I do not want this topic to turn into something negative, so I'm just going to use a simple analogy to try and open people's eyes.

Imagine that there was a club of philanthropists who made free movies, (let's call them the Free Movie Club). Many of the movies they make take hundreds of hours to create, and most of them are made by single individuals, or in rare cases, small groups. There is a good deal of cooperation between the members of the club, but that doesn't change the fact that they are making movies for free when other studios (aka Bethesda) are charge for theirs.

Now, despite the fact that the members of the Free Movie Club are doing a huge service for movie watchers, they pretty much earn nothing except for the satisfaction of creating something and the appreciation of many people who they will very likely never meet face to face. Unfortunately, the demands of the movie watchers continue to grow; no longer is it enough for a movie to be created and released for free. It's expected that the movie makers will

- update their movie with reshoots regularly
- create a press release (release thread) that's clean, concise, and descriptive to the max
- post numerous screen shots of different parts of the movie to give viewers a perfect idea of what it's about
- ensure that their movie doesn't have any "story conflicts" with any other movie based on the subject (compatibility patches, of course)

And even if they meet all of these criteria, there will still be a few people nagging them about how there movie doesn't work in there DVD player and how it's the makers fault, or how the movie's ending wasn't good enough, or how there were a few continuity errors in a few scenes. Not to mention the people who just plain didn't like any of the movie, and make public statements about how other people shouldn't watch it.

It's no wonder that there are so few movies out there that are made completely and entirely for free.


There is one obvious message hidden inside this analogy. Support the mod makers and appreciate all of the work they do FOR YOU. I'm not trying to hate on mod users that don't release mods, as I am one myself. I am just trying to open a few people's eyes, and hopefully this topic managed to do that.


Respect.

Actually, I reckon that in general mod users are alright. Once they read the stickies and get clued up on how to use mods, the proper use of official threads and all those little things, the majority of people that I've come across are fairly decent. I'd say it's only the minority that gets it wrong, but unfortunately they seem to get it wrong big time so we tend to notice it more.

The way I see it, everyone starts off as a newbie. Sometimes they're smart and get clued in before inputing anything (a.k.a. they lurk) and sometimes they ask stupid questions that the answers to are in obvious places (the stickies). Eventually most get to the stage where they're competent mod users, and everythings OK. It's just that some get the angle of the community wrong, and become the ungrateful pains we all know and love.

EDIT: Then again, I am still fairly new to this whole modding business, it's only been about a year. Some of the more experienced modders may well not sleep at night because of mod users, I wouldn't know

Conquest_Calvin has almost gotten the situation right, but forgot one crucial factor: modders like doing it. We must be crazy, but we do. That cancels out most of the annoyance and irritation at most users, leaving only the worst to feel our wrath. Or lack of, since I've noticed that this community seems to be one of the most mature I've come across on the web - if anyone wants an example of the opposite, my brother tells me that the Tremulous forums are a war ground that moderators have long since given up on.

Personally I feel that some of the mods out there are so integral to making this game great, they rival the importance of the actual game itself. For instance, if mods such as OOO, MMM, FCOM, RTT, TT, LAME, RBP, SM and all the other great mods out there(too many to name) didn't exist, would you still be playing this game? I know for me, the answer is a resounding "No!" These add literally hundreds and hundreds of hours of gameplay(maybe even thousands?) and make things so much more realistic and interesting. I think Bethesda owes a huge debt of gratitude to the mod makers out there and they should pay a lot of attention to the things they have been saying for the next game, especially in how the various mods are handled together...

I totally agree with matter on that comment, and I think this community is pretty well balanced. The old "it takes a village" analogy. I have found for myself, that many mod users, that have learned some are more than willing to step in and help out us general newbs, and leave the Maestro's to their masterpieces. And, barring the occasional lost finger, the modder's themselves are more than open to suggestions and critiques.

I agree, but whats TT? Can someone explain it to me? Thanks

Tameriel Travellers, by CorePC. One of the top modders, He is also on the Martigens Monster Mod team, another essential IMO.

They do not. Look at FCOM: It's last update was done in spring 08. It's just that people expect that bugs are to be fixed. Some modders understand bug reports as flaming and go on a paranoia rampage, though.

Aside from this there's also an aspect of responsibility. If I release a mod, I try in earnest to not mess people's game up. And if I do, I'll try to fix it as soon as possible. (As a modder I also expect that mod users do not mess up their game with problematic mods and complain to me about stuff I've neither done nor can do anything about.)

When modders do not adhere to this responsibility it'll easily make an unplayable mess out of Oblivion. To keep in tune with your movie example: It would create DVDs that will cause their player to explode. Bad.

This causes also problems for people caring about their mods - because once the DVD player has exploded, it won't read their DVDs too. To stay in your example, that is. Translated: If a problematic mod messes up the game, the fallout usually hits a lot of unproblematic mods, too. Nearly caused support burnout for me and brought me to the edge of drop modding.


How else should people get to know a mod?


Again the same problem: If mod makers do not care about compatibility, it creates a situation in which you can't, effectively, play mods with more than a handful of mods.

You'll end up in a situation in which mods aren't played anymore, because they'd mess the game for most people up. There are isolationists and overlords out there that are trying to force their mod's users to use only their own mods, and while interestingly they always seem to attract some sycophants in their own forums, in more neutrally aligned communities they get shunned for very good reasons.

In the end it comes down to this: Oblivion is made to be played. It's not about adoring mods sitting in your Data folder doing nothing. Or sitting on some internet server doing nothing, because no one knows about them.




The only thing that really tickes me off to no end are customanders - something you haven't even mentioned .

Forgive my ignorance, but what are customanders?

While I agree with the overall sentiment of the OP - I would also add that the makers of those Free movies are making them because they enjoy the challenge of creating them and need to do so in the way that makes them satisfied with the end result (doesn't matter in the least if the general public enjoys the movie or hates it, as long as it fills the need or accomplishes the goal that the director had envisioned it is a succesful production even if he or the small group that made it are the only ones that think so ! (after all the only profit gained from it is having a movie that brings your vision to light and that you receive a sense of accomplishment from. Whether others agree with your vision or totally don't have a clue in the end really makes no difference as long as you get enjoyment in watching it !! ) Hence the old movie makers credo : FFYF - Film For Yourself First !!

Players who want mods custom built to their personal expectations and denounce any mod that isn't and any modder that wont accommodate them. Our Lost Sword mod has a following of those. The people who think they know 'what will make your mod SO much better' 'if you're smart, you'll listen' and such comments.

Customanders =

Wrye's modders dictionary:
The worst is that for most customanders even Wrye's Law applies:
E.g. LAME sorts spells (by adding tags). This sorting (and their tags) can be removed by Wrye Bash. Some people reject to use it and want an option to remove them without. Then I add modules to remove them (which cause a lot of work when updating and will be dropped in LAME's next version). In response people either (a.) refuse to use them, want them to be integrated into LAME itself, or (b.) want them not "hidden" in a module subfolder for easier installation.

I absolutely *censored word* hate HATE HATE customanders!

That reminds me, how is that unleveled version of the Lost Sword coming along?

I love you man. and you'll have to ask Mage...assuming you can drag him away from his shiny new girlfriend!

There are definitely some good points there, and have to agree with a number of the other poses *Smile*

I would disagree SLIGHTLY with BG on the idea of 'isolationists and overlords' 'trying to force their mod's users to use only their own mods'-- as I say, it's only slight, and arguably relates more to the user-end of the spectrum: some mods, by their very nature, require to be used alone (i.e., a Main Quest Overhaul would, to a considerable degree, have to block out other Main Quest Overhauls- noting the difference betten MQ Overhauls and MQ Add-ons), but some Mod users have a habit of demanding that they be able to use multiple contradictory/mutually-exclusive mods together. But s Wrinkly says, it's often only the minority which cause these problems- in my exp. the majority of community members are willing to offer reasonable comments and advice, and even HELP the development of a Mod that they like.

You are correct with all of this, but I think it is quite obvious that BG had something else in mind: Modders that create mods that could (more or less easily) have a high level of compability, but where the modder (due to laziness, lack of knowledge, or even due to isolationists and overlords attitude) instead create a mod that is much less compatible than it could be.

I fully understand that some mods just cannot be compatible with all other mods, but as (mostly) a mod consumer with 100-200 active mods, I really, really appreciate it when mod creators think and strive for compability when they create their mods.

Bug reporting could use some general (err... one note, I don't really mean reports made on these forums...)

Many "reports" are simply complaints - they're short, full of opinions and half-guesses instead of what happened, don't specify the problem or give any context (i.e., other mods) and never respond to inquiries (and this is not including the RTFM crowd).

I think a lot of this has to do with attitude and expectations, and that users are expecting too much. I would love to see someone post what Bethesda's or any game company's development/bug-squashing cycle looks like. Then compare to it to what a modder can do... All mods should be assumed to be alphas - the developers/modders have tested them in a few particular situations on a single computer. Maybe the more popular mods with >10000 downloads may be assumed to be Beta level - there still aren't many people actually reporting as they do with betas, so that number is a guess. I don't think any mod reaches a level of full-release - compared to the number of hours that a company can put into a game, it simply can't be.

Roaming around the internet brings up some other comparisons. Look at a game or video card forum - most of it is "Why isn't this already working?" (Err... this is perfectly understandable, but isn't the point of this discussion.) Then wander over to some of the open-source forums like Notepad++, jEdit, or hydrogenAudio forums for Exact Audio Copy - quite a bit of a different tone, and more importantly the bug reports tend to be more useful. Why are these different should be the million dollar question. Maybe it's because the users are speaking amongst themselves instead of to the creator. Maybe it's because the forums are only there to get answers - not to rate and decide what to download. Maybe they're two different crowds, and this is the best we can hope for - it's still better than the video card forums, and if you really want to lose faith in humanity may I suggest 4-Chan...

Yeah, for the most part, it's like things in real life. In the twenties, there were the red scares, and all kinds of people were accused of being "reds" even if they weren't, if they were just progressives. But, despite the liberal progressives being the most prominent group to the left, the radicals (Anarchists, Bolsheviks, etc. etc.) got the most coverage, even though they were a minority. Like today and the Muslim faith. You see more about the radical extremists, even though they're a minority.

The same way it is here. Most of us don't flame, and aren't rude, although there are occasional misunderstandings. Some new members read the stickies, others don't. To some, (If only it was true to more of them) the rules come as common sense, and to others, they don't. Usually, they pick up pretty fast. Sometimes, they don't, but that's mostly a minority, but they stand out.

I agree with that, and apologies if it seemed like I was ignoring it: but one problem is that some mod-users (again, a small percentage of the whole) request 'compatibility' with Mod A,B & C without any real appreciation of how much work that can take. Obviously this varies depending on the Mod-- for some mods, it's obviously something as simple as moving a building; but for bigger Mods, it can sometimes require huge work and overhauling major features of the Mod itself. This is part of what I was talking about before-- as I say, I fully acknowledge your, and BG's, point about some mods that could have a high-level of compatibility.

1. Read the read me.

2. Sort your load order.

3. If you have a problem it helps if you actually let me know about it so I can actually fix the problem.

4. Read the read me. Did I already mention that?

Again, I agree with what you write. To me, it is pretty clear that it boils down to one single issue: We should treat each other with respect. Mod consumers like myself should be free to ask for improvements in mods we use, but it is important to do so in a respectful way, in the knowledge that it is the other part that are investing their time, knowledge and creativity. On the other hand, a respectful bug/incompability comment or similar wish of improvement should be met with a respectful answer from the moder. Not necessarily a "yes, I'll fix it", but at least a respectful no.

Fortunately, this forum is a very good forum in this regard. The vast majority behave in a good way here. Of course, there is some forum members now and then that simply doesn't know how to behave, but certainly much less than forums I've been part of in the past.

@ bg2408

I would be only too willing to stay away from problematic mods and I now attempt to do so. However, as strictly a mod user, my ability to recognize a problematic mod is limited if not zip. What would be extremely useful to me and I assume most users like myself, would be a list of either problematic or unproblematic mods. I can understand the reluctance of an individual with the skills to compile such a list. I remember the heat and passions generated in a thread from some months back which compared the integrationist, islandist, and isolationist approach to modding. I also remember the resentment expressed by some mod makers at having any label attached to their work. What could be done to minimize the heat while addressing the problem?

One possible approach to the problem of problematic mods, and I do see this as a very real problem for both mod makers and users, would be something along the lines of (lets call it) The League of Integrationist Modders. The founder or founders would define the criteria needed for qualifying a mod as meeting integationist standards, and then commit to meeting those standards with their mods. Any modder who then agreed to meet those standards could join the league. A master list of the mods of all league members would begin to develop. Mods made by non league members either currently active or departed could be added to the list if vouched for as meeting standards by a league member.

A pipe dream solution perhaps. But a real problem, the solution of which would be of significant value to our community.

Mod makers like yourself, bg2408, and other integrationists are in my opinion the true glue and consequent giants of this community. Please let me know what you and others reading this think of my thoughts on the issue.

Would you download a mod without a description or one with a very poor detailed analysis? Would you download a mod that doesn't have at least some screen shots to prove that it actually is a mod and not just some jerk off trying to mess with your game? Would you download a mod that hasn't been discussed in a topic on the forums? All of these provide a necessary insight on the mod that the users must arbitrate in order to make sure it's safe and compatible with their computer. Although there are some decent mods out there without pictures, those have the support of the forum topics to actually verify their existence. Would it be reasonable for a man to walk into a store and be offered something for purchase without having a description of the object in question, or to purchase it without visually seeing it? The answer is, these things are not unreasonable to be demanded.

Seems like one of these these threads where good guys battle against good guys...


The OP seems to make an extreme example, to bring a point through - not meant to take literally by most people.

And others, knowing that there is a difference between reasonable and unreasonable - point out that claiming what the OP says is not true most of the time.



And everyone is right of course - depending on what standing you take. I mean we who post here, are part of this community and can practically all think from the 3rd perspective, and are merely arguing about details.


Let´s not argue over how much good manners is enough - we all know how to behave. Let´s hope instead that someone with no idea what we are talking about gets a wake-up call.

To your first, as of right now, the best solution is to simply invest some time into researching how mods work, and then carefully examine each mod you are installing. Most problematic mods are immediately apparent. The other best tool for finding and sorting out problematic mods is this forum--modders and mod users are an incredible resource, especially within this community. While there are always rotten apples, and the higher numberss of people who frequent these forums in turn ensure a higher number of miscreants, on the whole, I find this community to be incredibly helpful and mature.

As to your second, while I think it could help the novice / new mod user in determining which mods to avoid, it also has great potential to become a huge divider in this community. What would be the qualifications to determine which mods are problematic? Could everyone actually agree, and what happens on issues where the distinction between a problematic mod and an acceptable mod are blurred? Perhaps, more importantly, is the who in this proposal. While I hold certain members in this community in the highest regard, others I'm sure have other standards/criteria.

I think the ideal, and perhaps most realistic option available is to make sure that mods are properly documenting exactly what they do, and how they do it. As long as the resources to understand mod conflicts / how mods work are easily available to the community, the mods who, through accident or (sadly) design are problematic should be readily apparent to those who are willing to put some effort into using/making mods.

Just my $.02

QFT!

Around 50% of questions I see on comment threads for my mods are answered either in the mod's description or in the readme; the questioner just didn't bother to read either of those.

Another 40% are expressing appreciation of the mod or making useful criticisms.

The last 10% are plain old trolls, or guys sounding off on stuff they have no real clue about, or people asking why my mod is not exactly like another mod that already exists.

Over time I get less sensitive to this, especially to the over-the-top hilarious put-downs that get banned five minutes after they're posted because they're so ridiculous ("THIS IS GAY," "THIS SUCKS," etc.).

Banned, how does that happen?

I haven't gotten the rude comments. Most of my my companions are rated over 9.* but there is the occasional poster who rates it low because they didnt read the read-me or figure out that load order makes a difference.

It can be frustrating, especially when you sink serious hours into voicing dialog and lip synching. People have no idea how much time it takes.

The biggest issues, are what Sulteric Drummer stated above.

How many have actually been around long enough to watch a mod evolve from the concept, the WIP, the alpha, beta and initial release, then the continuous bug fixing and updating. I have many versions of mods, all of some.....I know the sweat, anguish and trouble it takes to get a mod final....some never get there, few actually make it.

I have been here since day one, and have been amazed over and over with what our mod makers have given us to enhance this game.

Hats off to all of you, and you will never hear a complaint from me: Only a thank you.

Buddah

It's actually quite amazing to watch not only mods evolve from their alpha/beta stages to their "final" status, but to also see that on a larger scale, as this community has certainly been evolving/maturing as well. I spend far, far more time here, mostly reading about and downloading mods, than I ever have playing Oblivion.

Now I am familiar with that particular sentiment...... I have learned more simply reading these forums, than I would have from taking a university level course, and I have barely scratched the surface.... Tons of good information here, so truly knowledgeable, and helpful members. This is the best community of its size I have seen.

I don't think that a Master List of mod ratings would go over well though. Too much of it is subjective. Also, there is FAR too much material out already, to make any such list practical. "Problematic" is also a rather murky term.... what may be a problem for one person, may not be a problem for someone else, that doesn't run the same mod list. Mod interaction is rather complicated...... and folks have different views on that as well......

There are really only a few of us Left I would say from back when things first started, almost 3 years ago..Has it been that long already since oblivion has came out..

most have moved on retired, or do not come around that much anymore. I remember when frans and OOO where still version in version number's like 1.01 etc..mmm 1.x, early tt (merchantplus), mighty magic was the norm, the early days,

now the forum back then was full of lots of question because we did not know has much has we do now..Do not get me wrong we still have those newbies, but, they are not has bad has they used to be.

It is learning process after all, setting your load order, understanding how mods work, what works with what, and reading thread to make sure that you did not miss something etc..

Yes it is a learning process and there is no definitive readme for how to use entire sets of mods at once. Anyone wanting to break into the club of using FCOM plus a few hundred more mods is going to be in for a LOT of reading and testing ... a LOT.

Threads can stretch back 20 or more and I've had my fingers chomped a few times from asking a question that was already answered ... oh back like 4 threads ago. I've also gotten short responses when the readme was only updated a few hours ago to a day ago.

Some modders are asking for feedback and suggestions and when ready for it they seek it. Duke seemed to like getting feedback from me about the fatigue mod - and I was happy to give it. Perhaps from bg2408's eyes that seemed as if I was being a whatever-mander. Maybe I was? Sometimes it is about timing - if a modder feels done with their masterpiece (and some mods are that) then the window for suggestions is gone. If they like some suggestions then they're ok suggestions, if not then what a pushy mod user.

Written communication lacks SO much with regard to complete communication - and none of us are doing complete communication. Myself in real life am a psychologist and therapist and I work with people on these issues.

Daily I'm amazed by what people create in their free time for nothing but love of the game and a vision. sometimes this vision is shared and is awesome - to others it is childish masturbation. To each their own. All prophets are true.

Mostly though even in writing: respect and gratitude can go a long way.

so thank you modders and thank for putting up with my complaints and hearing some of them for what their intended to be - attempts to shed light and give thorough feedback. and yeah my requests too.

[edit] because I can't seem to see my spelling errors until posted. Gotta be a name for that somewhere.

I don't think end users expect too much, and I think "free movies" is a poor analogy. See, if you give someone a free movie, all they have to do is sit there and watch it. They don't have to know anything or be good at anything (except understanding the language the actors are speaking, perhaps); they just have to show up, sit down, and shut up. Installing and using Oblivion mods is very often not that simple.

