

Hey, sorry Wrye. I thought you already had fleshed out how you were going to go about this and didn't want to be boggled down by a ton of stats. Here is more detailed stats from my latest save.

Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x475740F8
Float: 55104.97

Array Sizes
196 Created Items
87690 Records
16624 FormIds

Created Items
184 ALCH
3 ARMO
2 CLOT
6 ENCH
1 WEAP

FormIds
587 Lost Refs (FormId == 0)
12610 Oblivion.esm
194 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
2 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
5 DLCHorseArmor.esp
25 DLCOrrery.esp
136 DEJ Harvest - Flora.esp
670 moDem's Life - English.esp
1570 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
1 Mart's Monster Mod - Less Bone Loot.esp
1 974-Faster Turning Horses-TESSource.esp
5 1298-Horse AI-TESSource.esp
7 Better Oblivion Pack 17 - Oblivion Gates.esp
3 Illumination.esp
20 Cyrodiil Most Wanted v.1.0.esp
19 LG's Unique Enemies.esp
223 Player Hunters Fame and Infamy - Normal.esp
72 DLCFrostcrag.esp
3 teleport ring Frostcrag.esp
14 DLCThievesDen.esp
13 DLCVileLair.esp
91 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
186 Knights.esp
1 Balance fixes.esp
67 DLCSpellTomes.esp
2 Days&Months.esp
1 1310-Chamelion-NoRefraction-TESSource.esp
1 No psychic guards v1.2.esp
4 IS_CaskOfSouls_1.1.esp
1 Toaster's Brutal Stealth.esp
5 P1DkeyChain.esp
4 HorseSpeedEqualsPlayerSpeed.esp
9 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
3 MM_SneakMarksman.esp
3 Will_to_Kill_by_Mojodot.esp
1 No Sun Damage v1.0.esp
1 Vampire Aging Disabled 2 XYoung.esp
1 Casual Oblivion 0.2 Levelled Rewards.esp
1 drzwi.esp
20 RenGuardOverhaul.esp
2 Unlimited Rings 2.0 -auto.esp
38 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
2 _Ren_BeautyPack_onlyhairs.esp

6 Faction
30 Oblivion.esm
1 Player Hunters Fame and Infamy - Normal.esp
31 Total

20 Armor
3 Save 42 -
3 Total

21 Book
53 Oblivion.esm
2 DLCOrrery.esp
1 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
5 DLCFrostcrag.esp
61 Total

22 Clothing
3 Oblivion.esm
2 Save 42 -
5 Total

27 Misc. Item
1 Oblivion.esm
1 Total

33 Weapon
4 Oblivion.esm
1 Save 42 -
5 Total

35 NPC
1059 Oblivion.esm
558 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
5 DLCOrrery.esp
44 moDem's Life - English.esp
1063 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
8 Better Oblivion Pack 17 - Oblivion Gates.esp
154 Player Hunters Fame and Infamy - Normal.esp
3 DLCThievesDen.esp
2 DLCVileLair.esp
52 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
36 Knights.esp
1 DLCSpellTomes.esp
2985 Total

36 Creature
10 Oblivion.esm
15 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
25 Total

39 Key
17 Oblivion.esm
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 P1DkeyChain.esp
19 Total

48 Cell
3376 Oblivion.esm
1 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
2 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
247 Save 42 -
3627 Total

49 Object Ref
49395 Oblivion.esm
5 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
5 DLCHorseArmor.esp
21 DLCOrrery.esp
68 moDem's Life - English.esp
2457 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
14 Better Oblivion Pack 17 - Oblivion Gates.esp
47 Landmarks.esp
2 Illumination.esp
2 Cyrodiil Most Wanted v.1.0.esp
23 Player Hunters Fame and Infamy - Normal.esp
512 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 teleport ring Frostcrag.esp
103 DLCThievesDen.esp
49 DLCVileLair.esp
169 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
188 Knights.esp
8 IS_CaskOfSouls_1.1.esp
1 Toaster's Brutal Stealth.esp
1 HorseSpeedEqualsPlayerSpeed.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
1 Will_to_Kill_by_Mojodot.esp
12 RenGuardOverhaul.esp
71 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
18611 Save 42 -
71767 Total

50 NPC Ref
1566 Oblivion.esm
5 DLCOrrery.esp
134 moDem's Life - English.esp
234 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
16 Cyrodiil Most Wanted v.1.0.esp
121 Player Hunters Fame and Infamy - Normal.esp
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
3 DLCVileLair.esp
50 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
50 Knights.esp
1 DLCSpellTomes.esp
3 RenGuardOverhaul.esp
1 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
343 Save 42 -
2528 Total

51 Creature Ref
554 Oblivion.esm
1 DLCHorseArmor.esp
2 moDem's Life - English.esp
152 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
5 DLCFrostcrag.esp
7 DLCThievesDen.esp
43 Knights.esp
3334 Save 42 -
4098 Total

58 Dialog Entry
2129 Oblivion.esm
1 DLCOrrery.esp
52 Knights.esp
14 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
2196 Total

59 Quest
232 Oblivion.esm
62 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
1 DLCHorseArmor.esp
1 DLCOrrery.esp
2 Oscuro's_Oblivion_Overhaul.esp
1 Better Oblivion Pack 17 - Oblivion Gates.esp
4 Player Hunters Fame and Infamy - Normal.esp
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 DLCThievesDen.esp
1 DLCVileLair.esp
1 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
12 Knights.esp
1 Xero's Fame Indicator.esp
1 Toaster's Brutal Stealth.esp
3 P1DkeyChain.esp
2 HorseSpeedEqualsPlayerSpeed.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Skills & Stats.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
1 Better Oblivion Pack 12 - Retroactive Health.esp
6 RenGuardOverhaul.esp
3 Unlimited Rings 2.0 -auto.esp
1 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
339 Total

That doesn't look very bad. How large is your savegame?

ripple: Exactly. That doesn't look bloated to me.

My lastest savegame is about 7.5 mb. I've had no problems, but I am only about 35 hours into the game. In a previous incarnation, when I was 100+ hours into the game, the savegame became corrupted and I could no longer load from it. Of course, that was months ago, before I knew anything about bloating. If I had that savegame still I'd post it here :/

If anyone is actually suffering from a bloated savegame, now is the time to report it here. Otherwise, Wrye is likely to lose interest in creating a general-purpose fix for it.

Well I'm not "suffering" as of yet, but is 8MB really the clinch point? I have a game approaching that, but I don't think I have any mods that are going to cause this problem, plus, it's not given me any problems yet.

The strange thing is, i'm about 33 hours into the game with this character, and i have another one with about 60 hours, and that save is only 4MB. (this one is 7MB)


What would really be nice is a save cleaning feature like Wrye MASH had for morrowind (in that, you could do a "Sync to load list" and it would clear out unneeded data and sync up the mods (in this case, formIDs))

Probably a long way off, but I hope it can be attained someday. Wrye Bash (And Mash) is an essential tool for me.

EDIT - I see Wrye is guessing at a buffer limit of 10MB (Would more likely to me to be 8MB or 16MB, as it would be a multiple of 8).

As skycaptain said above I made a guess at more around 32MB, hence why a lot of people with 20MB or larger savegames are having problems.

On a side note, Skycaptain, I did run a clean save with my 7,011KB save game without your mod, and it had very little effect, so your mod really doesn't bloat all that bad (And this character shield bashes, a LOT). It went from 7,011KB to 7,009KB. Only a 2KB differance after 7 levels of shield bashing madness.



EDIT - Also like to report that I DO have savegames from awhile ago (that is, that haven't been played with ALL my mods as I haven't played them recently) with 100+ hours, and they are not too large either. In fact, my longest savegame at 151 hours (last saved in October, 2006 though) is only 4,995KB (smaller than my more recent save in fact)

So yeah, no idea why people would have such large saves.

Now my morrowind saves are a differant story... (largest there is 11,312KB, but we're not talking about Morrowind of course)

Man, brings back memories. In TNR the Imperials I must have used the Placeatme function at least five hundred times - saving over the file every five NPCs or so. At one point my game stuttered to roughly 2 frames per second. Insane. My saves are much cleaner these days.

Yea i use the harvest mod and i have been starting to get unusual slowdowns aswell even in Very Low Quality Video mode which always gives me blazing FPS rates. I also noticed i never had this problem in one version of harvest mod which included clams. I accidently used another version without the clams and now am seeing slow down.

Am not sure about this but i heard slow downs also occur due to dead bodies and plant branches in caves twitching. The Unofficial Patch fixes this along with some other mods out there.

I was a longtime Harvest[Flora] user (using Realistic Flora now). I still use Harvest[Containers], but that's not a problem.

Size: 10588KB
Hours: 273.05

Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x48D2C842
Float: 431682.06

Array Sizes
421 Created Items
162735 Records
24828 FormIds

Created Items
289 ALCH
6 ARMO
8 CLOT
25 ENCH
3 INGR
53 KEYM
2 LIGH
21 MISC
1 NPC_
1 SLGM
12 WEAP

FormIds
2121 Lost Refs (FormId == 0)
20025 Oblivion.esm
241 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
18 Francesco's optional new creatures add-on.esm
505 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
41 AWS-Core.esm
33 Natural Interiors.esm
638 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
12 Crafting Skill Engine.esm
7 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
4 GuildStorage.esp
1 Cliff_BetterLetters.esp
1 Deadlier Traps.esp
2 Marksman Velocity.esp
1 BuyLockpicks.esp
4 Trainer_Book.esp
1 noreplicas.esp
3 attack and hide v1.0.esp
5 KT_DetectHostility.esp
1 haz_blackjack.esp
2 Deadlier Sneaking 1.1.esp
6 Multicolored_Glass.esp
14 CallSteed3.0a.esp
1 BoneGrind.esp
2 MM_AllowRepair.esp
10 More Realistic Encumbrance.esp
1 More Sigils.esp
58 TimboeMultiMark & Recall.esp
1 DarkAltars.esp
5 P1DkeyChain.esp
20 DLCThievesDen.esp
1 GalerionLeveling-v11.esp
29 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
4 HaroK_Arrow_Forge.esp
5 AlternativeLightArmors1.2.esp
96 DLCSpellTomes.esp
1 rdweaponpack1.esp
1 CM_Better Wine.esp
1 CyrodiilicBrandy.esp
12 kt_dancingweaponbeta.esp
29 Encyclopaedia Cyrodilica.esp
2 Flee Further.esp
42 geomancy.esp
25 Gray Fox's Armory v2.0.esp
13 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Skills & Stats.esp
8 wd purse of wonders.esp
34 Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp
66 Town_Ceremonial_Armor.esp
19 MD_Saddle_Bags_Lite_v2.esp
1 A's Silver Ebony Armour and Weapons.esp
5 LouderNirnroot.esp
9 Pestilent Afflictions.esp
2 FemaleArmorPack1.esp
1 Quest Award Leveling - Spell Leveling Compatability.esp
6 SM Racial Spell Leveling.esp
6 SM Start Spell Levelling.esp
2 Quest Award Leveller.esp
6 Improved_potion_of_exploration_11.esp
7 zDangerSensev1-0.esp
23 zDangerSenseV1-2.esp
27 Q - More and Moldy Ingredients v1.1.esp
52 RTSWelkyndClstrTreasure.esp
24 Piratelords Trade Fixes.esp
10 bnmDLTIC-1-6.esp
23 RandomEncounters.esp
1 Bonemold_helmet.esp
12 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
18 IWR - Windows Lights Shutters - Optimised.esp
9 Confessional Priests -Ver 1.1-.esp
2 Bullettimemodsetkey.esp
1 Leyawiin Bridge.esp
5 Rowboats.esp
2 Slof's Oblivion Robe Trader.esp
7 SSEE.esp
1 Francesco's optional house chest loot.esp
12 AWS-Storms & Sound.esp
4 weather inside [silent seasons] v1.2.esp
2 Natural Interiors - Cities.esp
1 Players with Jobs.esp
1 TNR - The Redguards.esp
12 Mart's Monster Mod for Francescos.esp
83 Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
18 Harvest[Containers].esp
2 Harvest[Containers] - Flat-Top Barrels Add-on.esp
18 Harvest[Containers] - Havok Crates Add-on.esp
5 Francesco's HC compatibility.esp
3 P1DcandlesForKleptos.esp
20 Special Abilities.esp
1 City Gates.esp
3 Rope Ladders v1.esp
7 Stealth Entrances v1.esp
23 AliveWaters.esp
16 AliveWaters - Koi Addon.esp
3 RenKnockOutArrow.esp
13 BlackpowderBombs.esp
4 Assassin_Blade.esp
2 DBShadowSet_NE.esp
7 DM-ACArmor.esp
1 StealthOverhaul.esp
23 LCE-addon.esp
7 DeadlyReflex - Combat Moves.esp
10 PortableOblivionPortal.esp
67 Morrowind Ingredients_MMM.esp
4 RealisticFlora.esp
11 Shields Of Antiquity.esp
1 Better Bell Sounds.esp
3 HTFpcb Extended.esp
2 RobMaleBody+ElaborateEyes+Ren(OH).esp
2 Rainbows.esp
2 Divine Magicka.esp