Consider mods for non-Bethesda games, or even other software. If you download a mod for the Sims, for example, you simply drop the files in the appropriate folders and it works. If you download a freeware app, most of the time you just double-click the installer and click OK repeatedly until you get a Finish button, and it works. End users do not expect to have to know about mods to use them, particularly when they first encounter them. I think it's entirely fair to expect them to know how to expand an archive and copy/move files on their own, as those are fairly standard OS tasks, and you can also fairly expect them to check a box in the default launcher. But how do you expect end users to know about things like load order? What makes you think they have any reason to know the difference between the file types like .bsa, .esp, .esm, .dds, and .nif? If they install your female body replacer and suddenly all the imperial guards have solid black helmets, how can that mean it's not your fault? Many of the non-modding users in this forum have really dug in to try to understand how these things work, but it can really take some hours or days of research and trial & error to "get it". Even a lot of modders don't "get it". Some of you have been programming or modding or image editing or what have you for years, and you have forgotten just how large a canyon there is that separates what you know from what end users know. It doesn't matter that you are doing this for free - in the eyes of the end user, you are a software developer, and when they click "download" they expect it to just work, readmes be...darned?

I myself came into this very late in the game, about a year and a half ago. When I started downloading mods, I'd never modded anything. I do general hardware and software upgrades for a living, and it was still a chore to figure out the ins and outs of using Oblivion mods. Making mods was sometimes easier than using them. For some of you, I gave up; I moved all your files, renamed all your objects, and put it all in a barrel in the testing hall. If you want to be brilliant, keep it simple to the faces of your users. While it's not realistic for you to take responsibility for every compatibility conflict, it IS your responsibility to make your mods as useable as they can be out-of-the-box, and do what you can to prevent YOUR mod from causing compatibility conflicts (within reason). If you can't be bothered to do that, list it as a "modders resource" or "work in progress" and come back to it when you find the time.

That said...

@users:

Be nice to us. We work our collective butts off to turn the $20-$60 you've spent on this game into potentially thousands of hours of immersive entertainment.

I think you're right about how End Users often see Mod Authors, and I'd say your comment backs up the OPs argument: we are NOT professional Software Developers-- most people I know who've started Modding Oblivion have never even tried HTML, let alone adding new content to a Game. Yes, Mod Authors ARE developing Software, and whilst there is obviously a standard expected, I don't think Mod Users should EXPECT it to be perfect and flawless.
Even Professional Developers don't make flawless, self-evident Games. Look at Oblivion, with its multitude of bugs, for example. Or that any Game has an Instruction Manual with it.

Now, as you say if they install your Mod and it does something unexpected, to a degree this is your fault. However, perhaps the issue isn't that Mod Users are expecting too much from Authors, but rather the Authors (as you suggest) are expecting too much from the Mod Users themselves. Not to get into an argument about 'standard Operating Procedure', but perhaps the best idea then is for Mod Authors to either explain what the files do, or to include better/foolproof instructions on installation/usage.

Deal with an isolationist or overlord, then we'll talk again .

In my experience unless you've had your experience with them, you don't believe. To argue I need to use examples, which some would consider name calling of mods or modders, which makes it quite difficult. Imagine, as an example for an isolationist, a weather mod making it impossible to play as a custom race, and despite an easy solution available the modder refusing to change anything. Imagine, as an overlord mod, a mod stretching over all areas of the game - from level scaling to magic to body mods to clothing to weather to character leveling to races to landscape to just about everything other; a mod which makes it impossible to use just about anything else. E.g. You'd like a different body mod than the one used in the overlord mod? Or another character leveler? Too bad...

I mean, it gets even worse. Imagine two mods doing the same stuff, therefore being incompatible. Then imagine that one of the modders thinks for himself "well, it doesn't crash the game, therefore it is compatible!", despite that at least one mod will be completely defunct. And then going on to have all people flamed / banned / name called pointing out towards this obvious and factual incompatibility, even when they're speaking about making compatibility patches themselves. Then you've got an idea about what isolationists do.

That some mods shouldn't be used together with other mods is a whole other issue, and usually more a problem of the user end of the spectrum. I tend to ignore those people to be honest, because they cause more pain than everything else.
Exactly .


Random thoughts:
- there are a lot more unproblematic than problematic mods. Usually listing problematic mods would be a lot more efficient.
- unfortunately modders of problematic mods (which, if active when discovered that their mods are problematic, are often isolationists or overlords) tend to be allergic towards this kind of labeling. This can easily be seen at tesnexus, where members politely pointing towards existing issues refused to be acknowledged by the modder gets banned. Which imho is the best indicator for the problem at hand: While some complain about the "rudeness" of this community, it's one of the few places where mods can be discussed objectively. And that's only working so long, just look at the fuss around you-know-who and his mods.
- the only "acceptable" solution would be some kind of "approval" system listing unproblematic mods. Which would be very inefficient.
- although Arkngt (where did he went to?) once showed a possible third solution: He was using a system of "look at the modders first!", which imho works quite well. To put it into my own words: If a modder doesn't show interest in compatibility and fixing issues, or act like a clueless jerk, stay the hell away.


In a way funnily something similar already exists. Although only informal and not formal. Although I hesitate to say more, because it would mean a recap of the "you-know-who" events, which I'm unwilling to do.


I think the first step for this would be that the discussion ethics change. It can't be, and such a list can't happen, that a mod's quality can't be discussed if the modder is a jerk or idiot. I mean look at "Compatibility and you": I've written it because I was throughoutly flamed by pointing out that it's neither necessary nor a good idea to use the default merchant container*.

As long as it's not possible to talk objectively about a mod's quality, then I fear it'll stay a pipe dream. I mean, if you look through the forums you see about five to ten issues time and again cropping up, always caused by the same mods. Not even mod interaction, but simply faulty mods. For some issues I know which mods the user having problem is using without even looking through the load order. Nevertheless if I would make a list about common issues, how to solve and caused by which mods (which are, to put it bluntly, faulty), I'm pretty sure I'd be torn to pieces.

Well, maybe not necessarily here. Here's enough competence. But on websites the casual mod users visits, like tesnexus? Pointing out existing issues gets you banned there.

(* = well, that's an analogy, but it came down to this very situation. A mod popular back then caused a couple of new bug threads per day, which could have been easily prevented - as I pointed out the solution I was heavily attacked by a sycophant of that mod. C&Y was my response.)

Many thanks .



Feedback and suggestions do not equal to customanding. Customanders are those wanting the mods tailored especially towards themselves (of course they don't want to lift a finger for it), even going so far as to turn a mod's intention upside down.

Problem is, the less mod savvy users have a habit of not reading installation instructions. Since I've put installation instructions into file names and folder names "bug reports" (= issues caused by not RTFM) have dropped dramatically. Yes, I know my filenames and folder structures are funny, but it helps a lot .

I think the problem is that there are so many different attitudes on offer from both mod-makers and mod-users and because everyone doesn't feel the same way, it causes problems when people don't understand each other.

I make mods for me, and make them available for others to download.

Yes, I get irritable if I get what I think is an unreasonably low feedback score on Planet Elder Scrolls, but ultimately there aren't that many people's opinions I actually care about when it comes to my mods. That's why I don't upload them to the biggest mod site, because I just don't want to - it might seem like I'm cutting off my face to spite my nose, but ultimately I just don't care enough to worry too much about it. I stick it up; use it or don't.

I'm not doing you a service. I'm not working for you. I have a dayjob in which I contribute to the world at large; I don't need another one. This is my hobby. Nobody makes me do it or asks me to do it, and if I don't want to do it, I don't have to.

To be quite honest, I think it's terribly narcissistic to have this I'm-doing-the-world-a-favour attitude when it comes to modding. No, you're not. If you quit modding and take all your mods with you, honestly, it's no great loss. Really. That's often a bitter pill for modders to swallow, but there have been so many modders come and go over the years and every time one leaves, they are quickly and easily replaced. None of us are indispensible, and none of us single-handedly carry the community. If I decided to quit modding tomorrow, it's not even that I don't think I'd be replaced, it's even that I know exactly who would replace me and they've largely already done so - just as I stepped into the void left by another retiring modder, and she in turn replaced someone else.

You are not modding for me and I am not modding for you. We are doing a cheap, easy hobby and sharing our efforts with each other because it is fun to do so.

Now, if you come up to me with something that you want me to do, and it is really no trouble for me to do so, I'll probably do it. I'm under no obligation to do it, and if I don't do it, you have absolutely no right to demand it of me. I'll just likely choose to do it if I think it's a good idea, at my own leisure and at my own convenience.

The other factor, of course, is that we only have limited download space and therefore mods have to compete with each other so that only the best actually get used. In that sense, it's a fair "demand" that mods should be clearly labelled, with screenshots, and as much information as possible if you want anyone to take the trouble to download them. If they don't, I simply won't bother. I just do not have the hours in the day to download a mod, find it's not what I was looking for, and then go to the trouble of uninstalling it. Frankly, the number of sub-par mods I installed in my first year or two was staggering - floating/clipping statics, respawning containers and all sorts of errors. Far from doing me this big favour of giving me your hard work for free, you're actually taking away my time, my bandwidth, my hard-disk space ... and my patience. Is it any wonder I might get a little irritated by that? Although a lot of mods are pretty good these days, certainly for the first year, they weren't even worth having for free.

So there we have it really - you're not doing anyone any favours by modding, and unless you provide them with sufficient attention-to-detail, accuracy and information beforehand, you are actually doing mod-users a disservice. They are certainly under no obligation to use your mods, and you are under no obligation to provide them.

Perhaps the easiest answer is just to mod for yourself, but if you don't want to go to the trouble of making them user-friendly, perhaps it's just better to keep them to yourself.

Imagine Wrye taking down Bash, it would push Oblivion modding and mod using back into a dark age.
Imagine Soto removing OOO, which is still the only place centric overhaul, it would make Oblivion a lot less appealing to a majority of players.
Imagine scruggsy and co pulling OBSE, suddenly a lot of mods wouldn't be useable by new mod users.
Imagine DarN making DarNUI and derivates no longer available, the console UI would strike again.
Imagine the UL team removing their mods, Cyrodiil becomes a lot less interesting place.
Imagine Kivan and Quarn de-marbleizing the UOP, it... well, enough now.

These were only a few examples. I remember another discussion that someone claimed that the Oblivion modding community hasn't reached it's maturity. When confronted with actual examples of mod highlights the answer was for all cases along the lines of "well, I haven't used all these mods". As far as I'm remember this certain someone was you.

Here's the important quintessence, which is why I'm strongly disagreeing with you: There may be a lot redundant mods, which - when in doubt - can be replaced with other mods from other modders. This doesn't change the fact that a lot of stuff is unique, hard to recreate and would be a tremendous loss if removed. When you don't know about this communities' achievements, why do you talk them down, claiming that a lot of unique and diverse archievements would be "no great loss"? Show me anyone able to recreate Midas. Deadly Reflex. MMM. Heck, just look at the current problem people have to fix Pluggy!

Please! If you don't make mods you deem important, then that's alright and your decision. Doesn't mean that the same applies to other modders. Many modders that have quit have taken something unique with them, which didn't "came back" from other modders, which wasn't as easily recreateable.
And additionally what good idea would be to have to reinvent the wheel time and again, due to modders quitting and taking their mods with them?

*sigh*

(For completeleness' sake, here's the other post I mentioned: )

QFT, this is exactly what I meant. Maybe not quite so harsh, but definitely finding a way to separate the "user-friendly" from the not would go a long way.

Whilst that is certaintly true, I have to disagree with you to some extent.

Without meaning/attempting to undermine/insult all the people who put a lot of effort into those Mods and Utilities, what they did was not impossible-- they're not mythological figures with special powers. Your certaintly right thay it would push Oblivion's Modding Community backwards, but all of those Mods COULD EVENTUALLY be replaced if the need arose. Case in point, Aensland (who some of you might now from PES) was contemplating making another 'place centric overhaul'-- but he argued that OOO is so well-known and popular as to monopolize the market, since anything attempting the same would always be compared to OOO. It's true that the Authors of the Mods have shows great Skill, Patience and Vision, but in theory even the newest Modder could EVENTUALLY make something like them. As you said, they're not 'easily recreateable'- but not impossible.

If those Mods were pulled, who knows what might develop-- something better than OOO, UL, UOP?

As I say, I acknowledge and agree that it Modding would take a step backwards, but as Princess Stomper said, no Mod is irreplacable when it comes right down to it. Rather, it only SEEMS irreplacable because we are so used to them.

I also have to agree with Princess Stomper on the whole narcassism point: whilst I'm sure it's nice to have a Mod everyone knows, which has got HoF and a million downloads, a lot of us don't aim for that primarily. I'll use myself as an example. For 18-months now, I've been working on Darkness Everlasting. Along the way, I've rebuilt it from scratch for compatibility, rebuilt it to make it more efficient, rebuilt it because I wasn't happy with it. And I know I'm not alone in this-- I know a lot of people, both private and public, who have rebuilt their Mods time and again to get it 'just right'. If I was only after recognition, I would have quit long ago-- as was pointed out in a thread only a few days age, DE has/had some major bugs with it. But Modding, for most, is about enjoying the game, and the gameplay.

Whilst it's sad that a good modder might leave because of a few immature people insulting their Mod, or people who don't understand/don't read instructions complaining, there is always going to be someone else behind them. It's life. Those great Modders you mentioned may very well be the inspiration for those who surpass them.

make me a bicycle clowns

It's not about possibility, it's about doability and likelyness. Or to put it into other words: Show me the Wrye #ash for Fallout 3.

I rest my case.


Wait, no, I don't. The whole narcistic assumption is dangerous. Imagine making a quest mod: As a modder you know all solutions, the whole story, every little tiny bit of details. A lot of what's making playing quest mods great will not apply to your own. Guess why so many proposed quest mods are abandoned? And why even those modder actually finished a big quest mod usually abandon Oblivion afterwards? If you guess you're modding for yourself, often you're kidding yourself.

When a mod isn't important, and in the end you're only modding for yourself and everything else are self illusions and narcissisms, why take the tremendous time it takes to document and support a big mod, just for others?

People reading this should ask themself what kind of "truth" they want to have.

Not trying to get pulled into the converstation, but...


Many mods most likely would NOT be recreated. Not only it requires the necessary experience and skill with certain area of modding - something which doesn´t exist for granted - but also YEARS of work.

I really don´t believe anyone would start recreating OOO, for example, I really don´t. Something LIKE it, but nothing compared to the amount of work put into it, that someone trying to do it would most likely move on before getting it ready, facts of life.


So I really agree with BG that there are mods that are UNIQUE, and if lost they will never come back. Yes, in theory anything is possible, but this is being realistic....

Can i Join the Free movie Club?

BG and Skycaptain, I understand your argument, and to an extent agree with it-- however, the very fact that those who worked on OOO is, arguably, proof that some people WOULD stick to the project.



BG, again, I agree to a point, but your view seems quite cynical: you seem (and apologies if I misunderstand you here) to believe that people don't really mod for themselves, and then release it, but rather mod TO release. Whilst this is true, I would argue that Mods are released more as a egotistical aspect: the person WANTS the acknowledgement for their achievement, hence why people generally Mod what they like, regardless of if it has been done before. If Mods were being made just for release, surely there would be less similar Mods, since people would be Modding for fame, and fame does not come with copying.

Added to that, some of us share our work because we like it. How many times have we seen people say 'I wish I could Mod' or 'I'd do this but I don't know how?' For some of us, that is the exact reason why we release: we make something we enjoy, and then put it out there for others who might not be able to do it themselves to enjoy.

Obviously your argument has some merit, and I'm sure there are a lot of people who do try and convince themselves that they are Modding for themselves when actually they're not. Speaking for myself alone, I know I mod for myself: as soon as the FO GECK came out, I made a few dozen Mods that other people may have liked, but kept them for myself because, as far as I was concerned, I was modding FOR ME, not others. And I would argue that I am not the exception, but rather one of a large-group of Mod Author's who don't release all/any of their work.

Yeah, if you want to set the Oblivion community back three years, and then wait another three for similar mods to be developed - if ever.
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, some mods are irreplaceable, as too are some of the modders who frequent the forum.
How may times have you seen the same question asked over and over and over again when the info is readily available through either mod readme or the stickies at the top of the forums.
How many times have you seen people like Corepc, dev_akm, Dewshine, bg2408 and countless others direct players to the correct files and downloads when the game is missing resources, can't load, CDT's etc.etc.
How many times have you seen explained how to install Wrye Bash, then create and build a patch?
How many times have you seen load orders posted when utilities like BOSS almost completely do it for you? You also have an excellent guide in the forum stickies for the same thing if you want to do it manually with OBMM or Bash.
How many modders have been literally chased from these boards by mindless idiots who barley know how to open the CS?
You quote the UOP as one example of being replaceable. Any idea how may bugs were released by Bethesda in the original game? Wanna check how many fixes are in it? Kivan didn't leave the community until he was absolutely certain that all major issues in the game had been addressed and corrected.
Guys who release, upgrade and continually support their mods are not replaceable.
Thank god we have 'em.

edit for spelling

I accept that a lot of work was put into the Mods, yes, and that a great deal has been done by the Modding Community. Perhaps the main point of my argument hasn't come across properly, but what I mean is that the people who made these Mods are still only human, and their achievements COULD be repeated. Never once did I mean to express that they could EASILY be repeated, or that their efforts weren't SIGNIFICANT, or even that the loss of those Mods WOULD NOT set the Oblivion Modding Community back.

My original argument was, and still is, that these people aren't godlike. None of us are.

Let me illustrate: suppose that we are back to the time when Oblivion first came out, let us suppose that the fouding members of, for arguments sake, OOO, decide they don't like Oblivion. Potentially, yes, OOO and nothing like it may exist. My argument is, however, that the NATURE of the Oblivion Modding Community-- the general consensus as expressed through the forums, through individual reviews, et cetera-- would lead SOMEONE to produce something of the same magnitude.

If I may take analogy to the extreme. Imagine that one of these major Mods is the Modern World. If the Modern World comes to an end (represented by the permanent removal of the Mod), but humanity (Oblivion) continues on, Society would be rebuilt. It would be a big task, taking years, maybe even centuries, but it would happen. My belief is that if Wrye, Scruggsy and all the other amazing modders (and even Corepc, dev_akm, Dewshine, BG2408, et cetera) dropped out of the community, other people would take their place. IN TIME.

Yes, I accept that these Mods HAVE BECOME irreplacable simply by their existence. But you all seem so (for lack of a better word, so apologies for the negative connotations of the word) obsessed with them that you cannot imagine playing Oblivion without them. If they ceased to exist, what would you do? Can you really say you would either A) Stop playing Oblivion all together, or Continue with what you would consider an inferior experience?

You should have clicked on the quote link in my initial post about princess_stomper's dangerous views, which you so readily defend*.

If you'd have done, you had seen posts that some people (yes, you've probably guessed who) refuse to play Oblivion or (to be more correctly) modded Oblivion, because the highlights of Morrowind's modding scene weren't recreated neither in itself nor in their spirit of gameplay and style of content for Oblivion. So yes, there are some people not playing modded Oblivion, because they miss some kind of mods (which are doable, but impractical). Others still, if they play at all (which was also posted over there) see Oblivion as an inferior experience, due to aspects missing that they think can't be remedied by mods.

Even more, if you look into Oblivion forums who don't know anything about mods (casual gamers, console players) you see a lot of people giving up Oblivion just because they miss something that existing mods like OOO have created. They just don't know about it. Or it wasn't translated to their language. Or is not available to their system. A lot of reasons.

There's even a lot of stuff missing in Oblivion, which was done for other games. And would have been possible, except that no one did it.


* = I want to thank Skycaptain and Shikishima for bringing more reason into this discussion. What we see here are very parloristic views. I've already seen a modding community that got destroyed by similar opinions as they became too popular. Don't need to see that again.

Accepted. Though I would point-out that I defend Princess Stomper's views primarily on the fact that, from her input within this thread, they seem to corrolate with my own, rather than simply agreeing on her views as contrast to yours.