6 Faction
36 Oblivion.esm
36 Total

19 Unknown
20 Oblivion.esm
20 Total

20 Armor
561 Oblivion.esm
42 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
533 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
6 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
1142 Total

21 Book
229 Oblivion.esm
1 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
3 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
233 Total

22 Clothing
493 Oblivion.esm
11 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
504 Total

25 Unknown
2 Oblivion.esm
2 Total

26 Light
2 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
2 Total

27 Misc. Item
196 Oblivion.esm
1 HaroK_Arrow_Forge.esp
21 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
218 Total

33 Weapon
848 Oblivion.esm
94 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
663 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
12 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
1617 Total

34 Unknown
58 Oblivion.esm
58 Total

35 NPC
1336 Oblivion.esm
355 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
1 Francesco's optional new creatures add-on.esm
558 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
3 DLCThievesDen.esp
4 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
1 DLCSpellTomes.esp
37 RandomEncounters.esp
38 Francesco's optional chance of stronger bosses.esp
74 Francesco's optional chance of stronger enemies.esp
75 Francesco's TNR compatibility.esp
111 Mart's Monster Mod for Francescos.esp
75 Francesco's HC compatibility.esp
3 LCE-addon.esp
1 PortableOblivionPortal.esp
1 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
2673 Total

36 Creature
83 Oblivion.esm
54 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
1 kt_dancingweaponbeta.esp
138 Total

38 Unknown
24 Oblivion.esm
1 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
25 Total

39 Key
29 Oblivion.esm
53 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
82 Total

48 Cell
6043 Oblivion.esm
1 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
1 Rowboats.esp
1 Stealth Entrances v1.esp
873 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
6919 Total

49 Object Ref
83693 Oblivion.esm
4 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
3 GuildStorage.esp
3 Cliff_BetterLetters.esp
1 Trainer_Book.esp
2 Multicolored_Glass.esp
1 TimboeMultiMark & Recall.esp
11 DarkAltars.esp
1 P1DkeyChain.esp
103 DLCThievesDen.esp
1 GalerionLeveling-v11.esp
1 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
2 HaroK_Arrow_Forge.esp
1 AlternativeLightArmors1.2.esp
1 rdweaponpack1.esp
1 Encyclopaedia Cyrodilica.esp
1 geomancy.esp
1 Gray Fox's Armory v2.0.esp
100 Landmarks, w Wells.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
4 wd purse of wonders.esp
1 Town_Ceremonial_Armor.esp
3 MD_Saddle_Bags_Lite_v2.esp
5 Pestilent Afflictions.esp
30 zDangerSensev1-0.esp
63 zDangerSenseV1-2.esp
4 Piratelords Trade Fixes.esp
6 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
1986 IWR - Windows Lights Shutters - Optimised.esp
7 Rowboats.esp
32 Francesco's More Wilderness Life.esp
28 AWS-Storms & Sound.esp
44 weather inside [silent seasons] v1.2.esp
35 Natural Interiors - Cities.esp
1 Players with Jobs.esp
109 Francesco's TNR compatibility.esp
289 Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp
108 Francesco's HC compatibility.esp
1 Special Abilities.esp
15 Rope Ladders v1.esp
7 Stealth Entrances v1.esp
482 AliveWaters.esp
27 AliveWaters - Koi Addon.esp
1 RenKnockOutArrow.esp
1 CheydinhalSanctuaryMarker.esp
1 BlackpowderBombs.esp
1 DM-ACArmor.esp
16 LCE-addon.esp
5 PortableOblivionPortal.esp
16 Morrowind Ingredients_MMM.esp
1 Better Bell Sounds.esp
1 Rainbows.esp
52695 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
139957 Total

50 NPC Ref
1605 Oblivion.esm
4 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
1 DLCSpellTomes.esp
1 zDangerSensev1-0.esp
1 zDangerSenseV1-2.esp
10 RandomEncounters.esp
1 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
4 Confessional Priests -Ver 1.1-.esp
1 DM-ACArmor.esp
14 LCE-addon.esp
110 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
1752 Total

51 Creature Ref
674 Oblivion.esm
9 DLCThievesDen.esp
1 zDangerSenseV1-2.esp
1 Enhanced Quest Roleplaying.esp
1 Confessional Priests -Ver 1.1-.esp
16 Francesco's TNR compatibility.esp
16 Francesco's HC compatibility.esp
2 Stealth Entrances v1.esp
73 LCE-addon.esp
969 Save 1215 - Carius Seianus - The Colovian Highlands, Level 58, Playing Time 273.05.34.ess
1762 Total

58 Dialog Entry
4684 Oblivion.esm
3 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
1 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
17 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
3 Enhanced Quest Roleplaying.esp
2 Confessional Priests -Ver 1.1-.esp
4 LFox Expensive Arena Gambling.esp
4714 Total

59 Quest
244 Oblivion.esm
24 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
1 Francesco's optional new creatures add-on.esm
359 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
3 AWS-Core.esm
2 Natural Interiors.esm
8 Crafting Skill Engine.esm
65 Unofficial Oblivion Patch.esp
1 CallSteed3.0a.esp
1 More Realistic Encumbrance.esp
1 P1DkeyChain.esp
1 DLCThievesDen.esp
1 GalerionLeveling-v11.esp
1 Toaster Says Share 2.12.esp
2 HaroK_Arrow_Forge.esp
1 kt_dancingweaponbeta.esp
1 Gray Fox's Armory v2.0.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Mastery.esp
1 Toaster's Legendary Skills & Stats.esp
77 wd purse of wonders.esp
2 Natural_Habitat_by_Max_Tael.esp
1 Town_Ceremonial_Armor.esp
1 Pestilent Afflictions.esp
4 Quest Award Leveling - Spell Leveling Compatability.esp
1 SM Racial Spell Leveling.esp
1 SM Spell Quest Levelling.esp
2 SM Start Spell Levelling.esp
9 Quest Award Leveller.esp
10 zDangerSensev1-0.esp
10 zDangerSenseV1-2.esp
1 bnmDLTIC-1-6.esp
14 RandomEncounters.esp
1 EshmesBodiesV2.esp
1 IWR - Windows Lights Shutters - Optimised.esp
1 Bullettimemodsetkey.esp
3 AWS-Storms & Sound.esp
2 Players with Jobs.esp
2 Special Abilities.esp
1 Assassin_Blade.esp
3 StealthOverhaul.esp
1 LCE-addon.esp
1 Deadly Reflex - no damage and durability changes.esp
3 DeadlyReflex - Combat Moves.esp
1 PortableOblivionPortal.esp
1 RealisticFlora.esp
1 HTFpcb Extended.esp
1 Bow UnNock.esp
2 Rainbows.esp
1 Divine Magicka.esp
877 Total

61 AI Package
4 Oblivion.esm
4 Total

Oh dear, I was going to use the placeAtMe All the time for my mod Is there any workaround?

Pretty easy to avoid PlaceAtMe (or clean it up if you do), what exactly are you looking to do?

I'm going to make a bow that spawns monsters where the arrow lands.

It moves a rock (for now) that will put a monster there.

Edit: check sig below

Well as long as you're not placing down creature level lists, creatures marked as quest item or respawn you'll be fine, the game will clean them up.

Awesome! Thanks.

Ok so basically its a deadly bug with no way of stopping it... humm I'm just going to go check my system...

Couple of questions for you guys who know more then me!

Does this save game bloat occur from companion mods which "respawn" a new companion whenever you change their inventory?

Does this problem occur when using furniture mods like the Imperial Furniture store, or that buyable display cases one?

Last, does Realistic Flora cause bloat?

Thanks.

Please read. If you had, you'd have noticed in this very thread:

1) Yes, companion share mods can quickly cause massive save game bloat.
2) Realistic Flora was created as a bloat-less alternative to Deja's Harvest Flora.

I don't have any reason to suspect that furniture mods will bloat the save game significantly. Even if you place a few hundred new pieces of furniture, I doubt it would do much.

Could anyone tell me if the following companion mods are bloatless or if they are suspect?

- ME_MERCENARIES
- CM Partners
- Toaster says share (I thought I saw in the previous posts that this was OK, but asking just in case).

I think I've cleared up most of the other possibles...

CM Partners is safe and bloatless.

Toaster's mod is safe.

Tibixe's Unique Companions is safe.

Vincente and Valeria are safe (they have their own custom share which does not use the vulnerable commands).

As far as Companion mods go, it's really only Companion mods based on the old version of Reznod's Easy Companion Share (before AndyW's fix) which cause bloat. IIRC, CreateFullActorCopy and it's antithesis caused duplicates of scripted items, but did not delete them, which is what led to the bloat.

The most recent versions of Ruined-Tale, the Butcher of Armindale and the Legacy should be safe, since they use AndyW's fixed version, but the older versions of Ruin (for example) were not safe, which is why AndyW made the fix.

Ariana Trudeaux used the old version of Reznod's mod, and is thus NOT safe from bloat, for example.

Basically, check to make sure that the Companion mod you like does NOT require Reznod's Easy Companion Share, or if it does, that it uses AndyW's fixed version.

Best thing would be to type EXACTLY what version of a mod is safe instead of saying "the latest version".

Like "foobar mod version 1.7 or higher is safe".

I agree, but without going through all of the scripting, how do I know which of the mods I'm using are absolutely, positively safe?

Also...

Dunno if this is on-topic, but while tracking down some pesky goblins with Companion Neeshka (v1.4a) I placed a loaf of bread I found in a cavern container into her inventory.

After exiting the cave when I accessed her property (to do some armorer work) I found 9K of bread... >9000 loaves... and Neeshka wasn't encumbered at all! So I transferred most of the bread to my own inventory, leaving her ONLY 1 loaf and then, of course, found I couldn't move. I was over-loaded.

I dropped all of my bread on the ground (in one package) and when I went back to her inventory... there were another >9000 breads!

This time I removed ALL of her breads to myself and then dropped them (again in one package) to the ground and consoled "disable" on each of the >9000 grounded loaf packages. When I rechecked Neeshka's inventory there was no more bread. I've not had a similar problem since.

The above happened somewhere around Save 58 or 59. I'm now playing just past Save64 at level 31. I regularly use OBMM with Wrye Bash and run Repair Abomb. My save games have increased in size from 1,630 KB (Save1) to 3,858 KB (Save26) to 4,133 KB (Save52) to 4,711 KB (Save64) now.

I have no bloating, I'm thinking, but easily might have, had I not noticed the unusual "bread-count". After reading this thread, I loaded some of my previous Saves and although I was able to find one created in that game-area I was not able to reproduce the complication. Sorry.

Now YOU know all that I know I know...

To the above poster:

You're fine, most of my saves are between the 4MB and 6MB range, a couple getting upward of 7MB and they run fine.

I get occasional crashes/lockups, but I attribute that to just Oblivion being Oblivion (Morrowind does it too).


May I recommend two awesome things that when used in combination can REALLY help avoid losing precious gameplay time when Oblivion inevitably crashes.

The first is Safety Net, this autosaves your game every 3 minutes, unless you are in combat.

I've found it very useful.


The second is an external program Incremental Saver. It takes almost no memory to process, and what this does is automatically back-up and rename autosaves and quicksaves as they are overwritten up to a point, you can tell it how many backups you want to have before it goes back and starts overwriting again. I do 3 for quicksave and 3 for autosave.

That way you have a nice buffer zone where even if you do get a crash, you can load right back up and continue playing usually, with little to no loss of data.

9000 loaves on a companion means that you've got some sort of companion sharing problem.

Re: Incrementat Saver: Odd -- that ability is actually built into Oblivion, so you don't need an external program for it. See Backup Files.

Yes, but that scenario has more than a few variables. Could that particular bread placed, in a cave container by another mod, have been done so in an incorrect manner? Might the cave, itself, been modified in such a way that the bread or container might pass on an incorrect instruction?

I mean, Neeshka's inventory has been without any strangeness since then and in fact even now contains a single (non-replicating) loaf of bread, along with a few other (non-replicating) edibles and such.

BTW, you have my thanks for putting together the VERY helpful programs that you have made available to us all.

Oh, I didn't know that. Well, the nice thing about incremental saver is it saves right to an .ess, so I'll keep using it for now unless it gives me problems. I knew oblivion created 1 backup of the auto/quicksave, but did not know you could increase that.

Does Harvest Flora Lite cause save game bloating to or is it just the one that adds the harvest effect?

Vorwoda_the_Black mentioned that we should check if companion mods use a non-fixed version of Easy Companion Share, but how do we actually check such a thing? Is basing it on the file date and time sufficient?

The reason I ask is because it was stated that Ruined Tale (1.0) uses a safe version whereas Ariana Trudeaux uses an unsafe one. I have version 1.0 of Ruined (confirmed in the readme as using a fixed version) and 1.1 of Ariana, though I've not used either yet. The file date and time on Easy_Companion_Share.esm from both mods matches, as does a binary file compare of the two, so is 1.1 of Ariana safe?

Also, if a mod uses an unsafe version of ECS is it OK to simply replace Easy_Companion_Share.esm with the patched version, or will that break it? I'm assuming it would be OK since they all use the same ECS plugin with the same name, so it wouldn't be possible to have to different versions enabled at the same time anyway.