It's certainly true that there is a LOT of stuff which could easily be done, but hasn't been. Just as an example is Guns. Yes, they've been done using retextured/reanimated staves, but it was no difficulty to create 'real' guns as a separate weapon-type.



Maybe the question, then, is more one of why it WASN'T done. Using my above example of Guns, I've seen numerous requests for these, but the majority of replies I've seen are negative and to the extent that 'it breaks the Lore'. If you feel the community is against you, or your idea, then are you really going to release a Mod? I'd argue no, and so perhaps these Mods weren't made because the people who could did not have support?

I do, to an extent, have to disagree with the comment about it not being on their system. Not because I want to disregard your argument (which is a valid point), but because the original post was on MODS, which are, currently, exclusive to the PC.
As to their not knowing about it, we have threads here on the forums where you can ask about Mods-- surely these people not asking if Mod X exists is similar to the people who don't read the Read Me, and then complain a Mod doesn't work? If you don't investigate, you don't know-- and I'll readily admit I prove that in not checking the Quote Link you provided earlier

[Edit]
Apologies for my ignorance, but have you a definition for 'parloristic'? I've not come across the word before, and can't seem to locate it in the dictionaries I use.
[End Edit]

Is the thread getting somewhat derailed? Are we talking about how much we expect from mod users, or are we talking about how modding fills our "love tank"? Perhaps for some it is the same issue.

These "mindless idiots who barley know how to open the CS" are the end users you are getting your ego fixes from, and you'd probably do well to consider that a lot of them won't even know what the CS is and there is nothing wrong with that. Really. You cannot expect people to know right off about OBMM, Wrye Bash, BOSS, etc... there are a dozen or more of these little apps that some of you seem to think people ought to have to pass tests on before they should be allowed to click "download", and that's just not fair.

Be real - most users would rather spend more time playing Oblivion than trying to get it work how they want it to. This is what separates the users from the modders, and somewhat explains why we depend on each other. They need us to give them content, and we need them to enjoy the content that might not have been worth it to do just for ourselves. And if you keep that in mind while you're modding, maybe you will stop expecting so much from your users instead of griping that they expect too much from you.

RL comparison: The other half of my brain writes poetry instead of scripts, so I am frequently around other poets. More often than not, they will more appreciate a piece of poetry that does not rhyme or seem to make sense at face value. They will often be more inclined to write this way themselves, using all the tricks and techniques of contemporary poetry, and then congratulate themselves and each other on being brilliant. The general public, however, being less educated on the particulars of the trade, will often prefer hallmark cards. This positively horrifies these other poets, who then decide that the general public is too stupid to see their brilliance.

This sounds like a lot of you in this thread.

That was effectively my earlier point-- that Mod Author's need to make their Read Me's more specific; and also BG's point about isolationists/overloads-- that some Mods are too difficult to install and pting people off.

But I think you also over-simplify the matter: because of Oblivion's limits, there are times when external programs are required-- a fine example of that is when two Mods alter the same thing. One may overwrite a MAJOR change created by another Mod. It is not the Mod Author's responsibility to assume what Mods the End User is going to have loaded, and react accordingly.

A real world example. You need a good PC to play Oblivion. (No, I'm not going into playing on the consoles just now). Should Bethesda have reduced Oblivion because some users have inferior PCs? No, since their aim was to create THEIR vision. The same is true of a Mod Author: if their vision requires the use of OBSE, then they have a 'right' to expect the user to use OBSE to use the Mod. Obviously they need to TELL the user this, and ideally provide information on where to GET OBSE, but the Mod Author has no requirement to tell the End User how to install and run OBSE.

Yep, and I support those views adamantly, as well as Princess Stomper's about how we can effectively be wasting people's time if we do a poor job making our mods easily usable.



This I certainly agree with, but there is a difference between what you can ask within reason and what you can expect within reason. You can ask your users to learn and use these utilities, but expecting them to already know and use them is not logical, practical, or even really fair.

For example, if you create a mod that adds new playable eyes, you can expect your users to drag and drop files and activate the .esp. But if you don't tell them upfront and in simple language that using this mod with other mods that alter or add hair, eyes, ears, eyelashes, piercings, tattoos, horns, claws, etc. will cause conflicts unless they take extra steps, you have earned whatever negative comments or stupid questions appear on your mod's thread, because your expectations were not reasonable. List the specific mods you know of that will conflict. Tell them upfront how to resolve these conflicts - give them the links to the apps & how-to's right there in your readme. If a 10-year-old can't do it with your instructions, you didn't explain it well enough.

On the other hand, if you have done all this and the end result is that a user will have to spend roughly 30 minutes of reading forums and manipulating mods just to get some purple eyes into their game, you have effectively ruined the fun factor. At this point, you either need to find a simpler way of implementing your idea, or just accept that you are writing this poem only for other poets, so to speak, and that the general population isn't much going to care for it.

CDM_, not to put too fine a point on it, check up on PlanetElderScrolls, you will find a Blunderbuss mod, and a Gunshop mod with 17 models. Similarly, if you check out TES, you will see a mod that adds John McCain's face. These seem proof that people will do mods they like, whether they have the backing of the ES community, or not. They probably won't get much help if any from that community, but that's the nature of things. You can't force people to do what they don't want to do, and most of us, modders and users (who include modders, naturally) prefer staying within lore. Still, there are enough modders around who don't care about lore to help out in matters such as the meshes, textures, etc, for guns and McCain. Most posters don't bother answering such thread requests for anti-lore stuff. Those that do so negatively, are usually pretty restrained about it. But they're making a point, in a community that supports their views. With respect, how can a community that does this for its own pleasure, be forced to change its ways?

I think on this forum most users are appreciative of the mods they get for free. However i have seens posts talking about certain mods where everyone was very unappreciative of that mod. The mod that comes to mind was someone bringing up the ability to play oblivion multiplayer. I personally have not tried it but think its a cool idea and wish that bethesda eventually adds such features in furture titles.

However when said multiplayer mod for oblivion was mentioned there were several replies stating oblivion is single player only. why would you want to play multiplayer etc. I don't think it was just mod users either maybe even some mod authors with those very opinions. I found it rude and shortly after the thread was locked.

Why such hostility to that mod? beats me.

While this is not exactly on top and I´m not an expert on this off-topic, since you were sincery wondering...

...I think that people here simply don´t like multiplayer games, at least don´t want to see Oblivion "ruined" by making it a multiplayer, cause if Beth would actually go down that path it would mean the game would not be taylored for singleplayers to begin with, there is only so much work that can be put into a title.



And why would someone think multiplayer is a bad thing in a game? Simple answer, the people playing it.

Many people, and especially people here (as majority are still playing this single player game) love games which allow them to immerse into the game world. While multiplier sounds "more real" in concept, in practice it more often than not means dealing with idiots that make pretty sure that you don´t forget those are other players, and ~10 years old.


I´m just guessing here, but I think that pretty much sums up why comments like "why multiplayer - what´s the point??" rise up, and I must admit I pretty much agree - though I would enjoy a GOOD multiplayer game myself, but that´s utopia.

When buying a new car do you just stick the key in and drive off, hoping everything works like the old one?
Or do you examine the object and then digest the manual that comes with it to optimize performance?
These forums have extensive stickies, and the best modders include very well documented readme's for a reason.
Elder Scrolls games aren't run of the mill games where you download a mod, stick it into your resources folder and off you go.
Almost unique to any other gaming, ES modding has rules that must be adhered too.
Anyone familiar with either Morrowind or Oblivion already knows that fact, or very soon after become very aware of it.
Ego has nothing to do with it, just common sense.

I'm in 100% agreement here. Multiplayer becomes a demanding time mistress. It's always on a pay per month basis and even if it was only $1 people feel obligated to play it to the occlusion of anything else due to that $1. With that kind of gameplay, constant playing, people get bored unless the game is updated daily. They always demand "more and more". THey don't care of the quality they just want quantity. If enough 10 year olds want something stupid in the game, believe me, they'll put it in there to keep them happy and paying.

Multiplayer also requires extensive research in Economic matters. Several MMORPG's tanked due to not paying attention to this, and the ones around today learned that lesson and put in factors to fix it. Still, it's a delicate balance.

You also end up grinding levels. That can be way too tedious. I like games like that, but the appeal of Oblivion was that you didn't have to. You could still have exciting adventures while building up instead of standing in one spot killing the same goblin over and over. Ready to chop trees for logs to sell? Ready to sit there fishing for hours? You'll have to to make money in a MMORPG. Ready to watch the game suffer due to the Chinese using bots to gold farm.....or in this case Septim farm? The more they do it, the more you have to do game "work" and less play.

I speak from experience in these matters. I've even helped design economic models and ways to fix them. For the average player, this is dull and boring when they realize they're actually "working" in game more than they're having fun playing.

Oblivion is different from most RPG's in that you have stuff to do and don't have to grind out levels. That's one of it's chief selling points. If it becomes 'yet another grinder", it'll lose that appeal. Also, if multiplayer and controlled by Bethesda, you can forget these modders (who put out great content) being able to add to it. Multiplayer would take every freedom from the game as well. You'll feel obligated to "do that quest" in order to get certain items or open up new areas. Want to wander around and hunt only? You Can't in a multiplayer as if enough people do this, the hide's value will become worthless due to lowered demand.

Then there's the problems of PVP....hell, I could go on all day on why Oblivion shouldn't be multiplayer. Besides, there are many games out there for this. Wow, Runescape, etc. and Bethesda coming in late won't attract those people away. It's doing great as it is and should stay that way. Ok, one brief example of PvP. Let's say two people go head to head, they've equal skill, equal armor and weapons, and equal everything. Who would win? You'll say "it should be a tie"...wrong. For these types of games you have to put in a flawed to hell luck factor. Ready to get beat and lose everything you're wearing to a person 20 levels lower than you? Be ready for it with that luck factor. Ready to join a gang(they call them clans, but they're the same thing)? You'll have to as you'll be easy meat as a loner.

I remember this luck factor well. In Runescape, some players when made had outstanding luck, and others had pitiful luck. This affected drop rates too. My main character was made with bad luck, but I didn't find out until 6 months of building it later. I made a different one at another time and this guy practically got good drops every minute or so. Yes, this stinks for players with the bad luck as you're thinking. Want to complain about it and threaten to quit? Who cares. You're one in a million(or more) and there's more where you came from.

***I actually enjoyed the luckless character playing as it was more of a challenge and gave better value to things I'd earned. However, I'm wierd and most would hate it if their character turned out to be a dud.

You could just start making people pass a test before you give them a license to download your content, then, like the DMV does for new drivers. To use your analogy, I check for what I know to check for, like obvious damage and fuel efficiency, but my knowledge is limited - if the car manufacturer stipulates that I have to rebuild the engine if I want to drive the car on a highway or use different fuel to make it run in Alabama, I will look for a simpler method of transportation. This is basically what the complaint seems like to me - the manufacturers are complaining that many users aren't willing to or capable of doing these things.

I don't disagree with the generally accepted rules and standards of ES modding; in fact, I spend a lot of hours making sure I myself am well within them before I post a mod. What I do disagree with is giving potentially inexperienced users complicated instructions and then complaining when they aren't followed and your mod gets unfavorable responses from people who don't know what they're doing. It's going to happen, sure, because not everything can be done or done well without some real learning and work on the user's part, but if you release that sort of mod then you need to just accept that fact that not everyone is going to handle that complexity well. Maybe I'm a Mac, and you're a PC. I don't know. I'm not saying you shouldn't ask people to go the extra mile to make your mod work, asking is fair game; I'm just saying it seems foolish to expect willingness or competency in this regard.



On a completely unrelated note, this is why I have all but quit WoW, which I used to play like a full-time job.

However, the expectation that most internet users can use Google to find out what Wrye Bash is is not out of the question. Nor is asking a person to actually read the documentation on a mod they would like to use, and the tools required to use said mod a huge PITA for the mod user.

It is completely "fair" to require someone to be able to use the tools required to use a mod he/she would like to use. Simple as that. These are not official expansion packs. Remember, you are MODDING your game. If you want to mod a game, to change its state from how it arrived on disc to how you would like it to be, you will have to put some work into it. Sorry if you mistakenly believe otherwise.



No. The people who would rather just play Oblivion than change how their game works will be fine playing vanilla Oblivion. The person who is willing to put a little (or a lot, depending on his/her needs) time into modifying their game is a mod-user. The person who is willing to put the time into making and (possibly) releasing a mod (for whatever reason, whether out of pleasure of sharing or whatnot) is a modder.



Your comparison/analogy is flawed. We aren't dealing with "poets" (re: modders) being absolutely horrified that the "less educated" (re: players) are more interested in "ordinary" writing than their works of art, rather we are dealing with "poets" who are annoyed when the "less educated" are struggling with their poetry, complaining to the poets, without putting in a modicum of effort into learning how to read the more difficult poetry.

Modders could care less about people who don't use their mods. However, if their mod requires, say...OBSE, in order to function correctly, and a user whines about how he/she doesn't know how to use said requirement, this will annoy most modders. Again, if you want to modify your game, you are expected to be willing to put the time in that it requires.




Except learning how to use Wrye Bash for a mod to function isn't quite the same as learning to take apart and rebuild an engine in order to drive. An analogy, I understand, but one several orders of magnitude higher than the actual situation.

I guess I just have higher expectations from my fellow mod-users...

Regarding the parloristic views (mods aren't important, can be removed, done again) I've said all I have to say. So on to other topics:

- multiplayer: The antagonism seen in this (note: Oblivion Mods. Not the hellhole that is Oblivion General) forum is usually not caused by the dislike for multiplayer per se (which is there, nonetheless). No, I think there are three reasons:
1. Existing multiplayer mods are quite advanced pieces of software. They're not for the non techie savvy Oblivion player. Unfortunately exactly those people make up a lot of it's possible target audience. There's trouble guaranteed.
2. People interested in Oblivion multiplayer don't use existing threads. Back in the days sometimes as I went online I've seen three or five threads about it, which is a bit annoying.
3. People interested in Oblivion multiplayer are preaching how great multiplayer is, which is then answered.

- readme and great documentation: Problem is, those people needing to read it, are also those people not reading it. Those that have looked at my mods know how I name my stuff, and since I'm doing it I have to deal with 90% less installation errors* (downside: People think I regard mod users as idiots. I don't. I just assume that most of them are RTFM candidates, and they proved me right). Writing a good installation documentation is a waste of time imho; if you want to help users put everything necessary into folder and file names.

* = and the last 10 percent are caused by not reading the download description, which contains a few additional tidbits I was unable to squeeze into folder and file names. Informations are also inside the readme, of course. Which is then also not read.

Apologie for backtracking slightly, but I've been away during the early hours. I acknowledged that guns HAD been done, but commented that they are usually retextures relying on the Staff format. My argument was that it is possible to create a new weapon system so the user can have: Swords, Guns, Magic, Staves. But I know of only one person (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here), who has actually taken the time to look into that side of things, rather than going for the 'easier' option of just changing the Staves.

The basis of my argument wasn't that the community should be forced to do what they don't like, but that there are a LOT of things which could be done, that people want, that aren't available because of the community's GENERAL feelings towards such things. You give two examples of guns, yet how many examples of houses/clothing could you give? Those who can do the 'missing' things BG was talking about don't because the community is 'against' (note inverted commas) them and they don't bother releasing their work. Obviously this argument doesn't apply for all variants and ideas, but I have seen MANY requests for things which were perfectly possible but ignored by the community because it didn't 'fit' with the Community's idea: if the option is not available, how can people decide if they really like it or not?

No, I don't believe otherwise, not in the least. But a lot of end users do, hence they whine and complain when they don't do it right and blame the modder. I'm not saying it's right that they complain, only that it's the practical consequence of making a mod publicly available that takes some patience and knowledge (or the willingness to find it) that the general public doesn't posses. Complaining in return about these complaints is just... well, more complaining, and who needs that? Yeah, the car analogy wasn't anywhere on the same magnitude, was just trying to illustrate my point. If the "complaining" bothers you, I just think you should find a simpler install method, disable comments, put an as-is warranty in all caps on them, or what have you. Those of us who are comfortable with and/or willing to learn about mod use will still put them to good use and appreciate them for what they are, and those who aren't won't have their time wasted or create more drama for you.

xXAequitasXx, I think a point of contention between us is what constitutes a "user". I am generally not talking about those who put effort into using mods, because those aren't the problematic complainers (at least that I've seen, generally). I suppose I am thinking more of the "end user" - you know, grandpa who thought his CD-ROM tray was a drink holder? That lady next door who phones every time her printer "breaks" and gets angry when you tell her she has to spend more money on ink if she wants it to work again? A lot of them make it to the mod sites, see all the shinies, and click download x 100 without reading a thing. And those are the people I mean when I say it's not wise for you to expect them to know anything about what they're doing, and you're just setting yourself for disappointment if you think they'd rather spend the five minutes installing OBSE than writing you a love note complaining that your mod doesn't work.

I can easily imagine it. If those things didn't exist, and a need was felt for them to exist, then someone else would make them. someone else has made them - Fran's for OOO; BTMod for DarNUI. I know you're thinking "semantics, pointing to a rival mod", but that's my point - someone else would easily fill that breach. Actually, I do use BTMod because I prefer it to DarNUI.
OOO and UL are things I tried and decided I didn't like so much. That's fine - other people enjoy them. Not everyone has to like every mod. The unofficial patch, I only use because it's there. If it didn't exist, I'd be none the wiser - it's not like I get to use it on my 360, and the console version's still perfectly playable (though I do miss those companions and houses).


You mentioned just a few popular mods which happened to be the same ones I hadn't tried. I have, of course, tried a good couple of hundred Oblivion mods, but just haven't played Mud or Blood or The Lost Spires. Those examples do not make the community mature. It's only entering its maturity. It's where Morrowind was in early 2004. I have since downloaded Lost Spires and started Ruin for the third or fourth time. When those are just some of many mods of their ilk, then we can say that Oblivion modders are reaching their potential.


OK, let me put it another way:

I'm delighted to see Korana is now modding for Oblivion. She has a unique style and there isn't another modder quite like her. Still, she was slow to start modding for Oblivion, so into that breach - that gap for really high-quality, ultra-detailed house mods - stepped Brendan62, Master Sam, Kalikut, Exilehunter, AVStoryteller ... If she'd never picked up the Oblivion CS, it's not like we wouldn't have been able to enjoy mods of the same type - hell, even the Battlehorn DLC looks like a Korana mod! - but it is certainly appreciated that she is adding to that by releasing her own.


Firstly, there are more modders whose mods I don't use out of sheer principle because frankly I don't like their attitudes than there are modders who I think are so utterly unique that no other modder could fill that gap. In every case where I think, "I don't think I want to use anything by that person," there are two or three other mods doing exactly the same thing and arguably better. I find it both sad and interesting that it is only Oblivion where I "boycott" mods, but then that's the reason why I don't pay as close attention to these boards and have never really felt fully part of the community here - I suppose it's probably different if you spend a lot of time on these boards, but as an outsider looking in, this particular scene has always appeared hostile, vain, sycophantic and egotistical in comparison with either Morrowind or Fallout 3. It's not as bad as it was, but it's just not as nice as the other boards. Obviously none of that is directed at any individual - just an overall perception. Nobody's been outright nasty to me either - which is nice - but where people on the MW boards were occasionally personally very cruel but on the whole extremely supportive, just a general impression of this board has been an absolutely gushing praise of the most popular modders and completely ignoring anyone not in that 'clique'. I'm constantly amazed at how many really good mods are just completely ignored here - but then again, they tend to find their 'markets' outside of these forums.

Secondly, it's rarely a case of reinventing the wheel so much as just approaching the problem from a different angle. Both OBMM and Bash fix load order, but they are not the same tool. If those utilities didn't exist, we'd be using something else.