I have been using Neeshka for ages without any inventory problem.

Size; 10, 107 KB, Gametime; 58 hours

Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x480A2D61
Float: 141493.52

Array Sizes
60 Created Items
128621 Records
16475 FormIds

Created Items
40 ALCH
4 ARMO
10 ENCH
6 WEAP

FormIds
1203 Lost Refs (FormId == 0)
12766 Oblivion.esm
15 DA Run Fatigue.esm
454 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
935 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
33 Francesco's optional new creatures add-on.esm
48 AWS-Core.esm
67 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
1 KT_CustomRaceFix.esp
3 WPHealthRegen.esp
10 nmDLTIC-1-6.esp
1 VA_BetterGold.esp
1 Less Creepy Guild Porters.esp
14 Expanded Hotkeys and Spell Delete v1.0.esp
4 QuickWardrobe.esp
72 Gazerith's Spell Books V1.0.esp
5 GuilesHuntsmansLodge.esp
15 allinonebasement.esp
24 Reznod_Mannequin.esp
1 LoadingScreenQuotes.esp
1 Nords With Beards.esp
1 Real Lava v1.1.esp
7 SSEE.esp
2 Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
1 Quest Award Leveling.esp
20 TopalIsland.esp
9 CapesandCloaks.esp
2 RealisticFlora.esp
1 Francesco's optional leveled guards.esp
2 Francesco's optional chance of stronger bosses.esp
3 Charon's Call by Nicoroshi.esp
3 tda_WitchKingHelm.esp
1 RamSkullHelmet.esp
3 Defensive_staves_Basic.esp
12 AoC Dooms Armour Set.esp
6 BarbarianShop.esp
1 QTdof.esp
1 IshWeaponChargeToggle.esp
1 Slof's Horses Essential.esp
26 DLCHorseArmor.esp
698 Knights.esp
1 Knights Patch.esp
1 Mart's Monster Mod - Durability & Damage.esp

6 Faction
12 Oblivion.esm
1 Knights.esp
13 Total

19 Unknown
20 Oblivion.esm
20 Total

20 Armor
561 Oblivion.esm
42 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
465 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
10 Knights.esp
4 Save 607 - Rhaad Ironheart - The Great Forest, Level 25, Playing Time 57.59.36.ess
1082 Total

21 Book
212 Oblivion.esm
212 Total

22 Clothing
493 Oblivion.esm
1 Knights.esp
494 Total

27 Misc. Item
193 Oblivion.esm
193 Total

33 Weapon
848 Oblivion.esm
94 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
651 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
6 Save 607 - Rhaad Ironheart - The Great Forest, Level 25, Playing Time 57.59.36.ess
1599 Total

34 Unknown
57 Oblivion.esm
57 Total

35 NPC
1297 Oblivion.esm
352 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
1 Francesco's optional new creatures add-on.esm
558 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
1 Reznod_Mannequin.esp
74 Francesco's optional chance of stronger enemies.esp
39 Francesco's optional chance of stronger bosses.esp
36 Knights.esp
110 Mart's Monster Mod for Francescos.esp
2468 Total

36 Creature
65 Oblivion.esm
2 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
8 Francesco's optional new creatures add-on.esm
1 DLCHorseArmor.esp
1 Knights.esp
77 Total

38 Unknown
24 Oblivion.esm
24 Total

39 Key
4 Oblivion.esm
1 Knights.esp
5 Total

48 Cell
3768 Oblivion.esm
1 GuilesHuntsmansLodge.esp
4 allinonebasement.esp
14 Knights.esp
66 Save 607 - Rhaad Ironheart - The Great Forest, Level 25, Playing Time 57.59.36.ess
3853 Total

49 Object Ref
47446 Oblivion.esm
11 Expanded Hotkeys and Spell Delete v1.0.esp
2 QuickWardrobe.esp
12 Gazerith's Spell Books V1.0.esp
51 GuilesHuntsmansLodge.esp
142 allinonebasement.esp
5 Reznod_Mannequin.esp
2 Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
333 TopalIsland.esp
1 CapesandCloaks.esp
1 Charon's Call by Nicoroshi.esp
6 tda_WitchKingHelm.esp
6 AoC Dooms Armour Set.esp
1 QTdof.esp
10 DLCHorseArmor.esp
1729 Knights.esp
61166 Save 607 - Rhaad Ironheart - The Great Forest, Level 25, Playing Time 57.59.36.ess
110924 Total

50 NPC Ref
1571 Oblivion.esm
1 Expanded Hotkeys and Spell Delete v1.0.esp
5 Reznod_Mannequin.esp
1 TopalIsland.esp
1 Defensive_staves_Basic.esp
1 BarbarianShop.esp
55 Knights.esp
348 Save 607 - Rhaad Ironheart - The Great Forest, Level 25, Playing Time 57.59.36.ess
1983 Total

51 Creature Ref
555 Oblivion.esm
9 TopalIsland.esp
2 DLCHorseArmor.esp
56 Knights.esp
2283 Save 607 - Rhaad Ironheart - The Great Forest, Level 25, Playing Time 57.59.36.ess
2905 Total

58 Dialog Entry
1809 Oblivion.esm
3 KT_CustomRaceFix.esp
5 TopalIsland.esp
2 DLCHorseArmor.esp
252 Knights.esp
2071 Total

59 Quest
215 Oblivion.esm
3 DA Run Fatigue.esm
24 Francesco's leveled creatures-items mod.esm
359 Francesco's optional new items add-on.esm
3 AWS-Core.esm
1 WPHealthRegen.esp
1 nmDLTIC-1-6.esp
2 Expanded Hotkeys and Spell Delete v1.0.esp
1 QuickWardrobe.esp
5 allinonebasement.esp
1 Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
3 DA Sprint.esp
3 Quest Award Leveling.esp
1 TopalIsland.esp
1 QTdof.esp
1 IshWeaponChargeToggle.esp
2 DLCHorseArmor.esp
14 Knights.esp
640 Total

61 AI Package
1 Knights.esp
1 Total


Currently I'm not experiencing any crashing while saving. I've been using Realistic Flora instead of Harvest Flora for about 5 hours and I am no longer using Deadly Reflex, I know the consensus is that it's not a major contributor to bloating, but for me if I use that mod for 4 or 5 hours my game starts to crash while saving like I described earlier in this thread. I am still using the longer respawning option from Fran's.

Other weirdness most likely unrelated to savegame bloating, is that none of the Daedric Shrine quests are working, a small part of my desktop wallpaper is flashing momentarily in the lower right portion of my screen and that the game has completely locked up 3 times- requiring me to hit the reset button on my pc - since I installed Qarl's texture pack 3.

Awesome info, man! Thanks so much for that.



Yeah, I think the biggest problem here is that the original bugged version of Reznod is still out there and andyw's fix isn't widely known, so unless the companion mod author sees this thread he or she isn't likely to know about it.

I would actually like to know who is actually haveing this problem? because it seems like there is virtually no mod out there that will do this? Maybe would could have some sort of official consensus list of the mods that cause bloat?

is this a real or phantom problem?

After getting rid of some old companions and mods my load times got much better even though my saves aren't that big, just 3,5 MB. Good to know there are new code that is much safer now.

Check you version of Rezond_Mannequin..

Make sure that you have the fix that is posted in this thread somewhere for that..

i dont see a link for the reznod mannequin fix anywhere on this thread?? am I going blind?

Dev_Akm can you post a link to andyw's fix for Reznod....

That would help..The thread talk about but does not post it or list anywhere..

I have version 3.0 the most update version on TES anyway. The update history in the readme doesnt say anything about save game bloating or a fix by andyw. This mod looks to have a Rezond Companion Share esm merged with andyw's fix,

lupo.fangs - Companions Hun'la and...

Best I could find at any rate. I have another save game, thats 30 hours longer and 3 times smaller then the save game whoose's statistics I posted, where I make much more extensive use of the mannequins, so I dont think that mod is creating much of a problem.

Something seems wrong with the size of your savegame compared to the data in that statistics report. Having a savegame that's more than 10Mb after only 58 hours of play seems very extreme to me. It also seems extreme given the very small counts for most things. Perhaps there's something going on there that the statistics report isn't revealing.



I had the problem because I was using both Ariana Trudeaux and the old version of Ruined Tail. Now I've ditched Ariana Trudeaux and updated to the most recent version of Ruined Tail (1.x) and all is well (after Wrye rescued my savegame).



That's my point exactly. It's not a published fix. You have to go dig it out of Ruined Tail or one of the other mods that has it. See my response to Vorwoda_the_Black above.

Dev_Akm, Vorism

It may be QuickWardrobe. that is causing the bloating..

their are additem and unequip in the script ..perhaps..someone else need to check..

Wrye Bash 0.49: More savegame statistics Download from: Wrye Musings
Looking over statistics that have been posted, they've seemed a little to a lotta high in objectrefs belonging to the savegame. (E.g., Vorism's 61k seems pretty high.) So new bash gives a little more analysis on this. For more info, see: Wrye Bash: Savegame Statistics, in particular the last section on "New ObjectRef Bases".

To give you a feel for output, here's mine:

The three baseids are three variants of the combat torches from OOO. (Modindex 12 == OOO for this savegame.) Shown for each item is the cumulative kb used for each baseid. Obviously not a problem here, through ideally scripting would be such that torch references would not stick around forever.

lyobovnik and vorism, I just pm'ed you to send me a savegame, but please get and try this first.

Works well, just found another cause of bloating (or rather, confirmed my suspicions on this one)

Take a look at this:



Note the 3rd line from the bottom? That's almost 2 MB right there. That's the "Get Wet" mod.. and I HAVE noticed markers dropping from that mod every now and then and appearing on-screen, so this is definately a problem and will only get worse.

On that note, someone should really re-code this mod so that it doesn't exhibit this problem, as "Get Wet" is an excellent mod.

The 2 final lines are both from Deadly reflex, once again, even though it's a fairly large number of items it doesn't seem to cause much of a bloat (at least not when compared to something like Get Wet).

I'm going to try removing Get wet and seeing if this goes away.


EDIT - obviously, this isn't the complete statistics, this save is about 7.5MB in size, I just copied the new part to show Wrye that it was working and to identify a "problem" mod.

EDIT2 - Nope, "Get Wet" is definately a "big problem" mod. I tried removing the mod and re-saving, still bloated from it.

Observe:

(This is AFTER removing Get Wet)



Notice the block is still there, only now it's FormID is 00000000... this I suppose indicates something that was removed from the savegame and is no longer referenced, but is still there. Proving that we need a tool to "clean" these junk references. At least anything with a formID of 00000000 should be gotten rid of as it's DEFINATELY garbage.

Removing "Get Wet"... That's the behavior I expect -- that will happen anytime that you remove a mod. Savegame stucture is a bit complicated, but for much of the internal structure, reference to formids is not done directly but rather through an iref. The iref is just an index into a table of formids. When you remove a mod, the iref stays, as do the various records that refer to it, but the formid in the formids table gets set to zero.

As someone else mentioned earlier (and it was news to me), object refs become permanent when a script refers to them. Without that permanance, I think that they would be garbage collected after 3 days. But with the permance, I think that the game keeps them around to avoid breaking the script that refers to them.

Cleaning of these types of refs from dev_akm's game seemed to not cause problems, but keep in mind that this sort of surgery may indeed cause obscure corruption of the game. Hopefully not, but anyway, here you go...

This is a cut down version of the command line script that I used to clean dev_akm's game. For his game, I removed quite a bit of other stuff, but this version should only remove the "Null ObjectRefs". Usage:
* Open bish.py in a text editor, and scroll to the bottom.
* Then, just above the "# Main---" line, past the following code in.
* Save changes to the bish.py, then open a command shell and chdir to the Mopy directory.
* type: python bish.py cleanNullRefs "Name of save file"
* Hint: You may want to rename the savegame to something short in bash to make it easier to type in.
* Hint: Backups are good. I was pretty surprised that this didn't corrupt dev's game. You've been warned!

Thanks Wrye, I'll give that a try tomorrow as I think it should be pretty safe to use on my game. If we can narrow this down and get specific data knocked out of the savegames that is no longer being referenced it'll be great, I mean, the way I see it, all of these 00000000 references could in theory be removed, as nothing uses them anymore and they are from no-longer active plugins/masters.

At least that's how I understand it.

I asked Thorskin for some clarification on persistance and script references in another thread. I believe he meant that references in quest scripts are made persistent, not all scripts. That wasn't immediately clear to me, at least.

Hmm... Well more research is probably needed.

I've been looking over the combat torches (see my dump above). Looking at these, it seems that these are never being garbage collected. It's notable that:
188 12003DEB torch04: Nothing refers to it, but its script has a ref to a torch03.
186 12051331 torch03: Referred to by torch04 script, has a ref variable to a torch04light.
348 1200341C torch02light: No script. Referred to by torch03 script.

So, presence of torch02light, indicates that torches with no scripts that are only being referred to by other object scripts (not quest scripts) are not being garbage collected. So, looks like Thorskin's clarification is incorrect -- his original statement was right.

It's notable that there are roughly only half as many torch03's as torch02lights. It may be that what is happening is:
* About half the time I'm recovering dropped torches. That seems about right.
* The retrieved torch is a torch03, which subsequently is removed and thus garbage collected.
* That frees torch04 to be garbage collected.
* But that should allow the lights to be garbage collected too in equal numbers??
Hmm... Don't know.

Anyway, adventurous souls should be able to tweak the script I posted above to follow lifecycle of torches (or other objects) with some experiments.

First, the code above may be wrong, but may work anyway. The flag test should probably be "flags & 2" instead of "flags & 1". But I think that "1" may actually be the flag for object persistence so it works anyway. Maybe.

Knocking things around a bit more... I double checked what happens to formid when you pick an object up, put it into inventory and then dropped it again. Objects that were directly placed in the world by mods seem to have persistent formid. However, objects created on the fly (e.g., arrows, books, loot items, etc.) seem to not have persisten ids. E.g., get them drop, check their formids, pick them up and drop them again -- new formids. However, I suspect that if the item has been flagged to persist (e.g., because its reference is used by a script), then its formid will persist (I'm guessing here).

I've been following this topic with great interest. The save file for my current character has crept to nearly 9meg. 2meg of that is from these leftover items so I decided to give Wrye's new "cleanNullRefs" module a shot. Here is the relevant data:

Before cleaning:

Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x4848A6F8
Float: 205467.88

Array Sizes
10339 Created Items
108460 Records
20389 FormIds

Created Items
75 ALCH
80 APPA
788 INGR
5564 KEYM
601 LIGH
3228 MISC
3 WEAP
.
.
.

New ObjectRef Bases
Null Bases: 26871
Count IRef BaseId
568 000010FA 5800341C 28 kb
308 000010FB 58000CE7 16 kb
312 000010FC 58003DEB 21 kb
485 00001A64 00000000 26 kb
1439 00001A65 00000000 78 kb
1175 00001A66 00000000 64 kb
107 000020E4 00000000 5 kb
219 00002414 00000000 11 kb
465 0000243C 00000000 25 kb
1116 000024BD 00000000 61 kb
107 000024C6 00000000 5 kb
209 000024CE 00000000 11 kb
194 000026D9 03002099 10 kb
175 000026DB 03002095 9 kb
178 00002ADD 00000000 9 kb
20031 00002BCC 00000000 1388 kb
690 0000404A 00000000 41 kb



After Cleaning:

Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x4847A3C1
Float: 204431.02

Array Sizes
10217 Created Items
80489 Records
20300 FormIds

Created Items
73 ALCH
80 APPA
786 INGR
5484 KEYM
597 LIGH
3194 MISC
3 WEAP
.
.
.

New ObjectRef Bases
Count IRef BaseId
568 000010FA 5800341C 28 kb
308 000010FB 58000CE7 16 kb
312 000010FC 58003DEB 21 kb
190 000026D9 03002099 10 kb
175 000026DB 03002095 9 kb

The save file dropped from 8954kb to 7178kb. More importantly, the cleaned save game loads just fine. That is a very handy piece of coding Wrye, thank you!

One question to the group, why do I have this in my stats output:

39 Key
13 Oblivion.esm
1 P1DkeyChain.esp
5484 Save 156 - Raven Nightblade - The Great Forest, Level 17, Playing Time 164.12.56.ess
5498 Total

This seems to indicate that my save game has over 5000 keys. Is this a problem with the P1DKeyChain mod? I believe this is the only mod I have ever run that would affect the keys my character carries.

Chris

Yep. That's bloating -- almost certainly you've got a companion with the companion share bloating bug. You'll need to update him/her. ALCH can be high if you're an alchemist, but everything else should be low. E.g. appa -- there's only about 6 APPA actually defined by oblivion. There should hardly be any keys (maybe just a few from your statue -- instead you have 5000.

So, first thing to do is fix your companion share to keep bloating from growing. After that, post your savegame somewhere that I can access it (putfile or something). I'll see what I can do -- may take a while though.

As for the keys, they're just showing up in two places -- first as created items, and then as a changerecord item. (Dev had similar problem with his created weapon.)

Hm....I use the keychain mod as well, but it causes such a delay when I open up my inventory that I've considered disabling it. My savegame is now 10+ MB and I am only 50 hours into the game. Hm...

Well, more good news for you Wrye.

I just ran the bish script you gave me on my savegame that was bloating heavily (2mb worth) from "Get Wet". (I had the mod unchecked and had loaded the save without it first, this is important as if you don't do this Bish won't see it as a "Null Ref" - just a tip for anyone who might try this themselves)


Anyways,

Before:



File size: 7,212KB


AFTER:




New file size: 4,371KB!

Woot, almost 3 MB snipped out from null references.

And the savegame works just fine! I haven't fully tested it, but it did load, so that's good.

I think this is a pretty sure-fire method of snipping out stuff in a savegame, at least stuff from mods you no longer use. Of course, if the mod is still loaded it won't get rid of it, and hence not get rid of the bloat.

Of course, this doesn't change companion bloat, or the fact these mods cause it in the first place.

Ideally, it still would be nice to be able to snip out selected items from a save using bash (in a gui that is). If we could go in and modify formIDs and their values (like you did with enchantment names) then we COULD in theory have a fully-functional save editor. Which would be nice.

Harvest [Flora] can cause bloat... Tho using the LITE version cannot cause any bloat.

The most extreme bloat ever recorded was 1.5 megs over Vanilla.
Most users will never see this kinda bloat...

Other MODs, can easily cause bloat...
Harvest [Flora] was purposely designed to use the function "PlaceAtMe" and not abuse it.
-Dejunai

Thank you for the offer Wrye. I appreciate that you would be willing to do that. But I can't impose on you to fix my save game file. Based on previous posts in this thread I am certain I had a companion with the bloat problem (I ran Ariana for a while). I have long since done away with that mod and this evening I verified I am using the fixed companion share mod (I am using the one from Ruined Tail's Tale v1.0) Am I correct in thinking that this should stop the bloat from getting worse than it currently is?

If so, then I will live with it as is since the only noticeable problem is a larger than normal save file. If you ever release a tool to repair this problem I will of course clean up the file myself.

Again, thanks for all the work you have put into Wrye Bash!

Chris

doesnt seem like 1.5 megs is much of a bloat? I thought people were getting over 15mbs and such.

Just did some testing, using PlaceAtMe on creatures/npcs or a creature/npc level list is safe, the game will clean them away the next time the area resets even if they are referenced in a script, set to respawn or disabled.

Edit: oops I was wrong, I was using ResetInterior thinking it was pretty much the same as the standard time delay reset, it isn't.

Part of the reason he's asking is so that more tests can be run so that a tool CAN be developed. Access to another savegame with bloat will allow Wrye to run more tests and possibly write more effecient code.

Ok, at Buddah's kind request I've posted my fix for Reznod's Easy Companion Share at http://tessource.net/files/file.php?id=9347

The 'companion fix.esp' should load after Easy_Companion_Share.esm, but before any companion mods (which may or may not have their own versions of the script in question).

I'm afraid that, as this is a very complicated issue, and I have little spare time, I can't guarantee to support this. And the fix doesn't (of course) actually fix any existing bloating - it just prevents one specific cause (scripted items given to Reznod companions) from causing any further bloat.

Fantastic! Thanks so much for that!

What known mods can cause this bloating?

Yes thanks again, was asked for a couple of times and I could never find it.

Hats off to you Andyw, you are wonderful ! ! !

Buddah

so then is disabling npcs and creatures created through placeatme ok after all, or does it still bloat the save?

Woohoo!

Thanks, Wrye. The new Bash version (with the bish modification you posted) has cut my savegame file down quite a lot!

Previous: 11,630 KB
Current: 8,843 KB

You've always been such a help to me. Thanks again.

EDIT:
I should add that the file seems to load & play just fine.

we need a list of mods that could cause the bloat issue.

Good to know!

Mine (mod) could, so I'd like to know what the standard growth of a savegame is over a hundred hours of play to make sure. And also if this is changed by large 3rd person mods like frans and MMM.

I totally agree - can we please try to get a list of mods that cause this (modname - version number) ?

Also, do we have a definitive answer on whether P1Keychain causes bloating? I love using it but will not if this is the case...

Finally, is the reznod_mannequin 3.0 mod safe? once again, great mod but will be dumped if it causes bloating...

This is *not* a definitive answer -- it's not like I really understand this -- but on Reznod's:

We use this mod extensively, about 30+ mannequins in a house. One game, just ended, around 200 hours of play, just over 4.31 mb. So it looks to me like it's ok.

so then about 2 mg for hundred hours is what you got. That looks good, as For my save's average is between 1.5 and 3, and I have about 20 different characters to measure this on.

So should we change it to 2 instead of 1?

I think that either works. However, next version of Bash will change it to 2 since that's more correct.

I've just updated Wrye Bash to version 0.50, and moved the null ref cleaning from the command line to the GUI. For more info, see Wrye Bash: Remove Null Refs. Note that while people have had good results so far, I'm still wary of this command - use with caution.

There are also a few more tweaks besides this feature, most notably a feature to import TNR (Tamriel NPCs Revamped) faces into other mods. For more info, see [RELZ] Wrye Bash #3 topic.

So I'm curious, does anyone know if the Adventurers mod causes bloating?
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.p...=527258&hl=

Other mods that I'm curious about are:
---alivewaters_no fish
---Natural History Museum
---Initial Glow All
---The Unofficial Oblivion Patch
---Salmo the Baker (or other added NPC mods)
---The Bank of Cyrodill
---phinix-waterfix
---Update my statue
---nmdltic-1-6 (dropped lit torches)

These mods each add a great deal of immersion to the game and I really hope they don't cause this bloating problem. I recently created a new character and all I've done is completed the Thieves guild quests and I just barely finished liberating Kvatch. My save game is already at 4.5 MB.

Craftybits, being extremely intensive on item-creation, is likely to cause bloating.

With the newest version coming out, I move all unneeded objects to a special junkyard cell. This should make cleaning it much easier - just delete every reference in the cell. Right?

I used the Remove Null Refs utility on my 15 MB save and trimmed it to ~13.7 MB. So far I haven't encountered any problems in playing the trimmed file. If you could suggest any additional measures to reduce my still-bloated file I could post its stats or send the actual file if that would be better.

You really don't have anything to worry about. The vast majority of mods have no issues with bloating.

The only one in your list that might have very, very minor bloat AFAICT is drop lit torches, but only if you drop a lot of torches and never pick them up again -- really no different than leaving a weapon or some armor lying around.

Thanks for the reply. I think the bloating that I recently experienced was probably due to the Get Wet and key chain mods. I hadn't realized that they caused bloating before now (I'm sad about losing the get wet mod. I loved it!). I have removed them from my mod list but will doing so remove the bloating problem?

Also, do mods that add items to an NPCs inventory cause bloating? For example, I like Havok's drink fix (it adds more drinks to merchant's inventories) and another mod that adds more normal clothes to merchant's inventory (not new clothes created by the modder, just more of the game's normal clothing). Would mods such as this cause bloating or do I have to actually purchase the items and then drop them all over the floor to cause it?

this has been a very interesting read.

i am at about 200 hrs with my current character, and his saves are at 3.5MB

guess the mods i am using are pretty good about not causing bloat!

here, i'll post a list of them some they can be scratched off the potential bloat-causing list:

After 2 uses of Wrye Bash's null refs removal utility my save was reduced from ~15 MB to 12.8 MB. Are there other ways to trim it more, short of disabling many of the mods? Here are the stats from the latest save after the second null refs removal:
Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x4757C3E8
Float: 55235.91