I'm also at a loss to see how my viewpoint is "dangerous". If one person thinking there's more ego than achievement in a particular scene threatens the health of it, then either there's more to my words than hot air, or people aren't feeling particularly confident. See, if it was me, and someone was saying that, my reaction would be, "Right, I'll show you!" and I'd do something awesome just to spite them.


I won't lie - my HoF tag means a great deal to me, but it's certainly not a motivation to mod. If you want a very dangerous attitude, then "modding for fame" is that attitude.

Look at my/Kateri's Dance of the Three-Legged Guar mod for Morrowind. We've been working on it for over two years - real life and other modding projects have slowed its progress, but it's been up in beta for a while. Over two thousand lines of dialogue; forty new cells, a hundred NPCs .... it's a big quest mod to rival the biggest. How many downloads, given that scale and that amount of effort do you think we'd get for the finished mod?

I'd be amazed if it was more than two hundred.

Frankly, that's absolutely pathetic, and if we were motivated by anything other than the sheer joy of tinkering with our toy, we just wouldn't bother. You wouldn't have the likes of Lady Rae, or Bond for Oblivion, either if popularity was the only goal. I love Bond's mods, but they are an acquired taste. He should surely just go for the mainstream and stop trying to be different because not everyone likes it.

Sure, when the modding scene is new and every mod gets hundreds or thousands of downloads, that's great - but what when it's ageing and that mod you've just spent two years on only gets four hundred downloads? What are you going to do? Sigh because of all your wasted effort? Or remind yourself that the hobby is in the journey, not the destination, and that it wasn't a "waste of time" because you enjoyed making it.

It's not a dangerous attitude to say that you should mod for yourself and then choose to share; it's dangerous not to do that, because that way crushed egos and disappointment lie.


Isn't someone making that? To be fair, much as I'm looking forward to seeing it when it arrives, I'm not like, "O NOES THERE'S NO #ASH! NO FO3 FOR ME!"

There are already other modding tools like Fallout Mod Manager, and if there weren't, well, I'd just have to do without.


Common courtesy. If you're going to do something, do it properly.

The reason why I have so many nearly-finished mods on my hard-drive (like yesterday's released DB Sanctuary mod) is just because I couldn't be bothered with the release stage. If I couldn't do it properly, then it wasn't worth doing, and I should just keep it to myself until I am actually prepared to take screenshots, write documentation, etc. It's just polite.

From having played other games for a bit, I'm moving away from the "read the readme" ideal. It's certainly not always possible with house mods, but certainly with quest mods, etc., I'd like it to be where the readme only reiterates the information you get in-game; just like a really good game tutorial should negate the need for the manual. Sure, too much hand-holding is a drag, but you should at least be able to start a quest intuitively without reading a ton of documentation to get there. It's a more modern approach that sustains the immersion by not forcing you to look away from the screen. Anyway, that's a big digression, but it was just what I thought when you mentioned reading and writing documentation.


I think you and I are always going to differ on those points because - and I've been there myself - the modding scene is by its nature very insular and people don't really see much outside that. Because of that, people overestimate the importance of mods, and of modders, when really all we're doing is a nice little hobby where we get to add stuff to our game. Oblivion continues to sell well, particularly on the console where there are no mods (other than DLCs) and mods continue to be used by only a tiny percentage of a tiny percentage (i.e. PC users in total are only a minority of Oblivion players). That's not to say "our mods are unimportant and we shouldn't bother", but that we should just have a healthy sense of perspective over the issue. The game is quite playable without any mods at all, and while you might know of some people who didn't like the balance and drifted off, I know plenty more who loved it and continue to play on the console.

What kills scenes, in my experience, is not people with a "seriously guys, you're not that important" attitude, but the opposite. I can think of so many situations where what happens is one person or idea becomes so celebrated that everything begins to centre around that one thing, and everything that is not that thing is sidelined and ignored or forced to conform, and then suddenly all the creativity and individuality is gone from that scene and it becomes strangled from within because only one outlook or idea is tolerated.


That's fair enough, but it's also why users like me don't bother with the likes of OBSE or FCOM. Maybe OBSE is easy to use, but after the days I wasted trying to get MGE to work, the hundreds of crashes, the hoops I had to jump through ... only to uninstall the lot later and realise that frankly no amount of view distance was worth all that, it kinda put me off all third-party programs for life. All that testing and troubleshooting sucked all the fun out of the game. I just don't have the hours in the day to mess around with things. If it's a simple install, then that's great and I'll probably use it, but I just want to get on with playing the game and if it's too much effort, I can live without it. I don't want to have to get a degree in mod installation just to have something else in the game that I'll probably uninstall after ten minutes because it doesn't really suit my style of play. I'm sure there's a lot of truly fantastic mods out there that do require a lot of work to install, and I'm missing out, and whatnot - but the worry that I'm missing out is more than compensated by the extra hour or so's actual playing time I get back by not faffing around with difficult installs. I don't, of course, complain about it - it's my choice.

HHHmmmm... I've just been scanning through the thread, and it's always something that's been on my mind.
I've been around since the start, Morrowind to be more precise (although not on the forums at that stage), and it's not until now, that I really see the wealth and generosity of content of mods for Morrowind come out in the last 3 years and before of course; in time for Oblivion too.
I have always been grateful to modders, and in turn, I wanted to do something to give back to the comunity in myown style with the factors that I appreciated in the other modders work.
Such things like trying to make it bug free (I prefer mods like this which only have minor bugs), replayability (I remember when OOO was being talked about, and the same with Frans & MMM right from the start, when Addiktive was active on the boards), inventiveness (there is no shortage of those here for ESIV), and something niche that hadn't been done before. In short, I wanted to create something for myself, to share with others instead of asking someone else to do it for me, and I was genereally interested to do it for my own learning purposes and enrichment. lol, what I did do though was alot of research, a brief trip into blender/photoshop cs and others. I'll not bore anyone with the details of those excursions, suffice to say, my abilities in my profession are well recognised, and this is purely an escapism for me.

Very rarely, or at all will I ask for any features to be added or removed unless the modder specifically asks for this, as I have a new appreciation as to what great works and complex solutions to complex problems get a work around. I remember the sense of wonderment when Mr. TissueBox posted the animations; I think a few here might remember that right? Well, along came the likes of Sky Captain who had these great ideas, and I remember the very 1st WIP before it's first relz, and wow, it's come so far to V5.0 (just to quote an example) amongst others, along with Keter Sephiroth; so what is my point (rhetorically speaking)? Well, is that I feel, when the time is right, there will be a mod that comes along that appeals to you for what ever sense and/or reason. Patience yields great results by others as we continually see. Just last night, I was researching the different mods all over the internet, and I came accross some real great WIPz's, few of which are mentioned here, and they add some truly great content.

As a mod user/creator, I expect nothing more than what I am capable of doing myself, and I think this comes as a cross over thing from my real line of work. I created my mod because primarily I wanted to use it for myself. Secondly, I knew there was a niche to be filled, and was hoping above all else, someone might come along and make a better version or similar. For me, my personal expectations of myself, will always be far greater than that of any mod user, and being my first ever mod (which I rebuilt 7 times as I wasn't happy with it, or broke it etc...) I have a long way to go where even I will be satisfied. I just wish I could do so much more, and in saying that, there is so much support, resources and help, it makes it that much easier from the selfless few who allow others like myself, a "mod user" not only to use their mods, but also resources.

But one thing I will say for sure, and to second what Buddha said earlier in the thread in the same light... Thank you all very much for the hours of enjoyment, wonder, sheer wow factor and brilliance that you have chosen to share with the community at large, usually as a result of your spare time also to bring us these wonderful mods, whether they be quests, items, houses, armour & weapons, animations, gameplay features and sheer mods that defy categorasation.

Lets not dwell on the few people who will always have their opinions generally unwarranted (and it is a shame that some of the more popular mods suffer from trolling and generally opinions which have no positive input to the mod concerned), but instead look to the positives; I mean, I remember discussing ES IV with the others before it came out on these forums, and I am amazed at what has, and is being released in the form of mods. Like Princess Stomper said, if X mod didn't exist, it would come eventually from somewhere (I was always secretly hoping that martial arts animations would somehow find their way into Oblivion); maybe not in the same style or fashion, but the nature of the universe and of this world/community is that our needs, wants and desires are common on the PC, and that those needs and some wants alone will generally be met for the masses; as the modders feel the same need themselves, and so it will be done (theosophically speaking).

Thanks again to all the creators/authors of the mods, big, small unique and diverse that enrich a great platform. And to Bethesda of course for giving us a wonderful platform to use, and my biggest hope is that all the great innovations that have been done for Oblivion, is taken on board for ES V. One can only hope

-Coors916

wow ,

About the great mods that we "depend" on that self absorbed ego-centric "mooders" take down ( for what ever reason) . If I have them on my HD can I not re-release them , giving proper credit of course as I choose ? Legaly speaking the final released "product" is in terms , owned by Beth ( can't be sold , yada tada yawn)

I think people take themelves way to serious in oblivion and I can't understand why . We really didnt have these issues in morrowind , we had the greats and such but the ego seemed "stable" . Is acid or pcp to blame ? I dont get it

Maybe someone could figure that out ? Wyre could write an indepth little page about it , post a link , who knows . Grumpy , Emma and such , those guys lead by example .

Exactly what I was trying to say earlier-- if they ceased to be, someone would make them. Yes, it would take time, but it would happen eventually. Thanks for putting it a little more clearly

Technically and legally speaking, only those mods which were created, at least in part, by the Construction Set are "owned" by Bethesda. There are quite a few mods which were created without any use of the CS whatsoever. Even with those mods which do involve the use of CS, I'm somewhat doubtful that Bethesda would have any legal claim on externally created content (e.g. brand new meshes and textures). It's not as if they even have any claim to the various file formats used by the game, such as .nif and .dds (whereas if we were talking about, for example, a game created by ID Software, the developer would be using at least some of their own file formats).




This is especially true in the case of mods like OOO, where the vast majority of the resources originate from other mods. You could recreate a good portion of OOO by gathering all the other mods included in it, and rebalancing the weapons & armour using MOBS. Of course, there would still be all the levelled lists changes & additions, creature and NPC revisions, quests, etc, etc .

I am really disappointed to see terms such as 'isolationist', overlords' has been accepted into mainstream use. Nothing divides a community more then segregating, stereotyping, labeling and what amounts to name calling, it creates an atmosphere that is not conducive to a healthy, friendly and cooperative community. However....

Yes, mod users can expect too much from mod makers, however that often comes from a lack of knowledge about the work involved in making a mod and not from selfish intent. However there are those that do knowingly make unreasonable demands and that is up to the modder to let the person know they are being unreasonable. Nothing more can be done there.

For modders, as long as there is a clear readme that should be sufficient.

Or to put it another way, if a mod creator is getting annoyed/angry/upset by seemingly "ignorant" comments from mods users, perhaps it is the creator who exects too much of the users...?

Yes, mod makers do need a little patience and understanding when dealing with mod users. They need to understand that what may seem an ignorant question is a serious and valid question to the user.

Users need to ensure that their question is not written in a demanding, abusive manner.

Perhaps what would make things a bit better was if sites divided their categories into "lore friendly" and "not lore friendly". As mods approach the 20,000 mod mark(Someone ask Buddha if this has already been achieved) it can get confusing for new players. The existing categories, with a few exceptions, have a metric ton of mods already in them. Most would agree that some of these mods border the realm of ridiculous, while others border the realm of brilliance.

I saw mentioned that a lot of players don't even know about Oblivion modding. That's true. For the "information age", lots of things go unnoticed due to too much information being available and things get lost in the mix. One thing to remedy this is to post an article on regular gaming sites about "Oblivion: Game kept alive through modding" complete with links to mod sites and a few teasers about what a person can expect. I actually did this for the Game Informer site. Sure you get those who "know it all" and say they knew of it, but you also attract a lot of players who were in the dark.

http://forums.gameinformer.com/gi/board/me...id=59640#M59640

When i first saw the title of this thread, i knew i can express my feelings toward this subject.

The most common mistake of the users is when they make a negative comment about your mod, even if it's all about how they PERSONALLY don't like it, not how it is made. Those comments have usually zero, or close to zero value to the author, who can't improve his mod with the comment. Here is an example:
User:
I have seen many mods on this site that are better then this one. Yours are just unrealistic, they do to much dammage, they're available everywere from the start, some of the swords are in reality knives, they don't loke good either,... and unless you don't like cluster *bleep*s, don't download it...
The user made an extremely negative comment, only whining about things that he personally doesn't like. It's selfish and unnecesary (by the way, it is a comments from RealSwords - Bosmer, by waalx, on PES). He also stated that no one should download it.

Also, sometimes people only make comments about some nit-picking details they don't like (sometimes those mistakes are not mistakes at all, just, again, things they personally don't like). A huge project, everything made by one individual (in this case, me ), and everything he can say is what he didn't like. Here it is:
User:
I think book vendors standing outside, on a market, is just weird. Books are for rich people, so there wouldn't be a market stall in a poor people's market.
Same with swords. Swords are expensive, and for "special" people only (adventurers, the player, soldiers, mercenaries, rich people with swordplay as a hobby), that just doesn't fit on a market.
[sarcasm]Dude, thank you so much for the support[/sarcasm]. Oh well, i was like that when i wasn't making mods ...

The only point in whinch i don't fully agree is the point about the information about the mod. I think a modder should always feed the crowd (users) with as much informations about his work as possible.

Speaking as someone who modded for Morrowind (under a different name ) uh, yes we did have some of these same issues. It's easy to idealize the past but there definitely were flame wars and such, demanding users, modders flipping out etc back then. It wasn't all bad of course and there were lots of great mods and collaborations, but it wasn't all roses all the time either.



There's no harm in asking a question or making a request, preferably politely, but at the same time the modder is under no obligation to comply and always has the right to decline the request, again preferably politely.

Of course users should not demand things, but likewise modders should not fly off the handle in a fit that 'The Elder Scrolls community is trying to limit me!! They want to make me do it their way but I will not!!' etc (I think many of us here know of a particular person who exemplifies the latter )

Sometimes a simple no will suffice.



While I support this idea in theory (isn't there already a lore mod list?) even on this point there is some disagreement.

For example, are Khajiits with Babe Hair lore friendly? I don't think so, but BG2408 seems to.

I guess my point is even lore is somewhat subjective, and there are bits of grey area depending upon the person's perspective.



Well that user was extremely impolite, but sometimes you have to fish out the core of what they are getting at to see if there's any useful information in there. This can be hard to do when you feel that your work has just been personally insulted. But what can you glean from this remark? This user feels the swords are overpowered and imbalance gameplay by having high damage weapons readily available right at the beginning of the game. So then the modder can ask himself, is there any validity to this? Maybe or maybe not. Maybe that was the intended design and that's fine or maybe the modder may want to consider revisiting the values and the availability of these weapons.

Because a user's comment is rude doesn't necessarily mean there is zero validity to it. On the other hand it's ultimately still just their opinion and the modder is free to consider it or not.



There are different kinds of feedback. Some are bug reports. I think (would hope) every modder wants to know about these.

Then there is feedback more aimed at the artistic direction and choices in a mod. This is a lot more subjective. Some modders want this sort of feedback and are open to it. Others do not and the way the mod is made exactly how they intended it. Both are valid viewpoints but the users are still free to comment on the artistic direction of the mod, though of course politeness is prefered!

Partially true, but not in this case. Every RealSoword (except of Goblin one, i think) has four different versions. Every version add the same swords and other weapons, but with the different stats. There is always a version that places the lore-friendly, balance-powered weapons, fit for those who like realism. So in this case, the comment really does have zero value to the author.

Very true.

When people write comments (politely) suggesting improvements to an already-released mod I had no intention of changing, I take them in the spirit in which they were given, but try to politely explain that I made it the way I wanted to and have no intention of making those changes. Sometimes, if I really have finished with it, I just suggest that the poster releases their own version changed to how they want it (like Denina did with my Seyda Neen Docks mod).

Sometimes, of course, I really like the suggestions and revisit the mod accordingly.


I found out about mods through cover-mount CDs on gaming magazines. Magazines are pretty good at covering mods, and many modders have been 'showcased' that way.

The lore-friendly thing wouldn't work because it's subjective. For example, very few of my mods aren't lore-friendly, but quite a few of them are visually an acquired taste. To take an extreme example, there's nothing in lore to say I can't paint all the houses in Skingrad bright pink, but not many people would like it if I did.

I don't like it when mod-users complain about mods being non-lore-friendly if they have been made according to deliberate design choices. Accusing someone of being lore-breaking is effectively a claim of ignorance against them, when often they had very clear reasons for making the choices they did. It should be pretty obvious that R2D2 doesn't belong in Cyrodiil, so it's a bit of a moot point to worry about it. Use it or not.

Then again, that's why we love screenshots.

I agree in general and thank Sundance for their occasionally good work, rare as it may be. (IE: SAW)

How ever, to state something that is actually relevant to the forums (Yeah, I just made fun of the metaphor. The above statement was not meant to say that most mods are not good, but rather to blatantly say that Sundance (the ACTUAL film festival) rarely makes good movies.) If you realized that, ignore this note. If you didn't, calm down.)

Admittedly, I haven't been on this forum even half as much as I used to be, but I haven't seen many people [censored]ing about stuff. Yes, some people do comment on what was wrong in a mod, or on how to make it better. But is that really wrong? No. It's constructive criticism. It's so you can learn from mistakes you didn't notice and so you can gradually improve. Modding is an art, and modders are artists. To make a quest you must tell a story, this makes you an author. To create new things, you must create models and textures, this makes you a sculptor and painter. To make things happen, you must script, this makes you a programmer. Is a programmer an artist? Depends on your point of view. But a programmer creates, as does any artist. And no artist can flourish and reach their full potential without finding the mistakes and learning from them. Some of the few will complain, some of them will insult your work for no logical reason. Ignore them, for they are ignorant and foolish. Yes, modders do a great service. The non-modders, in turn, help them by making them better. And the fools who insult you, or demand you cater to them... ignore them, for they are not worth mention.

No mod is lore friendly. They all break lore , one way or another. Even mods like Kvatch Rebuilt or Ebony Horse Armor break lore.
And how friendly a mod is to lore is a matter of opinion. And furthermore, a lot of players don't really give a gay about lore.



On to the main question: Are people really expecting to much from OB modders? Are they acting like spoiled children when they don't get what they want?
I've looked at both PES and TESNexus' comments sections and these forums and I have to say that yes, there are a group of people who are like this. However , is this problem really unique to the Elder Scrolls forums? In my opinion all games forums are plagued with these kind of people.





Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.

Well what is the alternative? Arguing with them?

Unless they are way over the top inflammatory you can't really have them banned. And you can ask a person to behave nicely but you can't make them comply.

As far as I'm concerned a little ignoring and being thicked skinned at times goes a long way.

Just as with theater, everyone's a critic.

That is usually true, though I've ran into several where this was not the case. At any rate, my point was that it isn't a serious problem, their is no reason to get upset about it. They are to few and to foolish to waste your time on, I am merely suggesting time be spent in a better manner then thinking about the (very) few who insult you or demand you do what they say. In real life, I would suggest beating them until they left you alone, but on the net any response only provokes them. Many only do this to feel better about themselves. Don't get mad at them, pity them or laugh at them. They are no better then school yard bullies who believe they have power. The only difference is that here they have no body to cause pain. Most (us) are not good enough in psychological warfare to mess with them online. It is for this reason I suggest ignoring them. You are better then them, they are not truly worth your notice.