Array Sizes
2226 Created Items
200955 Records
53652 FormIds

Created Items
904 ALCH
96 ARMO
12 CLOT
149 ENCH
955 KEYM
1 NPC_
67 SPEL
42 WEAP

FormIds
8500 Lost Refs (FormId == 0)
24187 Oblivion.esm
715 Silgrad_Tower.esm
28 ArmoryLab.esm
20 bookplacing.esm
149 Cobl Main.esm
10 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
9 IngredientJars.esm
231 Qarls_Harvest.esm
14 TamrielTravellers.esm
1 Jog_X_Mod.esm
900 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
42 CM Partners.esm
31 xuldarkforest.esp
128 Comp_Cecilia.esp
27 Beneath The Wall.esp
32 Cobl Glue MW Ingred.esp
13 WoodNymph.esp
14 xulStendarrValley.esp
31 xulAncientRedwoods.esp
2 Book Placement v2.esp
7 Forgrum's Travelogue.esp
13 CallSteed3.0a.esp
1 teleport ring Frostcrag.esp
13 Ivy Cottage.esp
37 Jason1_Pirate Ship.esp
11 Pine Lodge.esp
40 Lenawiln_Cottagev2.11.esp
2 Unlimited Amulets 1.0.esp
121 DLCFrostcrag.esp
34 DLCOrrery.esp
33 Frostcrag Addon.esp
5 The Wizard's Tower Recall.esp
185 JolardHome.esp
194 SentientWeapon.esp
124 GP_Moretta.esp
9 gardening.esp
75 DJ Markov Manor.esp
102 Lakewood Village Ver 2.0.esp
72 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
2 HouseMapMarkersOnlyBought.esp
23 Mountaintop Ranch.esp
299 VeronaHouse120.esp
64 Toaster Says Share.esp
5 ArmoryLab-portals.esp
41 ArmoryLab-manikins.esp
1 ArmoryLab-greenhouse.esp
2 ArmoryLab-cloth-displays.esp
35 mythsandlegends.esp
98 Pimea_Necromancers_lair.esp
866 bartholm.esp
111 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
9 P1DkeyChain.esp
58 prettyEnh.esp
553 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
32 TempleofNirn.esp
29 Septim Mansion.esp
9 DecoratorAssistant with OBSE v1.1.esp
82 MyMountainTower.esp
42 300_Artifacts.esp
188 exhunter_edengarden.esp
212 Villages1.1.esp
299 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
120 NakedNord.esp
120 Castle_Veyond.esp
32 Buddah Mansion.esp
133 ExnemRuneskulls.esp
344 thievery.esp
182 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
77 eyja.esp
88 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
291 Rumare Castle.esp
1023 Damarask.esp
1 Border Removal.esp
61 Lair of the Hydra.esp
88 2.0 Final-Blackrock Mountain.esp
56 WOTFH_1.1.esp
120 Museum.esp
17 Friendly Fire.esp
1 M.O.E. - Levitation Magic.esp
1104 NorthernBorderFort.esp
42 M.O.E. - Teleportation Magic and Icarian Flight.esp
13 Damsels_In_Distress.esp
392 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
122 Gift of Kynareth.esp
147 RavenviewVillageVer2.0.esp
132 Well Thief v 1.1.esp
612 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
79 BlackRockManorV11.esp
22 Armor of the Dark Lord.esp
1 Silgrad_Tower_Portal.esp
126 Champion's Mansion.esp
52 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
77 White Tower v0.8.esp
123 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
89 Luxury Companion Tent.esp
259 OldCrowInn.esp
484 GlenvarCastle.esp
383 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
86 CompleteMagePack.esp
19 AliveWaters.esp
2 dhsRTentwithSorter.esp
34 Wizard-Elemental-Pack-201.esp
8 Whitmond Farm Upgrade.esp
44 Companion Neeshka.esp
104 Morrowind Ingredients_MMM.esp
114 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
59 2.6-The Tower of the Lich King.esp
3 Ayleid Home.esp
55 Emeraldsvale_01c.esp
2 Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
30 Wizards Air Base.esp
11 AyleidFiringa.esp
794 KumikoManor.esp
2 Growlfs Hot Clothes.esp
282 COR-Episode1 Secret of Enourk.esp
8 CM Partners NPC.esp
12 Sunken Fortress.esp
298 Quest For The Elements.esp
11 RobbersAlchemists Shack AKA -RAS.esp
4 Dragonbone Cuirass.esp
162 DibellaTemple.esp
28 Aqvatika.esp
1 Arrius Estate-1.1.esp
67 Pirates Grave.esp
12 Sousmarin_manor.esp
183 Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp
56 Aurelion1.esp
4 RealisticFlora.esp
1450 DremoraCompanion.esp
42 Nascosto Isles.esp
247 Castle_Highrock.esp
648 VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
18 farbridge manor.esp
4 Personal Portable Paradise.esp
19 Home.esp
52 Abecean_lighthouse.esp
143 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
23 Black Markets.esp
91 delivery_job.esp
8 Rhianna.esp
1 Honeysuckle Farm.esp
285 Valley_View_Estate.esp
142 RGA-ESHouse.esp
8 Bag of Holding.esp
1 Mart's Monster Mod - Friendlier Factions.esp
96 Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
653 TamrielTravellers4MMM.esp
45 Drekin's Keep 2.4.esp
149 Druids Guild Mod.esp
15 Ingredient Storage Shelves.esp
22 The Black Cat Jewelry Store - Daedric Statues.esp
297 300_White Stallion.esp
460 Falkreath.esp
1 Missing Master 0xc3

6 Faction
50 Oblivion.esm
3 bartholm.esp
1 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
1 Damarask.esp
1 Friendly Fire.esp
1 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
5 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
62 Total

20 Armor
18 Oblivion.esm
96 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
114 Total

21 Book
154 Oblivion.esm
5 DLCFrostcrag.esp
2 DLCOrrery.esp
1 JolardHome.esp
1 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
1 Toaster Says Share.esp
10 bartholm.esp
16 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
1 Emeraldsvale_01c.esp
5 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
196 Total

22 Clothing
18 Oblivion.esm
1 thievery.esp
12 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
31 Total

25 Unknown
2 Oblivion.esm
2 Total

27 Misc. Item
5 Oblivion.esm
1 Bag of Holding.esp
6 Total

33 Weapon
14 Oblivion.esm
42 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
56 Total

34 Unknown
1 Oblivion.esm
1 Total

35 NPC
1288 Oblivion.esm
10 Silgrad_Tower.esm
72 TamrielTravellers.esm
565 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
8 CM Partners.esm
43 Comp_Cecilia.esp
1 Lenawiln_Cottagev2.11.esp
5 DLCOrrery.esp
9 JolardHome.esp
5 SentientWeapon.esp
4 GP_Moretta.esp
1 DJ Markov Manor.esp
1 Lakewood Village Ver 2.0.esp
9 VeronaHouse120.esp
5 Toaster Says Share.esp
2 ArmoryLab-manikins.esp
1 Pimea_Necromancers_lair.esp
98 bartholm.esp
2 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
1 prettyEnh.esp
96 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
1 300_Artifacts.esp
7 exhunter_edengarden.esp
13 Villages1.1.esp
3 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
14 NakedNord.esp
10 Castle_Veyond.esp
7 thievery.esp
1 eyja.esp
7 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
9 Rumare Castle.esp
2 Damarask.esp
7 Lair of the Hydra.esp
16 2.0 Final-Blackrock Mountain.esp
1 Friendly Fire.esp
48 NorthernBorderFort.esp
1 Damsels_In_Distress.esp
26 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
4 Gift of Kynareth.esp
1 RavenviewVillageVer2.0.esp
2 Well Thief v 1.1.esp
47 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
2 Champion's Mansion.esp
1 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
3 White Tower v0.8.esp
2 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
7 OldCrowInn.esp
11 GlenvarCastle.esp
8 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
1 Companion Neeshka.esp
9 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
1 2.6-The Tower of the Lich King.esp
8 KumikoManor.esp
1 COR-Episode1 Secret of Enourk.esp
2 Quest For The Elements.esp
8 DibellaTemple.esp
88 DremoraCompanion.esp
2 Nascosto Isles.esp
26 Castle_Highrock.esp
22 VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
24 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
1 Rhianna.esp
10 Valley_View_Estate.esp
19 RGA-ESHouse.esp
26 Druids Guild Mod.esp
28 300_White Stallion.esp
50 Falkreath.esp
1 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
2814 Total

36 Creature
22 Oblivion.esm
1 Mart's Monster Mod.esm
2 xuldarkforest.esp
1 xulAncientRedwoods.esp
3 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
10 2.6-The Tower of the Lich King.esp
2 KumikoManor.esp
1 DremoraCompanion.esp
20 RGA-ESHouse.esp
62 Total

38 Unknown
1 Oblivion.esm
1 Total

39 Key
41 Oblivion.esm
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 P1DkeyChain.esp
955 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
998 Total

48 Cell
7887 Oblivion.esm
232 Silgrad_Tower.esm
6 ArmoryLab.esm
2 Comp_Cecilia.esp
1 Beneath The Wall.esp
2 Ivy Cottage.esp
3 Jason1_Pirate Ship.esp
2 Pine Lodge.esp
2 Lenawiln_Cottagev2.11.esp
4 Frostcrag Addon.esp
7 JolardHome.esp
2 SentientWeapon.esp
4 GP_Moretta.esp
2 DJ Markov Manor.esp
12 Lakewood Village Ver 2.0.esp
1 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
1 Mountaintop Ranch.esp
16 VeronaHouse120.esp
4 Pimea_Necromancers_lair.esp
105 bartholm.esp
7 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
171 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
1 TempleofNirn.esp
3 Septim Mansion.esp
5 MyMountainTower.esp
3 exhunter_edengarden.esp
4 Villages1.1.esp
10 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
2 NakedNord.esp
4 Buddah Mansion.esp
10 thievery.esp
10 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
7 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
8 Rumare Castle.esp
88 Damarask.esp
3 Lair of the Hydra.esp
3 2.0 Final-Blackrock Mountain.esp
4 Museum.esp
26 NorthernBorderFort.esp
6 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
2 Gift of Kynareth.esp
23 RavenviewVillageVer2.0.esp
28 Well Thief v 1.1.esp
52 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
3 BlackRockManorV11.esp
2 Armor of the Dark Lord.esp
57 Champion's Mansion.esp
2 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
8 White Tower v0.8.esp
7 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
1 Luxury Companion Tent.esp
15 OldCrowInn.esp
31 GlenvarCastle.esp
12 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
1 CompleteMagePack.esp
1 Whitmond Farm Upgrade.esp
7 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
6 2.6-The Tower of the Lich King.esp
15 Emeraldsvale_01c.esp
3 Wizards Air Base.esp
17 KumikoManor.esp
7 COR-Episode1 Secret of Enourk.esp
1 Sunken Fortress.esp
19 Quest For The Elements.esp
1 RobbersAlchemists Shack AKA -RAS.esp
11 DibellaTemple.esp
1 Aqvatika.esp
7 Pirates Grave.esp
7 Sousmarin_manor.esp
32 Aurelion1.esp
403 DremoraCompanion.esp
15 Castle_Highrock.esp
8 VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
6 farbridge manor.esp
1 Home.esp
5 Abecean_lighthouse.esp
8 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
5 delivery_job.esp
5 Valley_View_Estate.esp
10 RGA-ESHouse.esp
1 Drekin's Keep 2.4.esp
5 Druids Guild Mod.esp
1 The Black Cat Jewelry Store - Daedric Statues.esp
10 300_White Stallion.esp
19 Falkreath.esp
1559 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
11110 Total

49 Object Ref
109643 Oblivion.esm
3326 Silgrad_Tower.esm
299 ArmoryLab.esm
2 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
213 Qarls_Harvest.esm
64 TamrielTravellers.esm
365 xuldarkforest.esp
407 Comp_Cecilia.esp
75 Beneath The Wall.esp
48 Landmarks, w Wells.esp
6 Cobl Glue.esp
56 Cobl Glue MW Ingred.esp
1 WoodNymph.esp
33 xulStendarrValley.esp
399 xulAncientRedwoods.esp
4 Forgrum's Travelogue.esp
1 teleport ring Frostcrag.esp
99 Ivy Cottage.esp
97 Jason1_Pirate Ship.esp
66 Pine Lodge.esp
192 Lenawiln_Cottagev2.11.esp
689 DLCFrostcrag.esp
21 DLCOrrery.esp
40 Frostcrag Addon.esp
1 The Wizard's Tower Recall.esp
231 JolardHome.esp
133 SentientWeapon.esp
155 GP_Moretta.esp
171 DJ Markov Manor.esp
403 Lakewood Village Ver 2.0.esp
57 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
8 HouseMapMarkersOnlyBought.esp
130 Mountaintop Ranch.esp
1282 VeronaHouse120.esp
2 Toaster Says Share.esp
18 ArmoryLab-portals.esp
8 ArmoryLab-manikins.esp
4 ArmoryLab-greenhouse.esp
14 ArmoryLab-cloth-displays.esp
44 mythsandlegends.esp
309 Pimea_Necromancers_lair.esp
1860 bartholm.esp
767 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
1713 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
120 TempleofNirn.esp
325 Septim Mansion.esp
2 DecoratorAssistant with OBSE v1.1.esp
153 MyMountainTower.esp
42 300_Artifacts.esp
1057 exhunter_edengarden.esp
595 Villages1.1.esp
326 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
209 NakedNord.esp
259 Castle_Veyond.esp
261 Buddah Mansion.esp
513 thievery.esp
750 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
34 eyja.esp
280 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
964 Rumare Castle.esp
1638 Damarask.esp
151 Lair of the Hydra.esp
176 2.0 Final-Blackrock Mountain.esp
20 WOTFH_1.1.esp
166 Museum.esp
1 Friendly Fire.esp
1560 NorthernBorderFort.esp
9 Damsels_In_Distress.esp
751 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
92 Gift of Kynareth.esp
768 RavenviewVillageVer2.0.esp
178 Well Thief v 1.1.esp
1770 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
282 BlackRockManorV11.esp
94 Armor of the Dark Lord.esp
3 Silgrad_Tower_Portal.esp
1046 Champion's Mansion.esp
49 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
355 White Tower v0.8.esp
731 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
107 Luxury Companion Tent.esp
717 OldCrowInn.esp
2243 GlenvarCastle.esp
977 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
47 CompleteMagePack.esp
1088 AliveWaters.esp
1 dhsRTentwithSorter.esp
4 Wizard-Elemental-Pack-201.esp
129 Whitmond Farm Upgrade.esp
7 Companion Neeshka.esp
56 Morrowind Ingredients_MMM.esp
425 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
160 2.6-The Tower of the Lich King.esp
183 Ayleid Home.esp
261 Emeraldsvale_01c.esp
2 Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
42 Wizards Air Base.esp
6 AyleidFiringa.esp
2109 KumikoManor.esp
214 COR-Episode1 Secret of Enourk.esp
1 CM Partners.esp
116 Sunken Fortress.esp
502 Quest For The Elements.esp
37 RobbersAlchemists Shack AKA -RAS.esp
1818 DibellaTemple.esp
219 Aqvatika.esp
201 Arrius Estate-1.1.esp
184 Pirates Grave.esp
155 Sousmarin_manor.esp
144 Aurelion1.esp
4978 DremoraCompanion.esp
389 Nascosto Isles.esp
863 Castle_Highrock.esp
1102 VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
250 farbridge manor.esp
26 Personal Portable Paradise.esp
163 Home.esp
206 Abecean_lighthouse.esp
62 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
11 Black Markets.esp
446 delivery_job.esp
28 Honeysuckle Farm.esp
509 Valley_View_Estate.esp
296 RGA-ESHouse.esp
3 Bag of Holding.esp
9 Mart's Monster Mod - Gems & Gem Dust.esp
499 Mart's Monster Mod - More Wilderness Life.esp
87 TamrielTravellers4MMM.esp
65 Drekin's Keep 2.4.esp
152 Druids Guild Mod.esp
7 Ingredient Storage Shelves.esp
221 The Black Cat Jewelry Store - Daedric Statues.esp
947 300_White Stallion.esp
1098 Falkreath.esp
5808 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
169566 Total

50 NPC Ref
1627 Oblivion.esm
111 Silgrad_Tower.esm
43 Comp_Cecilia.esp
6 Beneath The Wall.esp
1 xulStendarrValley.esp
1 xulAncientRedwoods.esp
1 Lenawiln_Cottagev2.11.esp
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
5 DLCOrrery.esp
14 JolardHome.esp
45 SentientWeapon.esp
4 GP_Moretta.esp
1 DJ Markov Manor.esp
9 Lakewood Village Ver 2.0.esp
1 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
1 Mountaintop Ranch.esp
23 VeronaHouse120.esp
4 Toaster Says Share.esp
21 ArmoryLab-manikins.esp
1 mythsandlegends.esp
8 Pimea_Necromancers_lair.esp
92 bartholm.esp
2 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
1 prettyEnh.esp
162 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
1 Septim Mansion.esp
11 300_Artifacts.esp
9 exhunter_edengarden.esp
38 Villages1.1.esp
9 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
40 NakedNord.esp
17 Castle_Veyond.esp
22 Buddah Mansion.esp
9 thievery.esp
3 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
1 eyja.esp
7 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
10 Rumare Castle.esp
239 Damarask.esp
1 WOTFH_1.1.esp
12 Museum.esp
1 Friendly Fire.esp
145 NorthernBorderFort.esp
1 Damsels_In_Distress.esp
26 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
1 Gift of Kynareth.esp
25 RavenviewVillageVer2.0.esp
90 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
1 BlackRockManorV11.esp
4 Champion's Mansion.esp
4 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
6 White Tower v0.8.esp
2 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
7 OldCrowInn.esp
23 GlenvarCastle.esp
1 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
32 CompleteMagePack.esp
2 Wizard-Elemental-Pack-201.esp
1 Companion Neeshka.esp
10 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
6 Emeraldsvale_01c.esp
21 KumikoManor.esp
61 COR-Episode1 Secret of Enourk.esp
8 CM Partners NPC.esp
5 Quest For The Elements.esp
2 RobbersAlchemists Shack AKA -RAS.esp
1 Dragonbone Cuirass.esp
15 DibellaTemple.esp
1 Aqvatika.esp
228 Mart's Monster Mod - City Defences.esp
10 Aurelion1.esp
137 DremoraCompanion.esp
5 Nascosto Isles.esp
30 Castle_Highrock.esp
22 VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
1 Home.esp
33 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
25 Black Markets.esp
10 delivery_job.esp
1 Rhianna.esp
12 Valley_View_Estate.esp
21 RGA-ESHouse.esp
72 TamrielTravellers4MMM.esp
23 Drekin's Keep 2.4.esp
28 Druids Guild Mod.esp
2 The Black Cat Jewelry Store - Daedric Statues.esp
36 300_White Stallion.esp
80 Falkreath.esp
415 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
4307 Total

51 Creature Ref
963 Oblivion.esm
56 Silgrad_Tower.esm
23 xuldarkforest.esp
54 Comp_Cecilia.esp
4 WoodNymph.esp
9 xulStendarrValley.esp
22 xulAncientRedwoods.esp
7 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 Frostcrag Addon.esp
16 JolardHome.esp
9 SentientWeapon.esp
2 DJ Markov Manor.esp
1 Lakewood Village Ver 2.0.esp
3 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
12 Mountaintop Ranch.esp
12 VeronaHouse120.esp
7 mythsandlegends.esp
2 Pimea_Necromancers_lair.esp
17 bartholm.esp
2 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
22 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
20 Septim Mansion.esp
12 MyMountainTower.esp
3 300_Artifacts.esp
10 exhunter_edengarden.esp
19 Villages1.1.esp
117 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
1 Castle_Veyond.esp
2 Buddah Mansion.esp
15 thievery.esp
1 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
1 eyja.esp
1 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
1 Rumare Castle.esp
49 Damarask.esp
17 WOTFH_1.1.esp
4 Museum.esp
1 Friendly Fire.esp
21 NorthernBorderFort.esp
12 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
4 Gift of Kynareth.esp
12 RavenviewVillageVer2.0.esp
1 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
7 Armor of the Dark Lord.esp
50 Champion's Mansion.esp
6 White Tower v0.8.esp
9 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
8 GlenvarCastle.esp
3 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
1 Companion Neeshka.esp
16 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
5 Emeraldsvale_01c.esp
55 KumikoManor.esp
40 COR-Episode1 Secret of Enourk.esp
1 Sunken Fortress.esp
30 Quest For The Elements.esp
3 DibellaTemple.esp
16 Aqvatika.esp
13 Pirates Grave.esp
3 Sousmarin_manor.esp
6 Aurelion1.esp
71 DremoraCompanion.esp
9 Nascosto Isles.esp
4 Castle_Highrock.esp
10 VaultsofCyrodiil.esp
2 farbridge manor.esp
107 Personal Portable Paradise.esp
37 Abecean_lighthouse.esp
4 Black Markets.esp
1 Valley_View_Estate.esp
25 RGA-ESHouse.esp
28 TamrielTravellers4MMM.esp
5 300_White Stallion.esp
26 Falkreath.esp
584 Save 2853 - Cecil - Armory, Level 45, Playing Time 541.00.28.ess
2753 Total

58 Dialog Entry
6926 Oblivion.esm
39 Silgrad_Tower.esm
1 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
20 CM Partners.esm
10 Comp_Cecilia.esp
1 Lenawiln_Cottagev2.11.esp
1 DLCOrrery.esp
47 JolardHome.esp
24 SentientWeapon.esp
18 Toaster Says Share.esp
218 bartholm.esp
12 prettyEnh.esp
80 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
7 exhunter_edengarden.esp
26 Villages1.1.esp
12 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
50 NakedNord.esp
102 thievery.esp
2 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
64 eyja.esp
2 Castle_Domrose_V1.2.esp
24 Rumare Castle.esp
131 Damarask.esp
8 Friendly Fire.esp
14 NorthernBorderFort.esp
15 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
4 Gift of Kynareth.esp
10 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
5 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
9 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
17 OldCrowInn.esp
15 GlenvarCastle.esp
5 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
17 Wizard-Elemental-Pack-201.esp
87 Companion Neeshka.esp
11 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
39 KumikoManor.esp
30 Quest For The Elements.esp
122 DremoraCompanion.esp
2 Castle_Highrock.esp
17 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
17 delivery_job.esp
44 Valley_View_Estate.esp
2 RGA-ESHouse.esp
32 Druids Guild Mod.esp
24 Falkreath.esp
8363 Total

59 Quest
260 Oblivion.esm
6 Silgrad_Tower.esm
1 ArmoryLab.esm
1 bookplacing.esm
11 Cobl Main.esm
1 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
1 Qarls_Harvest.esm
1 Jog_X_Mod.esm
1 CM Partners.esm
1 xuldarkforest.esp
3 Comp_Cecilia.esp
1 xulAncientRedwoods.esp
1 CallSteed3.0a.esp
2 Jason1_Pirate Ship.esp
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 DLCOrrery.esp
1 Frostcrag Addon.esp
2 JolardHome.esp
5 SentientWeapon.esp
3 GP_Moretta.esp
1 gardening.esp
1 DJ Markov Manor.esp
5 LostTelvanniCodex.esp
1 HouseMapMarkersOnlyBought.esp
1 VeronaHouse120.esp
1 Toaster Says Share.esp
17 bartholm.esp
1 ElysianEstate-v1.1.esp
3 P1DkeyChain.esp
3 prettyEnh.esp
4 DSPirateIsleBeta.esp
2 Septim Mansion.esp
1 DecoratorAssistant with OBSE v1.1.esp
1 300_Artifacts.esp
1 exhunter_edengarden.esp
6 Villages1.1.esp
1 Artefacts of the Ancestors.esp
8 NakedNord.esp
19 thievery.esp
1 Bayview_villa_1.3.esp
6 eyja.esp
2 Rumare Castle.esp
13 Damarask.esp
2 WOTFH_1.1.esp
3 Friendly Fire.esp
1 M.O.E. - Levitation Magic.esp
5 NorthernBorderFort.esp
2 M.O.E. - Teleportation Magic and Icarian Flight.esp
1 Damsels_In_Distress.esp
1 M.O.E. - Tools of Kagrenac - The Secret of White Gold Tower.esp
1 Gift of Kynareth.esp
7 KvatchAftermath, with ScribeSupplies.esp
1 WeaponsOfTheNine.esp
2 Topal Island & Safe Water.esp
3 OldCrowInn.esp
1 GlenvarCastle.esp
1 1.7 The Dragon Citadel.esp
1 dhsRTentwithSorter.esp
4 Wizard-Elemental-Pack-201.esp
1 Companion Neeshka.esp
4 ICTalosPlazaHome.esp
1 Dude Wheres My Horse.esp
9 KumikoManor.esp
3 Quest For The Elements.esp
12 DremoraCompanion.esp
1 Nascosto Isles.esp
3 Personal Portable Paradise.esp
7 sS-OrderOfAskarthe.esp
3 delivery_job.esp
1 Rhianna.esp
2 Valley_View_Estate.esp
4 RGA-ESHouse.esp
2 Bag of Holding.esp
5 Druids Guild Mod.esp
3 300_White Stallion.esp
3 Falkreath.esp
504 Total

61 AI Package
7 Oblivion.esm
1 prettyEnh.esp
1 KumikoManor.esp
9 Total

New ObjectRef Bases
Count IRef BaseId
456 000058C7 2F000CE7 27 kb
265 0000700D 280016B7 53 kb
443 00007086 00189D54 24 kb
285 00007090 00189D57 15 kb
293 00007091 00189D55 16 kb
415 00007092 00189D56 22 kb
168 000076F1 000336BC 11 kb
232 0000934A 07002099 12 kb
116 00009420 07002098 6 kb
104 00009421 07002091 5 kb

Well, the other created items look okay assuming that you're an active enchanter and alchemist, but your key count is definitely too high. Not like 60k high, but 1k high. Those could probably be cleaned, but compared to overall I don't think it's a bit deal.

Basically, looks to me like you've just got a lot of mods, and that's the reason for the size. You might check the stats for those and see if they're reasonable. Like the 4978 for Dremora Companion. Seems kind of high.

Hmm... That's odd, your DremoraCompanion object ref count is higher than its formid count. Formid count should be sum of all individual type counts. (I think.) Anyway, yeah I'll want to look at your savegame. Post it somewhere where I can access it and send me a pm about where to find it.

I've looked over cBankston's report, and my conclusion is: He's got a lot of mods (175). Possibly some of these could be better designed to reduce long term impact, but I wouldn't swear to it. I've expanded some of the stats reporting in bash, results are shown below.

Here's an expanded data dump for created items (with an added column for cumulative size of additions).

So, although he's got a little duplication of keys, the effect is trivial (96kb plus probably another 100 kb for the associated change records). (Or this might not be duplication at all -- maybe it's the keyring mod?)

The confusion I had previously was between change records and referred to formids. I brainbubbled and thought they were the same, but they're not, of course. Duh! Savegames need to keep track of formids in two ways: 1) as a change record (because the object was changed or created in game -- e.g., an axe has worn down a little); and 2) because something else refers to it -- I'm not totally sure about this, but e.g., putting the axe in your inventory -- now your inventory needs to refer to that formid. Anyway, sometimes a mod has more items changed, and other times, it has more items referred to. So, no problem there.

Here's the expanded data dump for formids. The first number ("Refed") has a small impact. The second number ("Changed") will have a larger impact because each associated bit of data is longer. Third number (MI) is just the modindex of course.:

So in short, message is lotsa mods == larger save files. Not a shocker there, huh? My level 49 character with 327 hours, but only 29 mods has a savefile size of 5 Mb. Cb has a level 45 PC, 540 hours, 175 mods and weighs in at 13 Mb. I think that we can take that as being pretty reasonable for that number of mods.