The last part is the most pertinent. It's your choice not to use OBSE and other utilities, and while I like to advocate a couple of utilities myself, I recognize that it should never be forced to use a utility (or, by extension, any mod for that matter). However, you realize that this in turn means that you will not be able to use those mods which require said utilities. Many do not, and either rail against those mods which require those tools, or complain about how they have () to use said utilities.

While I certainly don't agree with all of your arguments Princess (particularly in this thread), I certainly do respect you because you keep a level head.

Oh, and while I didn't have nearly the same amount of difficulties as you did, but MGE certainly was not a fun experience for me either

Well two points: First... Yes some mods and tools ARE unique and simply wouldn't exist were it not for the one person (or group of people) who made them. Second, even when mods/tools can be replaced it's rather dismissive to say so. It's like, "Oh, thanks for the wonderful present, Mom. But you know, Dad would have gotten me the same thing if you hadn't!"

Second point kind of speaks for itself, so... first point... For some mods yeah, a lot of people could do them. Especially simple, highly desired mods (e.g. life effect shader). Even highly complicated mods such as magic system and world leveling can be done (well) by a number of people (say, 100 in the whole modding community).

But there are also some mods and tools which are basically only doable by one person because, though desirable, they require an unusual level of inventiveness, talent, obsession and/or available time. To give a small example: Elys's Silent Voice. A highly useful mod. Number of active members of the mod community who could do it? Maybe about ten. Number who had or ever would have the interest in doing it? One -- Elys. If Elys hadn't done it, it wouldn't exist. And has been pointed, out Elys did other pretty specific work, that is also not easily replaced (or even extended).

And (casting aside modesty) a fair sized chunk of what I do falls in this category. E.g. there's a good chance that we wouln't have esp mastering if I hadn't figured it out. Likewise, ElminsterEU's work is also pretty irreplaceable. Ditto dev_akm's FCOM work. Sky_Captains DR would probably not be replaced. Etc. Etc. (Keep in mind that for a lot of this stuff, the mods exist only because someone was able to think of the idea in the first place -- and without the thought, no one would even know to replace it.)

Another point, folks who work at this level tend to be driven in part by work of other folks like themselves. E.g. I probably wouldn't be around were it not for contributions of Helios (LCV) or Farren Hayden (Enchanted Editor). Likewise, dev_akm and I drove each other somewhat -- he was doing cool stuff and that drove me to enhance Bash -- which allowed him to do even more cool stuff. So, if you take out enough top quality guys, you don't get replacement top quality guys -- rather the remaining top quality guys get bored and leave -- or rather just lack the inspiration to do something particularly cool.

Moreover, even if you look at really complicated mods where several modders can implement the same general idea, the truth is that mods are different enough that they're not really replaceable. OOO, Frans, TIE are all implementations of the "level stuff differently" idea, but they're all huge efforts and are radically different from each other. None of them is really a replacement for any of the others.

Hmmm... Poking through my mod list, the more I more look, the less replaceable most stuff looks. Ayleid Arrows. Hidden Skulls. Ivellon. UL series. Better Cities. See You Sleep. Runeskulls. Ayleid Steps. Pestlient Afflictions. Alternate Peryites Realm. Ravenwear Clothing. Elegant Vests. TNR. UOP. Clocks of Cyrodiil. Etc.

In short, this whole "You can be replaced, so get over it." idea just rubs me the wrong way.


What strikes me as so odd about this comment is that it's so out of place. It's just bizarre. I think that it's pretty notable about this community (especially these days) is that this is NOT the case. If I think of just about all the leading "huge project" modders and mod leaders (who are active here), just about all of them are quite open to working with other mods and not being the center of the universe. OOO has been fixed and extended after Soto left. Ditto with MMM after Martigen left. FCOM is a huge integrative effort with manu contributors. UL is a huge effort with a number of authors and with a number of patches available for many mods. Better Cities, huge mod with huge number of patches/fixes for other mods. Cobl, huge effort with contributions from many modders and actively integrated into many mods. Moderator: Please do not make personal attacks, or even imply the intent of other posters to do so.

But yeah, we certainly do feel proud of what we've done. But it's been a LOT of work and we've succeeded pretty brilliantly. Of course we feel proud.

PS: And it's not like our egos are out of control, I mean, we don't think of ourselves as gods! (Well... "I" - yes. "We" - no. )

Actually, it's more like when I cook Sunday lunch. I make whatever I personally feel like eating, knowing that Him Indoors will eat it anyway. If I wasn't in the house, he'd make himself some food and not really think anything of it. He loves my cooking, and appreciates my cooking, but I don't get to use my lasagne as some sort of bargaining chip - "Well, after all, I did make you lasagne!" as though I was doing him some sort of favour. I made it because I wanted it and it's great that he likes it too. (Just like when he cooks, he makes whatever he wants to eat without a second thought as to what I want). It's not like I've gone out of my way just to do something he likes because I'm such a philanthrope. If I ever tried to throw it at him that I'd "gone to all that effort", he'd quite fairly reply with, "Well, I didn't ask you to!"

Yes, some mods and tools are unique - and it shouldn't be inferred that I'm not appreciative that those tools exist - but I'm constantly astonished by hubris that some modders (not you) have with regard to their mods, as though they ought to get the Nobel Prize for Mod-Making or something. It's your hobby. You did it for you.


Well, again I can only point to the literally-hundreds of modders who have left over the years and been quickly and easily replaced by someone else who just picks up and carries on. (Like the clock mod you mentioned for Oblivion - there were various clock mods for Morrowind, each taking the idea of its predecessor and tweaking it and improving it in some way).

Modding is not a monarchy but a relay race. You quite fairly point to all the modders who do collaborate and work together and raise the bar as a whole through collective endeavour. Good. That is the minimum for which we should be aiming. You say modders should be proud of what they've - we've - achieved. I say we can do better. I say we must do better.

Someone else mentioned Grumpy in this thread. He was a unique figure in the community, and it would be inappropriate - not to mention inaccurate - to say that he has been "replaced". As to his legacy, though? Emma picked up on his half-finished works and completed them for release. From his original template have sprung a dozen other versions, each more sophisticated than the last. Almost every element of his original script has been expanded, improved, honed and streamlined. Companions do things now that I doubt Vorwoda_the_Black would ever have conceived was even possible back in the pre-Tribunal days. As each quest-modder or companion-maker moves on, another picks up the torch, takes the best ideas, and moves them forward. When it came to Oblivion, CM Partners didn't even have to think about what a companion needed, because we knew that from Morrowind, and jumped straight in with a "template" moving Grumpy's torch over the border to Cyrodiil. Now we have Viconia and Ruin and several other "Grumpy-and-Emma-level" companions for Oblivion. Good. That's the biggest contribution Grumpy made - more than anything else - that spirit of let's-all-work-together-to-improve things. We need more. We need more Julans and Constances - companions with genuine and memorable personalities. We need more houses like Belda Elysium and creatures like Mr_Siika's. TIE looks awesome, but it's geared towards thieves - are there mods like that for every character type? Would any of those mods have been possible without the mods that went before? Are any of those mods the pinnacle of what we think we can achieve? If those mod-makers move on, will we flounder and mourn or pick up that torch, again, and see what else we can do?

Before I draw this rantlet to a close, I also want to mention how it makes me feel when I too am the recipient of "gosh-aren't-you-great" praise in my threads. Embarrassed. Sure, I love it when people say, "That looks nice," but when people go on about how utterly awesome I am ( ) it just makes me go like this
If you want to "thank" a modder, just use and enjoy what they do. If it's a utility, use it to make something as good as you can get it. If it's a resource, do something good with it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so don't be afraid to take their best ideas and then go one better if you can. Modders don't need your worship; they just need that bar to keep going up to spur them on continually towards improving their game.

I (mostly) disagree. There are a range of motivations amongst modders and even for the same modder for different projects. But I think that most mods that are released go substantially beyond the "leftovers" analogy of your Sunday lunch. Basically just cleaning it up, adding a decent readme, and then posting and supporting a mod in a forum adds a decent amount of work that requires something beyond "leftovers" motivation. E.g scanning my mods:
* Summon Bed: Pretty much just a leftover. Simple mod, doesn't require much documentation, etc. Just go somewhere, read something and your done.
* Salan's Cellar: Close to leftover, but I still added about eight hours of effort to get it released (minor quest docs, better coding, etc.)
* Combat Fumbling: About 20% added effort to support other users.
* Wrye Bash, Mash, Cobl: Huge. Way beyond what I would need or do for myself. If I were just doing this for myself, then none of this would exist.

As for why modders do stuff for other people... We're social animals. It's in our nature to interact with other people, to do favors and to receive favors, to do great (and small) things and to be recognized and appreciated for it. There's also technical accomplishment -- e.g. while I wouldn't do much of what I did just for myself, there's the accomplishment that comes from having done it -- and from being appreciated for that. This is basically one of the major glues of civilization. Or as one of the guys on Sports Center put it, "I forgot why I was doing this, why I was coming in here, putting in the hours, knocking myself out. And for what? But now I've remembered. It's to impress the chicks."

But the main tensions with this are:
1) The tension in yourself over the time you spend on the activity. All dedicated modders face the question of whether they're spending too much time doing it. That's pretty much something you have to resolve yourself. Users will keep asking for more. It's up to you to figure out when to say "No".
2) Then tension between a given modder and the rest of the community in how well his/her contributions interact with the rest of the modding world. Which ties back into (1), because more compatibility (usually) takes more time.
3) The tension between how much respect we feel we're due and how much the rest of the community is willing to give us. Here there are issues of how appreciative the community is (i.e. are they actually thankful for the mod? or do they just regard it as a given and an invitation to demand extra features?) -- and if they are appreciative, how explicit are they (e.g. my dictum that "A quiet user is a happy user."). There's also the issue of how accurately a modder judges his/her own work -- i.e. how accurately they evaluate it against the contributions of other modders.

I think that what you're largely speaking to is the last -- that modders are expecting more respect than they're actually due. But I'm just not seeing that in todays community.

My latest pet peeve: people using my mods and if something goes wrong never contacting me or Shavn about it. Let us know! We'll work on it with you!
That is frustrating. I can't follow every thread in here. If you have an issue with one of my companions post it in their thread here or post it over on tesnexus!

<shakes fist>

I agree with the entire premise of this post. I have been around here for quite some time and have used countless mods for Oblivion, Morrowind, and now Fallout 3. I have also made a couple none o which were released because of unreasonable demands by some of the users, me not wanting to make "lore friendly" things, and my general laziness. lol

I want to thank all mod makers for their work. Its their hobby and everything they give the community is a gift.

Thanks again

True to the very core.

I really wish people were more forthcoming with issues they find with my mods.

You put it alot more eloquently than I could have....

Part of the reason might be due to the inflated egos of some modders. It can be very difficult to give advise/critism when a modder seems to think that they are better than a "mere" player. We are supposed to be a community here, not a hierarchy.

A few weeks ago I discovered a bug in a mod, so I posted the problem in this form. The mod was immediated fixed, for which I thanked the modder. Then I offered some suggestions/critisms on how a specific portion of the mod was being handled. The end result was that I was verbally (and publicly) flogged here by this modder - due to my "insufficient gratitude."

In short, I work just as hard in doing what I do (testing and reviewing mods) as any modder - yet I was treated like a second-class citizen on this form (by this modder). Modders are not gods. This confrontation and the way that I was treated upset me so much that I came close to just throwing up my hands, closing down my website, and walking away.

This attidude (of a few modders) has perhaps made some players a bit wary of play testing and providing feedback. I know that it made me very hesitant to give any kind of feedback for a while. I also know that this particular modder will no longer receive any feedback from me.

I've spent a lot of time in programming communities, and giving criticism, but I'm certainly less willing to do it here, I've seen a lot of people take it the wrong way. I can certainly see why, being told your work is crap isn't nice, but nobody's calling their work crap, they're just saying some things haven't been done perfectly. I think more people should remember that, yes, you do we players a great service, but we can also help you make stuff better. If you don't want to, say so, if the player takes offence, they can always just open your mod up in the CS and make it what they want, eh?

As a mod maker my enjoyment simply comes from adding to the game, once I stopped sharing my work my enjoyment levels increased exponentially, production quantity too for that matter.

By involving others it’s in my nature to at least try and give them what they want, once I removed others from the equation everything immediately got much simpler.

I think if there were no OOO which would mean no FCOM..I would hate oblivion on inhumane levels. If there were no OBSE which means no OblivionXP, I would stop playing around lvl20.

If there were no UOP, I would NOT play Oblivion at all.

Sorry, I don't buy the whole "Modders aren't essential" bullcrap either.

I never had to ask for "additions". Usually what they put out is quite enough - then again I'm a "don't need much to please" kind of person. And one of things I do not like about mods that keep getting customander addages is that it degrades the fun factor of the mod itself.

Some of us frequently mention RL, aka Real Life. For me, this term implies two things. First: whatever we are doing here, be it as a modder, mod user or forum user, is always less important than our 3D physical world. Because that Real world and our well-being in it, is a prerequisite for being able to play and mod games and voice our opinions on forums -if you can't pay for your hardware and an internet connection, or if you're blind and thus cannot even play, then this whole business does not exist.
Second: what goes on here is not 'real', at least not as real as aforementioned 3D world. It is virtual. I'm not dealing with real people here, only with nicknames, avatars, and texts on a screen. Any girl may be a boy, anyone posing as a kid may be a senior -I'll never know. Therefore, any Ego being hurt here is a virtual Ego, yours as well as mine, and you can only hurt or offend me if I forget who I really am and what is really important to me, and if I choose to put my identity in this dumb online persona presenting itself als 'Ervvyn'. Thus, if anyone tries to offend me, I'll simply say "Thank you, I love you too", and shrug it off. Being better or inferior, being more important or less, it does not matter now, and never will. This modding and foruming is as much a game in a virtual world as Oblivion is, and thus any ensuing ego- or hurt-feelings-problems are virtual problems.
Come on, shut your Windows, switch off your rig, open the door and step into the world; feel some real wind in your face, real rain, real sun warmth. Yes. That's Real Life ... how could we forget?

I agree with most of your first part, and understand what you are saying . . . although I personally consider everything I do to be part of my real life.

But I totally disagree with your second part. Perhaps thats just the way that I'm put together, but this forum is NOT a virtual world . . . it is a place to communicate and share with others.

This forum is not a game world, it is a community of people who have come together because of a common interest. And I have some friends here, whom I care about.

For me, posting here it is just as real as talking on my phone . . . after all, members here are not just a bunch of mindless bots.
So, like any form of communication, people in these forums need to respect each other and be aware that we all have real feelings (apparently some of us more than others).

I take people at their word . . . in my opinion, if you not being honest on a forum about who you are, it is still a lie.

BTW: my real name is Arwen, it is not just my nick (even though you may not care).

EDIT: Off topic really, sorry.

The most irritating part of mod making is, well in my case, I see so many people asking for new lands, new creatures, more to explore, distant lands, new quests, towns, cities and villages. I spend months on creating this in the hope that some of these "want" types will say, "wow thats great, now I'll do my bit." Then I find barely anyone willing to commit time to make it happen.

Its like listening to people say they dont like the food thats being cooked for them but when they are offered the ingredients they cant be bothered to crack even a 67b8 n egg!

I dont really want thanks and Kudos, I dont really want to be remembered as the guy who gave birth to Mesogea, I just want people to double click the construction set and give it a go. Few do, but they still go about asking for whats already being offered on a silver platter, just that they might have to pick up a knife and fork.

Most modders dont want kudos, they want to see the mod being used.

I don't agree here. Am I a bad modder because I did not make a Release thread here or somewhere else? Are you a better modder because everybody knows about you and your mods? Is it important for you to be e-famous?




That would be me. I don't care about others opinions and wether I am known or not.
Though if someone requests something and I can do it I do it.




Whoah... O.O Is that true? Why? O.O



Yes, I agree. Some mods are a must. Mods, not modder.
No, if someone leaves and makes his work FFA someone else will step in. Sorry, no person is irreplacable.



What's HoF?
edit: Okay, makes sense.




Exactly.
I started modding with the release of OB. Or shortly after I played a bit. Back then, there were a dozen or less mods in that category of my mod. I got several thousand downloads. Nowadays a new version release of my mod results in like 50-60 downloads. Not much. Another mod which started as a small request on this forum got hundreds/thousand downloads with 5-10 minutes of work. I work on my mod since... 3 years (release of OB)? If I would care about downloadcount I would stop modding and delete my mod from the sites.



Yep, exactly.



Tesnexus is doing that with "tags".

This is an interesting thread. I'll pipe in with my own humble opinion.

I appreciate all modders, just for the fact that they are attempting to help people make their games better. It doesn't matter to me "why" they mod. Maybe they do it for themselves, maybe they do it for recognition, to each his own. Regardless, I try to offer my kudos and support for those mods I enjoy, simply because I read a lot of threads that are mainly dominated with issues/ problems, and I imagine it's nice to get a plain old thanks now and then.

If I'm using a mod and experience problems, I almost always report them to the modder. That is not to say, however, that I am demanding that they be fixed. As far as I'm concerned, the modder can fix them, or not, it is their mod, after all. If it's causing an issue in my game, I cannot fix it myself, or I find it too much to live with, I simply uninstall the mod and keep my eyes open for updates.

Bottom line, for me, is that it is not the duty of any other human being to make sure my life/ game/ internal organs run smoothly.. it is mine. Therefore, I take what I can, and make it work, or move on. I also create numerous mods for my own use, but have only relz'd one, and that one I do not draw attention to, for the simple fact that I do not think I accomplished some glorious be all/ end all epitome of righteousness.. I simply wanted to share something. That is not to say that I cannot recognize when someone does release some glorious work. That is also not to say that I do not appreciate the smallest additions to my game that someone was willing to share with me. I appreciate all kinds of things in a normal day. I try to be appreciative, without being fanatic, when possible.

I hope that came across clearly..

I believe it means Hall of Fame modder on Planet Elder Scrolls.

Thanks to Modders am able to create the perfect complete game from Bethesda's excellent products with their works of modding art.

Hail the Modders! They give us freely what we always wanted.

Let's think about the difference between regular end-users and players who install mods.

If you are willing to get a product, you will do some basic background research for it. If the manufacturer fails to supply the necessary information, you will either demand it or move onto a different product. If you have what you need, you will purchase it - and if it does not work as suggested, you most likely will be angry and contact the manufacturer to find out a solution or a settlement to the issue. Now, you want to do the same with modding.

WRONG.

As a customer, you pay the price and purchase - or obtain the rights - to the product. The manufacturer is there to earn money with the product, so if it does not work as advertised, they solely take whole responsibility for it. Even if the end-user didn't read the manual and did something wrong, they will try mostly to cover it for them. That is because end-users are customers, of which they obtain the profit from. (Unless the end-user did something completely mindless or reckless so they are to blame nobody but themselves)

Do we pay something in return for the mods we download? No. Then what gives us the right to say about the modder's work?

The modder does it for either self-satisfaction, or because they find it happy to share something they like with different people. They can always stop modding and leave it if they feel it's becoming more of a tedious task than pure fun. Why does a modder who created an OBSE-requiring mod has to explain how to install OBSE?

If you choose to play with mods, that means you wish to change the product that you have obtained the rights for by paying the price. From that point, the whole responsibility is yours. YOU MOD AT YOUR OWN RISK. Of course you are required to learn the very basic of how a mod works or what you need to run them. There's nothing wrong if you ask a question about how Wrye Bash won't run under Windows Vista x64 or on a Windows of different language, since that's more of a technical problem. But asking how to install Wrye Bash from the very scratch even without taking a look at the readme because it's too long and complicated? Give me a break.

Learn and participate. That way you earn the rights to enjoy something a modder decides to share with you. Otherwise, kiss modding goodbye and go play vanilla.

Agreed, but I'm quite sad that you chose to share what was presumably supposed to have been a private conversation. That's just not on.


See, there's an attitude that I never understand.