Hmmm... A lot of this might be play hours and playstyle maybe? Check this out:

That's the top of my level 49 PC. The top space eater is almost certainly going to be the changed records for Oblivion.esm. He's got over 2.5 times the number of change records that I do -- which fits pretty well with the respective differences in our save files.

Maybe a mod that causes a lot of Oblivion objects to have change refs when usually they wouldn't? Realistic flora maybe?

cb mentions that he only recently installed realistic flora, having used Harvest Flora previously, so that may be responsible for his high Oblivion object ref count.

It would be useful if I could get Bash to review object refs to determine counts for particular types of objects (e.g., how many steelcap mushrooms, etc.). However, I'd have to do a fair amount of coding to get that to work, and right now I'm working on other stuff. Maybe later.

1 question, will saving via console avoid problems?
cause since Morrowind I never use quick or autosaves and still doing that with oblivion.

Sooo... Does
PurgeCellBuffers(mod) help this?

I find this strange with my mod..esm smaller / esp larger..

But I can explain the reason why ..My tamrieltravellers.esm is the resource nothing is put into play and nothing is referenced maybe just a few..While in my tamrieltravellers4mmm..This has all my travel aipackages that are referenced along, npc referenced, etc.. So I wonder if the number are the same in different save..Different game..

Thank's Wrye Good information to know!!!

How you save doesn't matter, and in fact saving from the console also generates a large text file per each save (which won't impact your save size, but will throw some more junk on your disk). PurgeCellBuffers will not help (read back in the topic).

Keep in mind that most people don't have savegame bloating If the save is over 20 Mb, you do. If it's between 10 and 20 Mb, you may. Less than 10Mb, most probably not. Read around in the topic to get more info.

Gen_Lee: BTW, I was trying to recall your name earlier. Did you know that Bash can now be translated to other languages fairly easily? Current release already has German, Russian and (a little) Italian. If you're interested for Portuguese, drop me a note. You'll find more info here: Wrye Bash: Internationalization. In short, to get a translated version, someone just needs to add the appropriate string translations to a text file -- the rest is automatic.

New Bash Release: I just did a new Bash release (0.52) which has the slightly expanded savegame stats from above.

Glad I found this thread. My present save is 158 Mb & takes close to 1 hour to load. Some explanation before I paste the Bash Statistic. Played almost all of the game on an FX 5700 at 800x600 then got a new system ( GF 7950 GX2, Asus P5B Deluxe mobo etc. ) & thought I'd play Oblv from scratch. Installed Arianna Trudeaux early on. Save 2 = 1Mb @ 11 hrs. Save 3 = 1.2 Mb @ 15 hrs. Save 4 = 14 Mb @ 35 hrs but by now I'm using Mazoga the Orc as a companion as well. Evry time Mazoga dies I've been resurrecting her using the console after each battle ( but not before looting her for stuff to sell ). Now the bloating starts to rocket with each save.


Abomb Counter
Integer: 0x48B7E13F
Float: 376585.97

Array Sizes
855640 Created Items
732361 Records
13862 FormIds

Created Items
160207 38326 kb ALCH
1 0 kb ARMO
2 0 kb ENCH
691659 93211 kb MISC
3771 626 kb WEAP

FormIds
Refed Changed MI Mod Name
584 Lost Refs (FormId == 0)
12911 34795 0 Oblivion.esm
8 4 1 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
5 5 2 DLCHorseArmor.esp
21 13 3 DLCOrrery.esp
34 20 4 ArianaTrudeaux.esp
41 574 5 DLCFrostcrag.esp
18 112 6 DLCThievesDen.esp
42 385 7 DLCVileLair.esp
84 272 8 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
9 2 9 DLCSpellTomes.esp
101 288 10 Knights.esp
2 0 16 Missing Master 0x10
1 0 63 Missing Master 0x3f
1 0 197 Missing Master 0xc5
0 695891 255 quicksave.ess

6 Faction
15 Oblivion.esm
15 Total

20 Armor
1 quicksave.ess
1 Total

21 Book
32 Oblivion.esm
5 DLCFrostcrag.esp
8 DLCVileLair.esp
45 Total

22 Clothing
1 Oblivion.esm
1 Total

25 Unknown
1 Oblivion.esm
1 Total

27 Misc. Item
691659 quicksave.ess
691659 Total

33 Weapon
3 Oblivion.esm
3771 quicksave.ess
3774 Total

35 NPC
1194 Oblivion.esm
5 DLCOrrery.esp
1 ArianaTrudeaux.esp
3 DLCThievesDen.esp
3 DLCVileLair.esp
52 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
1 DLCSpellTomes.esp
36 Knights.esp
1295 Total

36 Creature
11 Oblivion.esm
11 Total

39 Key
16 Oblivion.esm
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 DLCVileLair.esp
18 Total

48 Cell
6343 Oblivion.esm
4 DLCVileLair.esp
253 quicksave.ess
6600 Total

49 Object Ref
22103 Oblivion.esm
2 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
4 DLCHorseArmor.esp
1 DLCOrrery.esp
559 DLCFrostcrag.esp
101 DLCThievesDen.esp
355 DLCVileLair.esp
169 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
150 Knights.esp
123 quicksave.ess
23567 Total

50 NPC Ref
1582 Oblivion.esm
5 DLCOrrery.esp
1 ArianaTrudeaux.esp
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
3 DLCVileLair.esp
50 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
1 DLCSpellTomes.esp
50 Knights.esp
4 quicksave.ess
1697 Total

51 Creature Ref
686 Oblivion.esm
7 DLCFrostcrag.esp
7 DLCThievesDen.esp
4 DLCVileLair.esp
36 Knights.esp
80 quicksave.ess
820 Total

58 Dialog Entry
2589 Oblivion.esm
1 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
1 DLCOrrery.esp
17 ArianaTrudeaux.esp
6 DLCVileLair.esp
4 Knights.esp
2618 Total

59 Quest
219 Oblivion.esm
1 Easy_Companion_Share.esm
1 DLCHorseArmor.esp
1 DLCOrrery.esp
1 ArianaTrudeaux.esp
1 DLCFrostcrag.esp
1 DLCThievesDen.esp
1 DLCVileLair.esp
1 DLCMehrunesRazor.esp
12 Knights.esp
239 Total


Can't think what to add here except to say that I made a backup of the 158 Meg file before testing for Null Refs in it and found none. Got the Bash yesterday so It's still new to me. Anyone know how to get the massive file size down? I'll post again if more info's needed. Cheers.....

158 Mb? 1 hour to load? We have a new champion! Worst I heard of before was around 80 Mb.

Okay, I'll see what I can do about adding some more bloat cleaning to bash. (I need to add something that will remove all those duplicated companion items.)

Meanwhile, you need to fix your companion share -- that's what's bloating your game. Read back in the topic a little bit for hints.

Wrye Bash 0.53: Remove Bloat Command
This new command replaces and extends the previous "Remove Null Refs" command. Assuming that I didn't mess up the code, and based on dev_akm's previous experience, hopefully this will help with the remaining major bloat sufferers.

Warning: Again, this is a very experimental feature may very well corrupt your savegame! It's possible that you'll lose some of your custom stuff if using this. If I coded this right, it should work pretty similarly to what I did by hand for dev_akm, and that turned out well -- but that's only one data point.

For more info, see: Wrye Bash: Remove Bloat

Astorius, let me know how this works for you...

PS: Download from Wrye Musings, of course.

OMG, 158MB! Incredible!

Good job, Wrye!

158MB save game? Holy cow! Has the game started to make up new words on it's own yet? With that large of a save I'm surprised it even loads at all.


I'll be very interested to see if the updated Bash will cut down that savegame. Still amazed by the size of that save file....

Wrye, my current save game has 1625 Lost Refs (FormId == 0). Even after reading the Bash "Overview", I am still unclear as to any effect this might have on bloating (I'm thinking none) or game-play.

Is there a way to reduce this number? Or should I not be concerned?

That's not a problem. Basically the space it takes up is N*4bytes (so about 6 kb for you), which is negligible.

These are actually a small residue of Oblivion's fairly clever handling of mod addition/removal. If you never remove a mod, you won't get them. But even if you add/remove mods regularly, this leftover is so small, that it's very unlikely to become a problem. (Which is good because removing them would require complete understanding the savegame file, which we're definitely nowhere near!)

Oh dear! The most unenvied and unenviable save - champion in Obliviworld!

Anyhoo, tried out the latest version of the Bash. Here's what happened.

The programme scans through about 3/4 of the huge file after about 5 mins. Movement of the scan window shows a very slight system lag. The timer is leaping ahead every 2 seconds instead of 1. We're at the point where created objects is being scanned. The timer grinds down to the point where it's leaping ahead ( or seemingly pausing ) every 2 minutes plus. By now there's a very noticeable system lag e.g if I attempt to move the scan window it won't respond for maybe 10 or more seconds, the scan process being by now at about 20 mins. Then I get a pop - up window which reads:

wxPython: stdout/ Stderr ( this is the window title )

Memory Error ( window message )

The scan is now permanently paused & attempting to close the scan window produces no response.
Ctrl - Alt - Del End Task tells me:

"The programme can not be stopped because it it waiting on a response from you" etc. I'm still able to "End Now".


I reboot because the system seems kinda sluggish. Tried again with no other applications running and not moving anything. Same result, scan lasting about 18 mins. Thought I'd try an earlier save, about 35 Mb.
Bingo!
File scanned after about 5 or so minutes and reduced to about 1.5 Meg.

Just under 200,000 Ayleid statues!! I'd been letting Arianna T. carry one around for me for quite a while.

Did a Clean Reboot. Same thing up to about 15 mins then Bash crashes, no error message. One last try ends up just like the first one. So the programme is working for me with a much smaller file but not quite with the big 158Mb one.

I should add that the scans progress bar always got down to the same point with the big file - about 2 green bars left.
So near and yet so far, but it was still a pleasure to see the result with the smaller file.
Hope this helps, Wrye. Let me know if you need to know anything specific. Its near impossible to be bothered loading Oblivion right now but with Bash there seems some hope.

Cheers.....

* So, problem is system memory. How much RAM do you have, BTW?
* The sporadic timer was probably due to the way I handle the progress bar -- should be fixed in next release.
* I might be able to tweak bash's cleaning command slightly in a way that... (Hmm... See below.)
* Did the 35 Mb game run afterwards?

You might try this... Edit bosh.py in a text editor. Around line 3833, you'll find this code to which I've added one line (CLEARLY MARKED ). Just add that line and try again. That might cut memory requirements down enough to save you. Also, running under python 2.5 might make a difference -- it's supposed to encode sets a little more efficiently (and since the sets below are large, that might help). Try the code change first though.

I'm also very interested to hear if a 35MB save file chopped to 1.5MB will actually load and retain it's information. Please let us know.

And if you ever do get the 150+MB save chopped down please let us know if that one loads too!

Quick reply for now.

My RAM = 2 gig ( 2 x 1Gb DDR2 667 - 5400 Major Memory )
Processor = Intel core 2 duo E6600 2.4Ghz LGA775

Python 2.5 was the version used.



The 35MB save loaded normally. I'm assuming here that if the save loads it must have "retained it's information."
Or might that not happen? If not, what should I look for? The save started in the Chyronasium, went outside, went outside the city, jumped on the horse & galloped around for a bit, goaded a Minotaur into chasing me towards an Imperial, watched the fight then ran about for a bit, no probs. Saying that, after between 5 & 10 mins I exited the game not looking for anything specific except for the Ayleid statue in Arianna's Companion Share, which was still there.

My system is at this time engaged in a couple of processes, so I'll be waiting till a bit later on to try out the larger file as I'm thinking best not multitask with this one. I've edited the bosh.py. Will try out about 8 - 10 hours from now.

Bated breath & all that........

Due to circumstances ended up able to do a test a few moments ago. Almost identical results I'm afraid, error message and all.

Only noticeable differences were (1) the timer increased second by second this time for the 1st couple mins then gradually got jumpy as before & (2) after doing an "End Now" my system wasn't as sluggish. Error message popped up at 24 mins of scanning.

Hope this helps.....

Hmm... Going back over earlier message, what I fixed was something later. So...
New version out (v0.56). Try that.

As for what to check if it seems fine... Just go out, bang around the world a little bit like you did. If it doesn't crash, it's probably okay! Check for the items that Bash says it has removed. It's possible that they'll be removed from the savegame. (Usually, this would only happen for an item that you created in game (enchanted sword, armor, etc.)) But even if you lost a quest item, you should usually be able to use console to get it back.

Still, as I warned, this is an inherently risky procedure -- I just don't know enough about the savegame file to have a reasonable confidence that it won't break stuff. So, all I've got is the "no one is screaming yet" statistic.

Well well well.........

Old file: 158MB. New file: 2.5 MB! Result!!