I just do not believe that there's such a thing as a game that sucks that you can add a couple of mods and suddenly it's great. I think you really have to love a game to want to add mods to it, and to make mods for it. In other words, it's like the game gives 99% and you put in the other 1%. I wouldn't dream of modding, say, BioShock because I just don't care enough about it to want to do that.

I really didn't enjoy OOO, so I can't really agree with you on that on, and I didn't even bother to try FCOM because of the faff of installing it. Don't get me wrong, I can see why other people might like it, but I don't see how it can take you from hating a game to loving it.

Stop playing around level 20? You're supposed to stop playing around level 20! You've pretty much maxed out your levels by the time you hit level 15! Realistically, that's given you way more time than you really need. Certainly by level 15 I'd explored the map, done the main quest, plus Shivering Isles, plus many of the sidequests. I wasn't going to be head of all the factions - just follow one or two storylines per character - so really once you've done that, again way below level 20, it's just time to start a new game.

It's like accusing Morrowind of being "boring" because it stops being fun at level 50. It's less fun at level 50 because you've reached the end of the game. It's like if you step off Vvardenfell and keep walking on the water, at first there's things to see and rocks and islands and then you start to run out of rocks and islands and creatures and eventually there's just ... nothing. You might not be prevented from just walking indefinitely, but you can't blame them that they didn't create an infinite worldspace.

Given the crashing problems I had with MWSE, there was simply no way I'd install OBSE. Maybe it's really good and I'm missing out on something amazing (and really stable!) but it's just not a risk I'm willing to take right now, especially when I'm enjoying the game pretty much as it is.

It's funny: for no clear reason, my Eyecandy bodies suddenly disappeared from my game. I don't know why, but I went to change my clothes, and suddenly I just had the default body back. At first, I was really upset and disappointed, but then I thought, "How often do I really need to look at my character's body? Is it still not a really fun game regardless of what my char looks like?" and I carried on playing and I'm still having a really amazing time re-playing Shivering Isles. Yes, mods can really enhance my game-playing experience, but if I can do without my favourite mod - which of course I don't get to have at all on my console copy - then I can do without any other mod.


I don't accept any distinction between "real life" and how you behave on a forum. That's like saying you're not the same person every time you pick up the telephone. You are still a real person interacting with another real person, and if you try to pretend that you're not that person, you're basically telling a lie. Worse, if you distinguish between an online persona and your real self, you give yourself licence to do the things that you would never do in real life - like be rude and aggressive and hostile to people, because they're somehow "not real".

I think it comes as a big shock to people when the moderators here enforce rules that basically hold you to the same standards on this forum as you would be held to in real life. You do not get to be rude, aggressive, hostile, mean, nasty or cruel to other people without facing very serious consequences to that behaviour. If you'd get fired for doing it at work, chances are you'd get banned for doing it on this forum.


I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you take that attitude. It's best to assume that, no, they never will say "wow that's great, now I'll do my bit". Best to assume that nobody will ever help you, and that - certainly statistically speaking - the majority of players just aren't that interested in your idea.

Just make something that you want to make, for the sheer joy of creating, that you would like to have in your game, and then just make it available for other people to use if they want to. You might be pleasantly surprised by how many people enjoy it, or by how much the few that enjoy it really like it, which is always rewarding but should never be your whole motivation.


I agree and disagree with that one. I don't think there's any issue of "rights" or "customers" at all on this one.

Modders are like members of a theatre group in an amateur dramatics production, and we're all in it together in this hobby because we want to see the finished play - the modded game - come to fruition. There are those who want to take centre-stage, and those who prefer to work in the sidelines. There are those who sit around in a circle and have group improv sessions, and there are those who just wander in without collaborating with the others and say, "I wrote this new chorus for the song, would you like to hear it?"

They each have their place, and none is more important ultimately than the other. Even the audience is important, but no member of that cast should be acting just for the adulation or the promise of fame because - more than anything - they're going to be sorely disappointed when they're just playing to their dad and the ice-cream girl.

The person who wrote the song is in the place that many - if not most - modders are in. They just wrote something because they wanted to write it and they thought others might like to hear it. They present it to the others to be accepted or rejected, and while if someone shouts out, "Did you consider doing it like this?" they might think that it's a great idea and change it accordingly, they're equally likely to say, "Actually, I like it the way I did it, so if you still don't want to use it, that's fine too."

You get actors who come in and they're really good and everyone flocks to see them, and they're great, but the play is always bigger than they are. If they fall down the stairs and break both their legs, there's always an understudy and the show will go on.

Then you get the collaborators who do the improv sessions and a lot of the time that's really cool and some great things come out of that, but it doesn't automatically make it a more valuable contribution than what everyone else has to offer.

Ultimately, the play is the thing ...

If we modders did this for ourselves then I would be playing Mesogea myself and having a whale of a time. I wouldnt bother spending money on a site to make it available. Some modders look at the forums, listen to peoples gripes then set out to make something to satisfy themselves and fill a percieved gap. Then to have the work ridiculed or ignored....

Well, they wont make a second mod will they.

Sorry, I didn't mean to do anything wrong, as I was careful to only post the most-general/less-personal part of the pm.

I just edited my former post and removed the pm quote entirely.

Thanks, Arwen


Uhhh ... why not? You chose to make a mod because you wanted to. Nobody employed you to do so, and you did it as a hobby. You spent money on a site? Well, all hobbies cost money, but you really didn't need to do that. There are literally hundreds of places you could have uploaded that for free.

People ridiculed it? Well, if they were rude to you, they broke this forum's rules and you should have reported it.

They ignored it? Well, the simple answer is that they never asked you to make it in the first place, so they're certainly not obligated to use something that you chose to make. Even if it was a request mod, the only person obliged to download it is the person who requested it, and they're perfectly entitled to say that actually it wasn't really what they'd envisaged and though they're grateful for your efforts they're just not going to use it in their game.

The only way you're guaranteed to get exactly what you want is to make it yourself. I've unchecked countless mods because even though they were nice and well-made, they just aren't the sort of things I want in my game - and that's the good ones. I've unchecked plenty of utter rubbish ones, too, for which I didn't feel grateful to the modder for their kindness and generosity - more just vague disappointment that I'd wasted my bandwidth on installing the poxy thing. I don't have the "right" to rag on them for not making very good mods, though - or to demand to the able-but-acquired-taste ones that they change their mods.

There's basically no correlation: they make their mods and release them. I download them and use them or not use them. There's no causality between the two. Just because I don't like it is my "part", just because they wanted to make it that way is their "part". It's not like I go into New Look, hold up a shirt there and say, "This colour is ugly!" If I don't want that shirt, I don't buy that shirt, and if I buy the shirt and realise it's a bad colour on me, I don't complain about it, I just stop using it.

(With regard to actual faults, then yes, you as a user do have some sort of moral obligation to report that - just as if you find a fly in your soup, you should tell the waiter in case other patrons are suffering likewise.)

You're really on a roll here, PS! I like everything you've said.

But I like my soup fly as I hear a wonderful song going:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqpLF-KS8BI

Yes many a creative beyond imagination mod artist has succumbed to the bullying of one or two malcontents and denied the much more numerous but not as vocal who love such works the pleasure of their creations.

I certainly appreciate the modders work.
I try to promote the work in my signature.
I have seen many undue complaints (whining),
but also constructive criticism (which I have not done but probably should, if the modder requests bug findings and such).
many mods have exceeded my expectations (e.g. Lost Paladins of the Divines).

Mod request: A two-handed weapon that looks like a giant yellow exclamation point.

i have to say i can see the reason you get angry about this. but i think most people like the mods being released and don't complain to much. but some people don't take the time to ask the questions. or get confused when something does not work and no one will help them when they ask so they get mad and start complaining. but i like all the work you are doing thank you

Personally, I like your metaphor of calling modding a large theater play. That said...

What I was mentioning (and the OP as well, I believe) was that some audience does not try even to a minimal extent to acknowledge their part in the play. As you have mentioned, the modders will gain motives from the reaction of the audience. But what if the crowd refuses to stay quiet when the curtain rolls up? What if they start asking why there are intermissions and they have to wait to see what's coming up next? Even worse, when they say "Just bring it on already!" or "Your acting is hideous, you better take some acting schools before you return to stage"? What if the play is an opera and the audience tries to enter with no shirts and shoes, but only with a pair of torn jean shorts? What if they ask where to buy the tickets to the actors that are performing on the stage?

Some actors might wish that the audience would try to learn more about how much work actors put for a single run and what's going on behind the screens. Some audience will think that knowing how a spotlight works and how much time was invested to find the sweet spot of an actor's dramatic entry doesn't make a play more enjoyable. I see both as a natural part of human nature and thus totally understandable.

Nevertheless, it is hard for the actors to accept that the few who refuse to stay quiet during the act and never applaud the actors are the same audience as everyone else who keeps it civil.



Players chose to download a mod because they wanted to. Nobody employed them to do so, and they did it as (an extension of) their hobby.

As I have previously said, If they don't want to, they can just play vanilla. Otherwise, they mod at their own risk.

Great points with plenty of commonsense showing the difference of buying a product and using a free one.

Wow, lol. Read this from start to finish, lot of good points all around. Just my 2 septims. I started playing Oblivion little over 2 years ago. As a big fan of the Elder Scrolls, I was really disappointed to learn about the vanilla leveling system. The size of the dungeons compared to Daggerfall was also a little underwhelming. First thing I did was look around for something to change the leveling system. My search lead me to OOO, and I was hooked on mods after that. I think that without mods, the game would still be fun, but wouldn't have nearly as much replay value. I remember playing on my first character, and falling in love w/ all of the world details and quest writing.

Without any mods, I would still have enjoyed the random encounter of walking into an Inn and finding the 'Potato Snatcher' quest. That said, w/out the aforementioned big mods (plus a great many little ones), I think the Oblivion world would stop being unique very quickly. Sure the quest writing is entertaining, and walking around the forests is nice. But it would never change, and eventually just lose the appeal. I make an effort to contact the authors of mods I use whenever I can. Just let them know 'I use this mod, and it made my game better, thank you'.

In short, I think that people might get a little over-zealous when it comes to mods/authors. Those who use mods do so b/c they want the game to be better than it is, and are very passionate about that feeling, if not always articulate. I imagine that's part of what drives a number of authors as well. Would I play w/out mods? Absolutely. Would I play for as long as I have? Definitely not.

Six words.
In six words, you summed up the entire thread.
Well said princess_stomper.


As for Oblivion not being playable without mods, I have to disagree.
Would I still play Oblivion if it couldn't be modded? Definitely! It's an awesome game.
Although I wouldn't enjoy it nearly as much as I do with all the tricked out content added by some pretty awesome modders.

This sums up rather well what mods mean to me. Would I still play without mods.....no. I would play the game through once or twice after buying it and then get bored because nothing changes, I know everything that is in there and that can be done in the game. On the shelf it goes. This was the case with Morrowind for me until I accidentally discovered mods. Mods give me an almost different game over and over again.

I can't say that the loss of a modder is no big deal as each modder brings a certain uniqueness that cannot be replaced. To use an example...Korana.

I have seen thousands of house mods over the last three years, but I have not seen any decorated in the manner that Korana does. Her unique touches are what makes up her style. No one else decorates a house the same way she does. I can recognize her homes a mile away.

The same goes for so many modders that have released more then one house, I can recognize their style a mile away. If Korana left...sure there would still be a Princess Stomper house or a Vince house or a Shezrie house or an Exilehunter house or a Bond style house. But there would never be a Korana style house again. They all put their personality into their mods and while their style might be emulated, it cannot be recreated exactly. Each modder adds something unique regardless of whether the idea has been thought of or even implemented before, because each modder applies their unique vision to it in a way only they can. So when a modder leaves it does leave a hole in the modding community that cannot be filled because that individual style has gone. Hopefully I am making sense here.

The same can be applied to all mods, each modder contributes their unique style and vision.

Regarding feedback. We all do need to look at how we are coming across when we give feedback. If I discover major issues with a mod I will generally pm them to the modder simply because going to the thread and giving a long list of faults with the mod can understandably put a modder on the defensive. From the modder's perspective your long list of faults may be misunderstood by many downloaders reading that thread who don't understand that the list of errors are not major game breaking ones and are scared away from downloading that mod unnecessarily. So when I give feedback I publicly report small issues like floating pathgrids or that NPC not doing what they should. But when there are major issues the modder is pm'd. Whether it is right or wrong to do this... ...I just do it because as a modder this is how I would feel more comfortable with feedback.

Oh dear, this thread again. I'd so hoped that this monstrosity would stay at the bottom of the ocean. Ah well...

Just a few random comments, to address some concerns raised here:

Issue #1: "Mods may not be replaceable, but their modder's are!"
Comment #1: In a way I'm reminded of the Morrowind intro. "Each event is preceded by prophecy. But without a hero, there is no event."

Shortly after Oblivion's release, in 2006 still, Mighty Magick was released. A controversial mod - many were dissatisfied with Oblivion's magic system, but didn't also like the drastically changed balance in the opposite direction Mighty Magick created. In May 2007, about a year later, Supreme Magicka appeared. Within hours it had thousands of downloads. There was a very huge demand for it. Shortly thereafter LAME was released, also a big success, having had the same goal in mind like Supreme Magicka. Today, all download locations combined, both mods have close to 200.000 downloads. A lot. A huge demand, which was - for those remembering the old threads - even apparent in Mighty Magick's release thread: Many people asked for a concept of magic which later was employed by Supreme Magicka and LAME.
Yet in one year, despite a huge demand, no one actually did anything before FireFlightFlea and myself came along. Why? Was it difficult? Tell you what, no, it wasn't. Well, some stuff that was later included in these mod was quite difficult, but the essence, those that was requested for over a year, was a cakewalk. The icing of the cake, that's what takes the time. Those unique features, which often weren't even requested. The concept of magic behind? A matter of very few weeks, if done right. If done hastily, days. The core of what was later released as LAME I put together in a fit of frustration in one day. Yet no one took up the challenge for a year. Again, why?

Following Oblivion's release OOO was released, a place centric overhaul still popular today. It inspired mods like FCOM, inspired quest modders to create more balanced and challenging encounters instead of reverting to Oblivion's default formula, and many things more. Despire a lot of criticism it's still the only place centric overhaul. More so, the core of what OOO is today is OOO 1.3, which was released in late 2006. Soto had to retire, and dev_akm took responsibility for OOO, since then OOO was fine tuned, many glitches fixed, some features enhanced - but it's still true to Soto's vision, to the point where the OOO 1.34 you play today in early 2009 is in large parts game wise identical to the OOO of late 2006 (although a lot more polished behind the scenes ). It still doesn't even cover Shivering Isles. Why? And why has no other place centric overhaul appeared, despite a lot of people time and again requesting one and mentioned their disdain for OOO? Again, why?

Each modder has a certain kind of "insanity", a vision and maybe even an obsession that drives him or her. For some it's quite small, and what they create is maybe possible to substitute. Just look at the high number of "no glow" mods . When it comes to artistic works, it begins to become harder to substitute, just compare the numerous map mods. Not one is in any way like the other. House mods, even more uniqueness.

And when it comes to the really big projects, sorry to say, but if you think their modders can be replaced you're out of your mind. And not the 'good' "modder's insanity" which drives them to create massive mods. Simply as it is, a modder with a scope broader than "thirty minutes tweak in the CS" is not replaceable, can't be substituted. The number of above examples can be expanded to hundreds of mods, all of which their creators are as essential as the mod itself - because if it weren't for them, the mod wouldn't exist. Those mentioned are only some of the most prominent examples, the most jarring ones.


Issue #2: Mod lists.
Comment #2: I think Arwen does a fantastic work - more so, even a necessary work. Working on mods is one thing, but players have an entirely different perspective. One that shouldn't be ignored. There are thousands of thousands of mods available, an overwhelming number for new and returning players. How to choose which ones you'd like to use? Better asked, how to know about mods you'd like to play?

Mod lists play a major role in this. That's why "Aelius' list of mods", despite it's flaws, was so popular. They help players to find a way through the unbelieveable amount of mods. Without mod lists new players are going to be lost, having to spend not only days, but weeks to even get a working configuration to start playing. And then likely even miss the highlights of modding.
There's also the issue that I think, yes, mod list creators should comment on the mods they recomment. Here again A's list of mods comes into play: He recommended mods which couldn't be used together, which even had some severe issues and other problems. He didn't play the mods he recommended, and he just listed everything that sounded cool to him. Bad for players listening to his recommendations. It was a list true to it's name, listing mods, but it couldn't be used as a recommendation.
On the other hand a lot of commented mod lists show that their writers played the mod in question, therefore giving players useful advices. Yes, this can even mean that there will be some negative comments added to mods. Example given recommending FCOM to a player new to Oblivion? Well, FCOM is probably one of the best things ever happened to Oblivion, but installing it will be very time consuming and can be challenging - it's made for the experienced players, so why not mention it?



Issue #3: Advertisement.
Comment #3: A question asked - even directed at me (probably the reason I'm writing here at all. I do not like this thread, I consider it to be probably the worst that has happened to the Oblivion modding scene in a very long time) - was if it makes a worse modder out of someone if he / she doesn't advertise mods.

Well, the answer is as simple as ambivalent: It doesn't matter. Use of advertisement has nothing to do modding skills, it's likely a zero correlation. There are some good modder with good advertisement, some good modder with bad advertisement, some bad modder with good advertisement (usually forum opinions here are the "last line of defense" against them, see next issue), and bad modders with bad advertisement. Like I said, there's likely no correlation between modding skill and advertisement used.

Nevertheless let's see the context: It was asked if mod users can even expect mod makers to make any sorts of advertisements. What I said in response was, in essence, "how else should potential mod users know about it?"
Maybe there is the often requested place centric scaling overhaul alternative to OOO sitting on an obscure website to download, but the problem is that no one knows about it, so for all intents and purposes the mod doesn't exist. That's what I once called the "hidden gem problem" - some modders release absolutely great mods, which would enrich the game of many people, yet only few know about them.

If you only mod for yourself and a few close friends, and you don't use mods of strangers, and you only upload them as courtesy so that they're available, then it may not matter to you. But for mod users (again perspective switch!) it would be a hell of a modding scene if everyone would act like this, because it will make it extremely difficult for them to find what they're looking for. They won't even know if that what they're looking for exists.

Now why did I bolded a certain "and" above? Imho courtesy: If you use anything that was made known to you through means of release threads, tesnexus download pages or other means, then you should at least make a small attempt to also present your work. That's what sharing is about - not only taking, but also giving. Not even informing potential other contributors that something is available, well, as I've said: If something isn't known, it's as if it doesn't exist. At least I as a mod user, besides being a modder, would feel bad if I only take and not give back to those people enrichting my game.



Issue #4: Did it really happen that people were banned at other locations for pointing out existing issues?
Comment #4: Yes, it happened. That's why I consider the Bethsoftforums as a "last line of defense" against bad mods - here's one of the places where at least some people will tell you if a mod will likely screw up your game, or a mod will conflict with other mods you're running despite the author claiming otherwise. You can say a lot negative stuff about these forums, but still it's a place where a lot people with actual knowledge are present, and which will also give out warnings if warnings are necessary and in order (e.g. the whole "he-who-must-not-be-named" incidents - which also had quite their share of people getting banned for pointing out issues at other locations).



Issue #5: Where to go from here?
Comment #5: While largely absent in Oblivion or Morrowind, making choices can result in consequences which were not intended. Wrye pointed out a tension in each modder "over the time you spend on the activity. [...] Users will keep asking for more. It's up to you to figure out when to say "No".". I'm speaking for myself here, but I've also heard the same sentiments from some other people also caused by this very thread: The more popular opinions become that are talking down contributions, then the more likely I'm going to push the investment balance in my favor (to the detrimental of people asking for just about anything). If you support opinions going against moving the community as a whole forward, going against contributing for the benefit of all, then you shouldn't be surprised when exactly the mindset you support gets the upper hand.

Think about the consequences of your actions. If you don't act yourself, think about the consequences of opinions you support. If everything comes down to "a modder shouldn't look above his own cup", then exactly this may happen. In the last month I've seen some rather (for me) disturbing opinions being not only uttered, but also widely supported - by low to non-contributors aimed against major contributors and contributions. In them the danger lies that at some point people actually contributing and trying to move things forward instead of talking them down say "forget it from now on! Whatever you want, the answer is no!"

edit: NVM, delete me.

im actually in the opposite camp. you can read thread upon thread about how something is impossible or will never be done because it it too difficult to implement and then BAM! one day someone releases a mod that does just that. although i dont play oblivion anymore since i switched to fallout its amazing how many mods pop up that you didnt think you needed until you actually used them.

I’ve been following this thread since the beginning and applaud those who have participated in a relatively thoughtful discussion thus far on a subject that could easily spin out of control. The one sentiment that seems misplaced is this idea that “modders are replaceable”. In my time on the forum, I have never read such a ludicrous opinion and I would like to add my two cents to the discussion.

Modders are first and foremost, artists. Modding anything beyond a simple tweak takes creativity, passion, and often bull headed determination. The instrument of their creation is imperfect, bugged, sensitive, and dodgy (imagine painting the Sistine Chapel with a toothbrush). Modders take things that have been seen a thousand times over in the vanilla game and bring something new to the users. Others have access to the same materials, but does that mean modders are “replaceable”?

To say modders are replaceable is a disgraceful and ludicrous opinion devoid of any fact. To subscribe to that belief is to say we, as human beings, are replaceable. Every modder is a human being, a symphony of their unique experiences, ideas, beliefs. When a human being is a modder and creates mods, they bring their unique experiences, ideas, and passions to their project. If that person is unable to continue and someone else picks up the mantle of completing it, it will not be the same project on release, since the mod is being completed by someone with different experiences, skills, tastes, and visions than the modder who started it.

Using my own project as the example, yes it’s true, any monkey with the CS could open up Sancre Tor and delete the garbage, monsters, raise the lights…etc. But without my story, my dedication to detail, my daily effort for nearly 2 years, my sacrifices (and you can ask my family about what I’ve sacrificed for modding), would there be another Reclaiming Sancre Tor? No. And the same can be said for any of this community’s great modders.
Does being irreplaceable make modders godlike and beyond reproach?

No, of course not. The point of my message is that we’re not modders, we’re people and fallible like everyone else. What mod users need to understand is that we are using a construction set not a wand, we can’t make our mods compatible with everything else, we can’t fix every problem that crops up, and we don’t have limitless quantities of time to devote to perfecting your load orders for you; mod users need to take some responsibility for their own happiness. As modders, we have a responsibility to our fans however; to do the best we can with the tools we do have. If you are a modder and have no interest in handling the fans, then don’t release because dealing with others’ issues, concerns, and questions is part of the deal.

@Gurgl- I quoted your statement here because your logic is failed. First you argue that when one modder drops out, others step in to continue a project. That is the minority of occurrences, the majority of projects who lose their lead die and stay dead. Those that are taken over, for reasons I gave above, will not result in the same project on release. Second you state there are substitutes for your project, then you add “None like mine, but still”. If none are like yours than there are no substitutes for your work; can’t have it both ways.

That’s my two cents, sorry it’s so long!

This hits the nail on the head, though in rare cirumstances a new modder may come and revive the project, I can use my project as an example:

TES4: Vvardenfell was a beyond Cyrodill mod over on the Silgrad Tower boards, due to their reasons the mod failed and finally fizzled out. It was lost, untill I decided to revive it, this only worked becuase of the support I had from fellow modders. This is a freak occurance and may happen once or twice,most of the time it does not.

I agree with you Darkrder, everything you said was just right

So I have to ask who was going to step up to the plate in creating a mod that functions like Wrye Bash?
Morrowind had similar problems to Oblivion in many ways that were simply accepted. The general census of opinion was that it was something that we had to live with.
Must I remind you that something as simple as adding a mod to your on going game resulted in numerous mysterious doors appearing, just one example of many cases of weirdness.
Or when removing even the tiniest of mods the game engine refusing to acknowledge it?
You had no option but to restart your game simply because the current one wouldn't load.
Then along came a guy called Wrye who made the impossible happen.
He created Wrye Mash and modded TES games were never the same again.

Guess what, he's got a similar utility for Oblivion. How would your game run without the considerable work the MonkeyGod has fired at his projects over the last five years?
Who else but Kivan and Quarn would spend two and a half years creating the two UOP's? Try playing Oblivion or it's expansion without these enabled. Your in for quite the shock.
I could go on with similar stories, but why bother?
If I don't do it, obviously someone else knows what I was going to say next and will finish where I left off.

As for your second comment??
Ugh
Try reading the phrase in the context in which it was meant.
You do of course realize when Aelius' List of Mods was compiled or last updated?
At the time it was the only list of it's type.
I shouldn't have to then expand on how invaluable this kind of information was to a modding community just finding it's feet with what was then a new game.



edit : Deleted comment. Wrye and Darkrder are quite correct.

No, Mate, as a community of modders we can't be afraid to see discussions like this one. We have an opportunity here to discuss as rational and reasonable people the opposing sides of these issues, which is why I decided to contribute. If we hide behind our moderators, modders and mod users alike will continue to expect too much from one another and stop seeing one another as people.

Darkrder: Agreed. These are real disagreements. I'd rather see them voiced then have the whole thing silenced. Better to know where people stand -- that way modders can make more informed decisions.

Guys, your probably right, but.......

@Darkrder: Agreed. Much rather see this discussed in the open than have it suppressed by moderation. All too often we forget who's behind all these online aliases. Real People.

On the whole replaceability issue. I'll simply add this quote from a post on my LOD water planes RELz:

It was something simple enough to do, yet in 3 years time nobody had done it. Since then I've had a few PMs and a couple of public comments about how people have been after a solution to the problem of water LOD for ages, and then suddenly BAM, here it is. And to further reinforce things, I myself would not have arrived at the solution I did had it not been for DaMage and Throttlekitty originally coming up with the water mesh I used as the basis for it.

So the idea that we're replaceable is just plain silly. Especially since in many cases we build on each other's ideas. If those foundations had not existed, there'd be nothing.

I hope you're not implying that you wouldn't be able to have a discussion like this here - respectfully and politely as we have been throughout this thread - for fear of being "suppressed" somehow.

I disgree with darkrdr and wrye, but that's fine. I mean, this is a debate thread. This isn't some release thread that spiraled into a "state of modding" argument - this is a state of modding argument and provided we don't start being really nasty to each other, that's fine. I mean, that is part of the very function of a forum isn't it? To facilitate discussion?

It's interesting the points you make (people in the past few posts), and I can certainly see where you're coming from, but it's like the "never make yourself indispensible" line at work. It's like when you've got one person and they leave and suddenly the next person comes in and they're really screwed because you haven't left very clear and detailed information on how they can pick up from where you left off. Leaving modding might not be a choice for some people - "real life" intervenes - so in one sense the nobody-can-be-replaced argument can be quite detrimental because it implies that nobody else can just pick up where you left and carry on. Again with the actor thing, if the show is always bigger than the actor, it leaves room for an understudy to step in at any point.

Yes, Korana is an example of a unique modder, but she also came very late into modding Oblivion. She has a unique touch to her mods, which is something we all enjoy, but in my mind she was "replaced" by Exilehunter, and even by me (I made my Battlehorn upgrade primarily for my own use because she wasn't around to do it) - but now she's back, it's great to have her back on the bill, as it were.

The other thing is that I just don't really see modders as artists. I mean, some are artists outside of modding, and those, I'd say, "Yeah, Westly's an artist", but when he releases a mod, much as I admire him and enjoy his mods, I don't think, "Wow, thank you for making this art for us," I think, "That's a pretty mod."
Westly is very generous with making requests, but if he couldn't make a request for me for whatever reason, I wouldn't think, "Oh no! I can't have this mod!" I'd think, "Oh well, I'll ask someone else to do it instead."
Sure, only Westly could make it exactly like Westly does it, but if someone else did it and they did it differently, I'm sure I'd be just as happy with that. In fact, the same happened in reverse - the first person I asked had a family emergency, and Westly stepped in to save the day.

In that sense - in my sense - that modder was "replaced". Not that she was unappreciated or that I wasn't delighted when she returned - but that in her absence, someone else gave us something not exactly the same but we could still enjoy it.

That is what I mean by "replaceable".

I'm too tired right now to bring the next logical point to the discussion, but if it makes you feel like you shouldn't bother if you feel like you could be replaced, then it does pose the question "why"? Is it that you are dependent on external validation rather than simply enjoying creativity for its own sake? (If you want to talk about undervalued, read Ashley Cheng's blog post on the Sistine Chapel - all the people who worked so hard on painting that ceiling and only one guy gets the credit - what artistically was in it for them other than the joy of creation?) Why is my opinion that you individually as an "artist" - rather than as a unique person, which of course I respect - are not more important than any other modder - more important than your own sense of self-worth? Why do you even care what I think? (If I was dissing you in your thread, that would be one thing - and enormously disrespectful - but saying that one (competent) modder is as good as any other is not an out-of-line thing to say in a general thread like this.)

That is the argument that is at the heart of this discussion, really: why are you modding? Because that will determine your reaction to how others perceive you and your mods.

His comment doesn't even imply that. Arthmoor was replying to another modder who asked that this entire thread be suppressed, and was stating that there wasn't a need for moderator action.



I don't understand how this is disagreeing with me. Not once did I imply anything of this nature. What I said was "I applaud those who have participated in a relatively thoughtful discussion thus far on a subject that could easily spin out of control." Could being the operative word, indicating that I did not believe it had.

I also said "as a community of modders we can't be afraid to see discussions like this one. We have an opportunity here to discuss as rational and reasonable people the opposing sides of these issues, which is why I decided to contribute. If we hide behind our moderators, modders and mod users alike will continue to expect too much from one another and stop seeing one another as people."

Again, not implying that this thread had spiraled. You are right though, it is an open discussion, you're as free to your opinions as I am to mine even if they disagree.



Really? You disagree that modders use modding as a medium to be artistic with models, textures, and unique stories? How is what we do any different than a sculptor who sculpts or a writer who writes?



Then perhaps you should have waited before posting into this discussion.



I mod, because I can and I enjoy it. I am an artist, and I enjoy flexing my artistic flair through this unique medium. However, I would say a person's character has more to do with how they react to conflict, more so than their motivations for modding. Regardless of why someone mods, there are those modders who will accept criticism with grace and those who will become defensive. It's the kind of person they are outside of this arena that will dictate how they will act within it.



I haven't seen anyone claim that one person is more important than any other; certainly no one in the last few posts has implied anything about you or your opinions personally. I was speaking in a general sense to address a message that was repeated by several people. In no way does your opinion weigh higher than my own measure of personal worth. My point was that we are equal, but equality does not make anyone replaceable. Perhaps, "replaceable" in any context is just a poor word choice as it bears negative connotations when referring to people and suggests that modders have no value. They do not have a greater value over one another, but they DO have value as unique individuals.



[Edit Reason] Tweaked, hopefully, for clarity.

Exilehunter is no longer modding, I recently found out. I will miss his mods, his unique style brought us mods such as Amaterasu No Yume. Such an idea may never have even been conceived off by another modder. Had he not made that mod we would have been unknowingly deprived of it's quality and uniqueness. I can't really see him as a Korana replacement as their styles differ so greatly. They are two very different modders each with their own unique vision. But I do get what you are saying Princess, about a modder as competent being considered a 'replacement'.

I do still think that no modder can really replace another because each modder has a unique style of their own. While there will always be another modder to make a house that can be compared in quality to the houses that another modder made, there will never be a house made in the unique style of that modder.

For years we (in the house modding area) have wanted a realistic house. Along comes Vince with the vision, the required skills and the time to create an incredible mod, Abandoned Mountain Shack. He implemented an idea that we all considered couldn't be done. It makes me wonder what his next great idea will be. If he leaves then we will never know what his next venture may have been and how it too would have pushed the boundaries of what was thought possible, or whether another modder will suddenly conceive the same idea that Vince would have conceived and created had he not left. While there are other modders creating incredible house mods, there would not be another Vince house with his unique vision and had he not done his house in the first place it is highly doubtful that another would have. After all in the last three years no one has.

I consider modding an art and modders artists. They create a vision on a 3D canvas. When I do my towns the layout and clutter are all artistically placed from a visual point to create a picture. Every item carefully placed to achieve the look I want. The layout for Pell's Gate was redone 23 times before I got a look I liked, for Woodland it was 15 times. For me modding is my artistic outlet and I think the same applies to all other modders.

-The texturer carefully painting on textures to achieve the envisioned look.
-The modeller sculpting a model.
-The world builder painting a 3D scene.
-The scripter creating an action or event through writing.

Each of these starts with a vision and then is created.

For me the loss of one of our modders is, the loss of a unique vision and potential ideas.

Value of Mods: I personally been playing quite a bit recently -- and it's not because of Bethesda's vanilla game, but rather because of some rather awesome mods and the integration between them. I've been particularly pleased with the Ayleid Steps -- which is an awesome mod in itself, but which also greatly enhances and interacts with other mods because it keeps dumping you in out of the way places. Which means that I'm finally seeing the results of UL Colovian Highlands (gorgeon and innovative), Colovian Hinterlands, Cloudtop Mountain. Plus I'm seeing all of the new life (rabbits, chickens, foxes, pahmer, durzogs) added by MMM. Plus I'm seeing more of the effect of magick from SM. And new weapons from Ayleid meteoric weapons. And.. etc. etc.

The experience has been cool enough that I started [OMPS] Oblivion Mod Playing Stories -- which has taken off nicely with some great stories. For the experience of players really appreciating mods -- OMPS is the place to go!

Mods vs. Vanilla: Now, Vanilla Oblivion is great game -- I certainly enjoyed it. But if that were all there was, I would have worn out my enthusiasm for it years ago. If I evaluate it vs. mods, I would say vanilla is like the bottom layer of a three layer cake. It's quite good, but mods multiply it's value by threefold or more.

Replaceability: I'm going to speak directly to aspiring, hard working modders here. You're not replaceable! If you knock yourself out and turn out a seriously cool mod, it's not going to be replaced. If you use your most honest judgement and see that it stands well against other mods, then it will stand the test of time. So, please go for it! I and others will appreciate it and enjoy playing it! Thank you!

(But, as BG says, you do have to advertise a little. That thing about "Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door?" Totally wrong! You have to build a better mousetrap and beat the path to your own door! (Or better, yet, go to the town marketplace and hawk it a lot. Voice of experience here. )

[quote name='CDM_' date='Feb 13 2009, 02:57 PM' post='13808430']
There are definitely some good points there, and have to agree with a number of the other poses *Smile*

but some Mod users have a habit of demanding that they be able to use multiple contradictory/mutually-exclusive mods together.


As usual am coming in on this discussion late. Am one of those lurking somewhat newbie types trying to learn about putting mods together for a smooth Oblivion experience. Question is: Is there a "list" or thread somewhere that tells which mods are contradictory/mutually-exclusive of another? I have been able to glean some info from the various threads but am hoping there is possibly a resource that tells about known conflicting mods. So far most of what I have learned has come some from these threads but a lot from looking at files on Nexus and seeing the amount of patches needed to run some mods together. I may be wrong but it seems that if a mod needing multiple patches to work with several different other mods there may be more chance of problems coming up. Thanks for any assistance.

Unfortunately no. Most modders try to list any known conflicts in their readme files, which you have access to when you download and before you install. Of course, there's no way to warn you about unknown conflicts. And even if we can say My mod A plays nicely with mod B, there's no gurantees that it will continue to play nicely when you adds mods C-Z to your load order.

There are dozens of modders all modifying the same landscape, so conflicts will arise. Making all mods compatible with all mods is impossible because there would only be a finite number of mods creatable before conflicts would arise (a line this community passed long before my time). It comes down to mod users having to make choices for their game. Yes it would be great if chocolate and bubblegum would play nicely together, but at the end you have to decide which you like most and go with that. Also, there's nothing stopping you from installing chocolate once your chewing gum has lost its flavor!

Hope that helps!

A very commendable and descriptive analogy Conquest_Calvin!

I have to point out the other side of the coin here, the mod-user. A large majority of what I have read on this forum since returning to play Oblivion again, HAS been from mod-users. I had to wade through it all to find those relevant bits of info that enabled me to put a working, modded game together again. And, in my case, to understand why it works that way. I'm never satisfied with plug and play, I've gotta know the why. But, you get all sorts that end up here on a long or short basis, and they all come with differently perceived needs and/or desires.

It's fair to say that a significant portion of them are the 'plug and play' variety. I commonly think of them as 'console kids'. They've played Oblivion, enjoyed the flavor of what was uniquely wrought, and seek to add more to that experience. They don't want, or don't care to understand load order, compatibility, or configuration, and are the first ones to say "OMFG!, that readme is a page long. You expect me to read that!" They want to add it to their list, put a check in it, and play it. Forum etiquette, rtfm, do a+b/c to make it work, doesn't matter to them. They want instant gratification and they want it NOW. And if your mod doesn't deliver, well then, you are just the worst modder on the planet. I'll go and flame your mod in the threads, give you poor ratings, and shout to the internet about how badly your mod suxors. The wonderful internet that has the ability to deliver anonymity to all is the ideal vehicle for all sorts of behavior. Hence moderators. This group are probably the ones that weigh the most on the side of expecting too much.

Another large portion of mod users are ones who really do put the effort in to learn the mods, attempt to understand load order, compatibility issues, etc. They have probably tinkered with the CS, done a few tutorials, and just are overwhelmed by the complexity of mod creation, load order and conflicts. They seem to ask a lot of stupid questions, but are earnestly trying to understand what the %$#@ is going on. They are probably the most appreciative of the bunch. And often, have the hardest time getting the help they are looking for, because they are just more voices in a sea of questions, complaints, demands, etc. For the most part, modders do provide a 'decent' readme. Some provide more. Comprehension is the issue for this group, and the intimidation of learning new tools and new ideas. Once they get over those hurdles in their own fashions, they go on to be helpful to others, or get into the creative side themselves, or disappear quietly and play with their new toy. They may ask for new things, or revisions, but are better able to understand the constraints involved, and sometimes end up bringing a new twist to modding. Unfortunately they end up on the side of expecting too much, for a time at least. Sometimes they end up disillusioned with the community for a time because they got their 'fingers bitten off' for asking for something without fully realizing the nature of the creator they were dealing with.

Then, the smallest portion of mod-users. Vets who have been around a while, or users who have the ability to understand the tools, and the intracacies of modding more fully than the majority. Often the most helpful ones, sometimes the cruelest to new users. Those few who may mod some, or not at all, but are willing to offer a helpful comment, or bit of advice, are the ones that I have the greatest appreciation for at the moment. Coming back at first was an 'oh wow' moment for me. A whole lot has evolved since I last played Oblivion, and to be quite frank, the tools that have been created to assist with modding the game are quite intimidating at first. For many, I imagine too intimidating. I am a process engineer by trade, so a tool to me is a challenge in understanding and usage, and I am not easily dismayed. I try to turn that gained knowledge around, and simplify the process for others. I fully understand that a readme half full of techno-jargon can be difficult to comprehend and lead to fear of even using the tool it describes.