ALCH Shadowbanish Wine: 160,147
MISC Ayleid Statue: 691,659
WEAP Skull of Corruption: 3,770


The save loads successfully & in a matter of seconds ( what a pleasure after all this time! )
No self enchanted items are missing - I can tell 'cos I've only made 2 - and all items from finished or current quests are there. Played the game for about an hour with no problems. Got the instinctive feeling that performance was a slight improved. Game was tending to crash when there was too much action before, so there's one or two places I can still go to and see what happens now. Autosave & Quicksave took about 1 second, no crashes ( which could happen anyway but didn't. )

I'd forgotten all about the Skull of Corruption left lying around. I'd used the console to bring another one in 'cos the one I'd gotten from Vaermina had no effect, not on any creature or NPC. Can anyone point me to a thread with a solution?

Got the file to stop the bloat. Now I just don't know where to start, as Obliv, mods etc are all open up to me.
All I'm using is Arianna T. + Shaja's Landscape LOD Repl. Borders ( can't even see those appearing! ) + just got the KOTNine ( saw that Qarl from MWind is re-doing the Underground oh boy, anyway.. )

Off to get lost in the ES Forums and see what's there. Wrye, anything else you need to know? An Artorius has been turned into one happy Isolde!

May radiant flowers from the divine heavens of the Nine descend upon your Bash.

Cheers........

Awesome to hear that worked for you, wow, 155.5MB worth of bloat from ungodly amounts of duplicated ayleid statues, that's amazing.


As far as mods go, the companion mod you mentioned you're using is a known CAUSE of this bloating, so you may want to remove it and go with another companion. I recommend Ruined Tail's Tale . He's a great companion and has a great story too.


Other then that, just browse around the forums and TESSource for awhile and just start downloading what you think you might like, then sort it all out later (that's what I do).

Big ones I can recommend are Francesco's Leveled Creatures-Items mod and Martigen's Monster Mod (use Frans for items and MMM for enemies).

158MB!?!!?!

........Wow. I'm surprised the game loaded at all for you.

Holy. Freaking. Shishkebab.

I am the Monkey God of Modding! Build unto me a statue (something like this would be quite nice actually), and pray unto me that I may occasionally grant requests (or not ) in a humorous way. (Kind of like Arkvoodle from Destroy all Humans 2.)

PS: The Monkey Thing. Warning: Writing your wiki user page at 4 AM in the morning may produce something that you perceive as rippingly funny while leaving everyone else more confused than bemused.

Hi, can you please see this thread about my serious bug:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.p...howtopic=657010

and say if I have case of Savegame Bloating ?

thnx

BloodRayne: Your created objects is not bloated. It's possible that you might have null refs (can't tell from the limited statistics that you posted there). Simplest thing to do is run the "Remove Bloat" command. That will first do an analysis and tell you if it sees any bloating. At that point, you'll get an option about whether to remove bloat or not.

However... From what I saw on the other topic, I don't think that your problem is bloat. 10 Mb isn't that much (esp at 600 hours of play!). My guess would be a mod. You might try removing mods to see if problem goes away. (Note that even if you've had those mods for a long time, one of them might have an error that doesn't show up until you get into very extended playtime.)

thnx, Wrye
I have updated statisic in my thread, so it's now complete. I've tried "Remove Bloat" command and there is no bloat in savegame . So I must search next way how to fix it. However removing OOO and Purse of Wonders isnt easy way: OOO completely changes Oblivion and (as greedy tomb raider) I have a lot of items in my Purse of Wonders . Are there any problems with large number of items in the same container (out of known visibility problem - because there is no problem, I can see all items in inventory) ?

Holy smokes!

*starts building statue to Monkey God Wrye*

THANK YOU WRYE!!!

You have saved my saves! From 30 megs now down to 5 apiece, my game no longer freezes when trying to quickload and actually starts in less than 10 minutes now =)

I'm having a similar problem with GetWet (well, HTS-GetWet merged) causing unwanted bloat, so I planned to unload, make a new save and delete the resulting null refs, but...

My savegames won't load without it being checked, so I've fallen at the first hurdle. Any tips for how to work around a mod that's outstayed its welcome but won't go away? I've checked the faq and done a not very successful search, but can't find an answer. Alternatively, is there a way of removing GetWet's bloat without first disabling it and creating a new save? Any handy console commands or CS witchcraft?

What's "HTS-GetWet merged"? I have permission to put out an updated get wet, should probably get around to releasing it.

It's this thing.

I wish I could figure out how to disable it; I'm still trying to work out how to get my savegames to load without it but have had absolutely no success so far.

I have to add my thanks to Wrye also. I had some save games that had almost 5,000 portions of boar meat and over 3,000 sets of the Dragon armor (from the main quest). Amazingly my game wasn`t loading particularly slow ,and if I remember correctly ,the saves were about 5 MB reduced to 4 MB using the remove bloat command.

Ah, figured it out, as usual I just needed to make a fool of myself in public first.

The answer, which I'm sure is obvious to many, was simply to make sure I didn't have any items from the mod in question still in my inventory when I disabled it. Now I've got my save down to "just" 6MB, although I still wonder if it might be somewhat fat for just over 100 hours playing time, but, y'know, it's an improvement.

Anyway, another thanks to Wrye for Bash's groovy new features.

I came up with an unusual invisible activator to cast spells for one of my MODs.
Instead of an OBJECT I created a creature (based on the imps) that was very small, would cast the spell, and then kill itself.

It is placed using placeatme command.

I assumed the creatures dead body would be cleaned up by the game as other dead creatures are.

Was I wrong about this?

I have not noticed any save game bloating in my 200 hours game.

Run the Wrye Bash's statistics command, and look at the very bottom. E.g., here's a report on one of my games.

If there are least 100 instances of the object in question, they'll show up in this report. (E.g., these three items are all related to drop torch in combat part of OOO.

That sounds like the perfect recipe for savegame bloat to me. Why not instead use either an item with the null.nif mesh, or an activator with the same mesh, and use moveto to put it at the player's location (or wherever you want it). Your method will leave tiny invisible corpses all over the game world. Sure, when the cell finally resets it'll go away. But what about the people that use longer cell reset mods like OOO's 30 days esp? Highly recommend changing that method.

So Wrye, the easiest way to tell what mod those objects are coming from, is to look at the first two digits and find them in the savegame's esp/esm list, right? If that's the case I have a ton of instances of stuff from just one mod.

New ObjectRef Bases
Count IRef BaseId
1165 00002455 11012579 63 kb
2679 00002456 11012568 146 kb
1902 00002457 1101257A 104 kb
1217 00002510 1101256F 66 kb
162 00002880 11012586 8 kb
529 000028E6 1101257F 28 kb
696 000028ED 11012575 38 kb
350 000028FD 1101257E 19 kb
2555 000028FF 11012585 139 kb
446 00002919 11012574 24 kb
537 0000291A 11012581 29 kb
102 0000291B 1101256B 5 kb
117 0000291D 11012582 6 kb
162 00002BD2 1101257D 8 kb
140 00002D73 11012577 7 kb
488 00002D74 1101257B 26 kb
366 00002D75 1101257C 20 kb
445 00002D76 11012569 24 kb
127 00002D79 11012583 6 kb
481 00002D7C 11012578 26 kb
845 00003372 11012566 46 kb
210 0000356D 1101256A 11 kb
169 00003592 110151A2 9 kb
161 00003798 000336BC 11 kb

The mod that matches up with those digits (11) is DEJ Harvest - Flora. I would expect it to alter a bunch of items in the gameworld, as it touches basically every plant. But I didn't expect that many in my savegame... I suppose the only way to clean that up is to force cell resets by resting indoors X days.

In case you haven't seen it, Harvest [Flora] had an update recently removing the placeAtMe calls.

HF has been known as a bloater for quite a while (check back in this topic). Looks like it's fixed now, but switching to new version won't remove previous bloating. You might be able to remove it, save a game with it removed, then use bash to clean null refs and then re-install. I don't know if there's any dangers associated with that though. (Other people will know better than I.)

Got it, thanks guys. Wondered why my savegames were slightly pudgy.

I noticed PJ's spells and the Keyring mod noted as "potential" mods for savegame bloat. I don't think anyone has any definitive info on them yet (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I'm running them both on my latest savegame so I'll be able to check them once my save has enough hours on it.

Since I encounter several issues like in-game reload crashes, save-crashes and such, I tried the savegame bloating removal feature as one of the last resorts...

What could that mean, is it something to worry about:

The last save had something like: SPEL Summon Creature: 358 [Bash removed that... and later on ...]

The next saves show 1 or 2 NUL Ref Objects.

Size of the current save is 5.8 MB and it has been around 8.5 MB already in the past.

EDIT: Current save has SPEL Summon Creature: 56 and NULL Ref Objects: 2

1 or 2 null refs or nothing. 358 SPEL's with same name is pretty odd. I'd guess that it's something done by an OBSE mod. If you go back to one of the older games and run the Statistics command,it will tell you how much space those SPEL commands were taking up (near top under "Created Items").

In any case, 5.8 is normal and 8.5 Mb is not very large. So, doesn't look like bloating to me, other than that weird SPEL deal.

Bump of life. Still useful info here.

I am having bad loading problems with a 13MB save file. I'll run your program tonight and hope for the best. I am running two companion mods (Rhianna Goddess and Sonia) which could be the culprit. Rhianna has a never ending supply of repair hammers, but I don't know that that could cause 5+ megs of bloat.

Thanks for the info.

Wyre Bash took 9 megs off of the file and it works great. Thanks!

(Now I can steal from people again without having to go make a sandwich every time I 'quick'load due to failure)

So dead Creature/Npc's do go away in a Cell reset? Would items like armor, clothes, miscitems and weapons go away? Or would they need to be placed in a container that respawns to remove them? And is that even possible.

I assume they would need to be put in such a container, since I've got an Ayleid ruin still filled with starting armor/items from hour 20!

I don't think items lying around would go away. To get rid of them, save their reference when you create them (if you did it with PlaceAtMe), create a TrashNPC in a remote cell and have the TrashNPC activate the item, then use RemoveAllItems on the TrashNPC.

[bump]

Took me 1.5 hours to read this topic, from beginning to end. Loads of info contained within but realised early on that the post was old. Wyre did a great job helping out back then and it was refreshing to see so many success stories. Especially like the 138mb file reduced to 1.5mb, really made me laugh.
Ive been using bash since v197 so never even knew any difference (always assumed it was available to repair saves of bloat).

What i'd like to know (cos i have restarted my game about 5 times now with 500+ hours under my belt), does bash get rid of all "PlaceAtMe" bloat as i really miss cutting off heads with "Deadly reflex 4.03" but fear for my savegame

Skycaptain himself said it was but I'd like conformation with all bash's improvements if its relatively safe to save now while not caring about bloat.
Im normally pretty careful with mod selection but after reading this im all excited lol
here is few pages back
http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.ph...33649&st=40

There is no placeAtMe bloat caused by Deadly Reflex, you must be referring to some very old version....in any case that´s in the very early past.

Is there not, And ive had it dissabled for well over a month now, Gutted
Ive been scared off by the "PlaceAtMe" bug going round as i heard it causes the savegame bloat.
Glad i asked now, cos its been a favourite of mine since i started playing Oblivion...
Thank you for quick reply Skycaptain.
Reactivated it now, bring on v5

What do you use to clean a bloated savegame nowadays? It's been a while since I last played OB, so wonder if they have invented some easy and effective tool.

Wryebash. It has a feature called "remove bloat".

And just to be on the safe side of things, backup your save.

And just because it's not said nearly enough. Wyre you rock!

Okay. I'm not that stupid to mishandle WryeBash, but it would be great if somebody made a simpler tool for the less experienced users. I'm afraid there are actually very few people aware of this savegame bloating... and even fewer are familiar with Bash installation and operating techniques, that's Python, man. So I can imagine a small .dll put into the root folder of Oblivion, which would inject itself into the process every time the game starts, scan the save folders and clean any save that has duplicate strings over a limit, of, say 1.000 or 10.000 duplicate records. I don't think this would take more than an extra second before the game launches... provided that the saves are regularly cleaned. Such a .dll module can save a lot of people's nerves. Remember there are a lot of friendly newbs around, some of them just don't have the sufficient skills to install and handle Bash and aren't obliged to do so. Still, they may be suffering a lot from savegame bloating. Probably Wrye could write a .dll save auto-cleaner?

P.S. A more logical way would be to have this plugin (OBSE anyone?) filter the data about to be saved to the disk when you save the game. In some way that no duplicate string makes it to the disk storage space

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but is going up 1 MB in save filesize, a lot in just 55 hrs (hrs 215 - 270)?

How large is your savegame all together and how many hours are on it total?

I'm not sure, but that would cause pretty heavy save game corruption. Usually, cleaning a save is only really worth it if the actual size reduction is rather significant

Bash has a simple "Remove bloat" feature.

Yes... it was conceptualized and developed through this thread.

5.41 MBs and 278 hours on it so far.

You should be fine.

Yay!

I searched this thread for any mention of Auto Book Placer v.3 obse and didn't find one. There is a code in the wine sorting part (I didn't check the other scripts yet) that says "set pBottle to player.placeAtMe, nItemID, 1, 0, 0" and then later it says in the script "removeMe". The script name is "ABPscriptTokenWineStack" if someone wants to take a look. Is this still safe?