So users expect too much, in general... I say it depends on the user, and their perceived desire of what they want, and/or expect, or understand, from a given mod or tool. How they are dealt with largely depends on who graces them with a reply. Hopefully, some consideration of just where the user's understanding of modding in general is at, might temper your reactions to them a bit. A simple "RTFM!" is not always the best answer, as the user in question might not be understanding exactly what is in the manual, or how to use it in the manner the creator intended. Then they become disillusioned because 5 - 20 minutes into a game, it crashes, they come back to the board, and are ignored, or told in so many terms to "RTFM!" This creates fear, confusion, and influences their reaction to the community, and to modders as a whole. A helpful comment, or 5 minutes analysis on a modder's, or a veteran mod-user's part, can go a long way in creating a better atmosphere for all.

To me, mod creators are artists, each and every one. They each bring a unique flavor to the game, and are as replacable as the DMB, or Led Zepellin. You're right, those 2 bands are nothing alike, and so, no 2 modders are alike. But you are all artists, and have the usual, unpredictable, personalities that go with creative minds. You can be sensitive to critique, or indifferent to praise, but I don't feel you can be replaced. Others may come and imitate your style, or revise your work, and that is really praise in it's own right. Just bear in mind, your encouragement, or your indifference towards mod users, has more influence on the atmosphere of this particular community than anything else.

Well said Aegyen! I think sometimes it's easy for those of us who are entrenched in the community to forget how intimidating it can be for a new user who is coming to the forums, confused and needing help. Thanks!

You've hit on one of my personal peeves. People who refuse to learn even the basics of what's involved in their hobby. Playing games is easy. It usually is just a matter of click and go. Playing mods is not. Anyone who gets into doing so should be prepared to invest at least a little bit of time and energy into understanding what they're about to do to their game. That means, yes, I really do expect people to read my boring readme files. Even the ones that are only a page long Instant gratification is not possible in this case, and frankly most of us don't have time to deal with this type of person. So if they want to huff and puff and declare me the worst modder ever, oh well. That's what we have the ignore function for. If they take their attitudes elsewhere and unleash them in the form of hostile comments and abusive ratings, well, there are ways to have that dealt with too. It's usually these same people who become the trolls and flamers of the internet.

This is in stark contrast to a genuine newbie, who while they may want and/or care about load order, compatibility, and configurations, simply lack the necessary skills to fully comprehend what you're trying to explain to them. I'm not talking about your casual tinkerers here either. I'm talking about the ones who may not know what the CS is and only heard this game could be modded yesterday afternoon and came by to see what the deal is. But they see your awesome new quest mod and are dying to try it, but they're hitting roadblocks for some reason - and they're simply not able to adequately explain things. We were all newbies at one time, but some of us caught on faster than others, while some never quite catch on and muttle through. These people are generally not hostile so even if you're not able to help them they're not going to turn on you and fill your threads with junk and start an abusive ratings campaign against you.

I disagree. There are loads of big mods that have been started, but where the original creator quit for some reason, and almost every one of the mods died. Theoretically, another modder can replace the creator, but in reality, the original creator turned out to be irreplacable.

...which to me means that the modder of this mod is irreplacable.

It seems that people have very different understanding of what "replacable" means, and I disagree with you. I really, really enjoy the gaming experience I get out of Oblivion due to the mods out there. Of course (almost) every single mod I have installed, could have been removed and still given me a great game. But that game would be slightly different and slightly less fun than the one I have now. So the modders behind those mods are not replacable. It seems you could just as well say that Oblivion and the entire mod community are replacable. If it hadn't existed, we could have played some other game...

Seems like the topic is moving from "mod users who does not want to invest time and learn how mods work" to "viewing modders as a replaceable resource". As long as they remain creative and not copy from each other, there can be no same work created by two different person.

Let me ask you. Can you replace a spoon with a fork?
You might be able to use a fork for the same purpose in some cases, but it cannot replace a spoon.


And that is why I respect all modders alike, especially those who are very dedicated in creating something the entire community benefits from. Thank you to all the modders, we would never have come this far without you.

I use mods on all the games I play.

So I would just like to say THANK YOU to those who put in the time and effort to improve my gameplay

No slacking though

Well, of course the community would be nothing without certain mods and modders. I mean, take Fargonequeen's work. Without an overhaul like XETB 3.0 there's no way Oblivion would be even remotely playable to me. And modding would just be an intolerable grind without Phlannel's Oblivion Toolkit, as you'd have to do everything manually, and then scrib69 and his team would have never managed to create something as revolutionary as Netchrancher 4000.

And yet again, you fail to properly read both what you were initial commenting on as well as Shikishima's explanation of what you missed.

bg2408's initial reference to Aelius's List of Mods was to speak of its importance to the community back when it first came out. Back then, there weren't any other large and organized mod lists as there are today. Also back then, it was not known that Aelius himself had never left the Imperial isle. Even as such, it was a great resource for many (myself included) as a starting place for finding mods instead of just randomly browsing the thousands of mods on the at the time TESSource (now TESNexus). Though you wouldn't know this since you joined in July of 08 (unless this is just a new nick to replace a banned one), you still felt the need to speak on it as if you did.

This is all bg2408 was saying, in fact all he said was this: "That's why "Aelius' list of mods", despite it's flaws, was so popular". See he even said "despite its flaws", to both acknowledge and trump your point before you even said it. He never gave an opinion about the list, he simply stated the very real fact that at one time it was very popular.

bg2408 certainly did not need his credibility questioned by you for stating this fact. That was both disrepectful and unnecessary. Really, what purpose was served by you saying "You lost all creditibilty by even mentioning this as a mod list"? Do you know why he called it a mod list? Because that was its name! It was called "A's list of mods". And that's not just what it was called, that's exactly what it was, a list of mods. No one has called it "A's list of extensively tested and highly recommended mods".

And who are you to question his credibility in a discussion about the state of the community? bg2408 has made some very popular mods that have added large amounts of enjoyment to this game for many people. He is also a very helpful voice on the forums. This is one of the reasons why Shikishima felt the need to correct you and now I do as well.

This thread has been, as Darkrder said "a relatively thoughtful discussion thus far on a subject that could easily spin out of control." The reason it could spin out of control is because trolls love to disrupt topics like this on most forums. Your "You lost all creditibilty by even mentioning this as a mod list" comment was a very trollish thing to say, which is another reason why Shikishima tried (and now I've spent far too long trying) to correct.

Take time to understand the context of what people are saying instead of just being in a rush to voice your own unsolicited opinion, especially to attack pulled-out-of-context quotes.

Hey now, why is it suddenly not his place to contradict someone who is seen as a more senior member of the community?

Isn't that precisely the argument we're having here? That it's turning into a them/us dichotomy between "modding royalty" and the end user? That some people's opinions are being held as significantly more important than other people's - to the extent where other equally deserving modders are sidelined and people with genuine questions are ignored or shouted down because it is not their place to question things?

Sure, saying someone has "lost all credibility" is a harsh thing to say, but people have told me in threads that I've "lost all credibilty" (in an instance where I criticised a game I hadn't played) and it didn't even occur to me to regard that as a flame.


If you think someone is trolling, press the report button - to call someone a troll is flaming - so it is you rather than they who are likely to get into trouble for doing that.


This is a state-of-modding thread. All opinions are solicited, so long as they are expressed within forum rules.

To answer the points raised above, I don't use A's List of Mods, I use other mod lists - just as I use other mods than the ones that are repeatedly quoted as being the definitive ones that everyone should use. Kateri's little joke above made me smile, but that's essentially it - if I'm not using the ones that everyone seems to cite to the exclusion of everything else, it's because I'm using something else, and it seems a shame in a way that those other mods are being ignored - or people think that they shouldn't bother to make them or worse they don't even know that they exist. It's like someone was talking about a zoned leveled list mod earlier - that reminded me to hunt down one I always used to like and that's been around almost since Oblivion came out and it works fine and I just never see it mentioned here. I wonder if half the people on this board have even heard of it. Is the game playable without it? Sure! I just like to have it because it makes a really amazing game that little bit more amazing. Is that modder "replaceable"? Well, I haven't seen him around in a while, he's probably long moved on and I bet half of you never even noticed he was here, so clearly you're not mourning his loss to the community. Since people don't seem to mention that mod (basically ever), I'm guessing a fair portion of you have probably made your own mods that do exactly what his mod does because you didn't know about it - so despite everything you're saying here, and even by using the other more popular mods, you've already replaced him in your game.

I swore I wasn't going to add to this 'debate', but I just can't stand it. This has been, until today a mostly friendly discussion, but some of the recent posts seem to be quickly turning from a friendly point of view debate into an "I'm right and you're wrong and/or stupid for not agreeing with me" thread. When you can't accept and discuss another's point of view without putting them down for it, it's time to think twice and not post.

That, of course, is just my opinion. You're welcome to disagree with me. And someone will I'm sure.

To the point of this thread, as per the Original Post, yes, I think some mod users tend to expect too much from modders. We can only do so much in regards to compatibility and requested features. We have a responsibility, I believe, to offer as bug-free a mod as we can and to strive to achieve that for however long it takes. Beyond that, fulfilling requests, demands for compatibility, those are personal preferences of each modder and how far they are willing to go to make everyone happy.

I don't think you can make everyone happy all of the time and shouldn't even try or modding stops being fun. Me, I'm still having fun and plan on doing so for a long time and not allow the Naysayers, flamers, bashers, whiners and idiots to drive me from something I enjoy. Heh. Flame on.

Reality check, alright? That's what I said about A's list:

How else to describe the problems with his mod list, without falling into flaming? It's already there. The whole argument if I lost credibility or not because I mentioned A's list (due to him not really playing Oblivion) is just a strawman. Not only that I have mentioned it, it's also no valid argument at all - because it doesn't matter. His list was popular, despite being problematic.

Really, I like discussing, but I want to have people discussing against me - not people either not reading what they attack, or using thinly veiled ad hominem strawmans. That's boring.

That's also (while we're speaking about him) something Aelius did: Due to him not playing Oblivion he made some interesting claims (e.g. insisting that some things are impossible, which were long since done). I remember the name he got therefore from the Monkey God, due to the sheer aggressiveness with which he fighted for a lost and (as has been proven back then months ago!) wrong cause. I was active back then . Why do I bring this up? The same is true for everyone not knowing the subject discussed. How could I say anything true about Unreal Tournament 3 user made maps, without having played any of them? Or about Fallout 3 mods, which (FO3) didn't catch my interest long enough to mod it, or become even a mod user for FO3? If I do so, I will become a "Champion of Cluelessness". That I know about.

In this thread there were a lot of arguments thrown into the fray. Just saying your disagree is no argument, that's only an opinion. If I say that I don't think modders are replaceable, and that they do people some favor, then that's only an opinion, too. Therefore I'm often writing big blocks of texts, because they include the arguments. You can't argue with opinions only. Likewise refusing someone his credibility because he has brought the sky into the argument, by claiming (*gasp*!) that the sky is blue (which the other one even mentioned too), that's either a sign of not reading posts, or trolling. Maybe both. Either way, it just resulted in another entry on my ignore list. Thanks for all pointing out this (even wrongly applied!) strawman, nonetheless. It's fighting the good fight .

If I discuss or argue about anything, I'd like to have worthy adversaries. I do remember the discussions back then about Mod De-Isolation in which Aelius participated, and while they were very funny, they just weren't constructive in any way - simply because those claiming Mod De-Isolation is impossible (like A) only had opinions, but neither arguments nor facts to back them up. How could they? It was done months ago, easily doable - something the Monkey God had a quite nice term for back then.

Oh and speaking about issues raised in this thread, Slof has recently pulled her mods. A big loss. Well, not so much. I eagerly await that someone's going to replace her . I'm waiting... the perfect opportunity to prove me wrong, isn't it ?*


* = I'm fully aware how utterly asocial and disgusting this comment of mine is. Nevertheless it's exactly what I'm arguing against, and I'm hoping that this, in light of the recent events, will show what some people are claiming here. Some anvils have to be dropped.

Princess_stomper

I dont want to take up space quoting you but in response to your comment.

If there was not an argument there would not be a thread such as this one.
If modders were not irritated sometimes by players, there would be no discussion.

If players never asked for or expressed a desire for certain aspects of the game to be modded, there would be a lot less modding.

The problem comes when people ask for things in droves, then get bored of them a few days later. Of course I enjoy doing my own mod, I enjoy it when others contribute and play it.

If I summarised your reply to me it sounds as if you are saying "You modders do the work for yourselves. If you dont like the responses you get then, chin up."

Of course it will irritate a modder if some people write negative comments but do nothing to contribute.

I have to say though, the absolute vast majority of players and modders get on fine, after all modders are players. I dont think that players generally expect too much. I do think that some people could do a lot to help themselves. I wonder actually, do people who want to mod get enough support from modders?

@ Kirian, I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I don't see how it relates to anything I've said. I'm a bit confused by your response, to be honest. Perhaps you misunderstood me: I was not saying that it was irrational for modders to get upset when people say negative things about their mods; more that they shouldn't make them with the expectation of receiving adulation only to be disappointed if instead they are ignored. If people ask for something in droves, then you can make it as a special request for them, but yes - since they didn't make it then it is inevitable that it will not be exactly as they wanted it and they will tire of it more quickly than if they made it themselves 100% to their own tastes. It's like I remember a friend of mine making a request mod for someone and then getting very irritated because the requestee was getting increasingly frustrated that she didn't understand exactly what they wanted, not being psychic and all. When someone asked me to make them a big mod like that, I just said 'no'. I'll make you a room, but that's about it - you want it, you make it, because only then do you really get what you want. Plus it gets more people modding.


Yes, if Slof really does go for good this time, I really hope that another modder will come in and take up where she left up. I'm hoping there's been someone there all along who just didn't bother making that stuff because, well, why should they? There was someone there to do it for them all the time. Nature abhors a vacuum and modders even more. You can't have no male clothing modders just because one male clothing modder - however gifted, however visionary, packs up and moves on.

The reasons for her withdrawal? Aye, those sicken me. Those are not what modding should be about and I'm disgusted that it happened - but then mod users expected too much from the mod creator - they demanded that she makes mods according to their own wishes, rather than just making whatever she wanted to make and then sharing it. Yes, that is a perfectly appropriate use of this topic because we see at this end the extreme end of what happens when users get too demanding - in this case, downright abusive.

That doesn't mean that everyone else gets to sit down and say, "Well, that's it now. We'll just have to cancel the show."

The show must go on, folks, so if you're missing Slof that much, then you make those mods - make them the way she'd make them. Make them better than she'd make them! Maybe then she'll look back and say, "You know what? That's just given me a really good idea ..." and she could come back. And if it's more than just the one person doing that, well it wouldn't be so strange and weird now and the people freaking out about it would just have to get used to the idea. Maybe you'd diffuse the irrational hatred towards her if there was a whole army of male clothing-makers and alien armorers!

In this, as in all things, the folks with the least to say, generally say it the loudest, and most often.

I am referring here to folks that demand that mods be made a certain way, by folks that don't have the first idea of what goes into something as simple as a reasonably well done house mod. Modders need to understand that while these types are not the rule for mod users, they tend to be the most vocal...... I have yet to see a ratings system on any mod site, that has not been subjected to abuse. And that goes both ways....... From the people that give mods low ratings, because it does not match their vision of what the mod "should have been", to those that administer such systems, and ban people for giving low ratings, what ever the reason. Whether justified or not.....

I have to agree, that most modders are indeed replaceable.... but, with a qualification.... some can be replaced FAR easier than others. It is all a matter of degrees.

There is also the flip side of this argument. There are some mod creators out there in the world, that can't/won't tolerate ANY criticism of their mods, constructive or otherwise, without going off on a nut. Fortunately, they are not as numerous as users that fit that description..... and none of them hang here any longer. Sure, they may be talented, and turn out great work, but, simply due to their personality, they turn users off to said work.

We have seen many talented modders come and go, for various and sundry reasons. Too many are lost due to users being too critical/demanding. I think, that if you plan to release anything into the public realm here, you had best have a thick skin, as the sharks will always gather.........

Drive-by topic/tone change:
There have been two mods in particular throughout this thread in praise of modders and as an example of why they're not replaceable: FCOM and UoP. While it is very true that these modders were unique in the time, effort, and ingenuity they put in (and gg I'm grateful for it), it overlooks another group of people - the mod users that reported errors and helped with tests. And I'm not talking about a handful of people - these projects were built up over years with probably 100s of people helping. The help came in many forms - the testers of course put in a lot of free time and we should be grateful, but we should also be grateful for the people who only made a single post/report.

And that's something all mod users should keep in mind when they make comments - a good, constructive comment can mean a better mod down the line. Of course, I don't mean we should only allow constructive comments, or constructive users to download mods, or flog people until they make constructive comments. I mean that we should remind people of this, of the power of the comment to make a mod better (and sometimes the whole community). Most of the great mods were made great because of great modders and great users. (and yes, there's an implied note to mod makers in that paragraph as well...)

To go back to the thread title and I believe the OP, most of the nonconstructive comments seem to have, at their base, too great of an expectation from the mod maker. By this, I mean they expect the mod to be final, to work on every machine in every condition, and if it doesn't then the mod maker is an evil person for having released it. This shows up in various levels (sometimes mod makers are actually called evil ), but for the most part this boils down to one things - the mod maker asks for some clarification or for the player to do a quick test, when the user has already abandoned the mod and/or never responds.

To be helpful, mod users need to understand that mods aren't final, that we (as a community) don't yet know everything there is to know about the Oblivion engine (and unless Bethesda hires someone to "audit" it, we never will), and we can't foresee every mod interaction and set of circumstances. And, again, to be clear - I'm saying this because I think there are a fair bit of users who would change their habits/comments/understanding if we let them know what good mods come from good mod users.

*Bonus - Some of the bad reports is procedural. I've had a number of good comments that were posted in random threads and never brought to my attention (just lucky that I stumbled upon them), mod users don't know about some rather easy and simple debugging procedures like mod order lists and Dr.Watson, etc.

*To be fair, mod users aren't alone in this aspect, either. The CS wiki has gotten quite a bit of similar flak. It's rightly deserved as it's a mess, but there are only 3 on and off people who semi-regularly edit it and 1000s of pages to organize and edit, with little comment about what might be good or bad.

*To give A's list a fair shake - it did start out as mods A had used. After a few months and 'e had less time, 'e started adding mods to the list that 'e hadn't checked. And, as Wrye as said with more nuance, time is the enemy of all modders.

I did not say he could contradict, I just said it was rude to claim that bg's entire well thought-out post was somehow invalidated by the strawman Gurgl chose to burn. Then you went on to discuss about some kind of classism here about who can contradict what, as if I was a proponent of said classism. He didn't contradict him, he tried to say that everything he wrote should be discreditted by the mention of a mod list he didn't like.



I said it was a trollish thing to say, I did not say he was a troll. The difference is intent, and I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by assuming it wasn't his intent. If I truly thought someone was genuinely trolling, of course I would of reported instead.



Well perhaps other than the instance you gave, you should have felt flamed. I see the phrase used all the time on forums too, but usually it is done in a touch-in-cheek manner. This time, however, it was not.

I don't know what situation you speak of, but by how you yourself just described it, it seems they were right. To say someone has "lost all credibility" is a way to express how you feel everything they are saying shouldn't even be read, that it is somehow invalid. If you criticized a game you hadn't played, you properly were expressing an uninformed opinion (again, I don't know the specifics, just going by your words).

However, Gurgl said bg lost all credibility (which means one's voice should not be heard because he does not have credentials to speak on a topic) just because bg mentioned a mod list he didn't like. On top of that he didn't even give an opinion, he just stated a fact about a list and its place in this community's history. Again my mention of bg's modding had nothing to do with being "modder elitest", it was simply to counter the implied lack of credentials/experience/involvement/participation in this community.

Of course, I may have over reacted a little. I think I was having, as that famous web-comic shows, a "hold on, someone on the internet is wrong!!!" moment. It was just frustrating that he attempted to burn the strawman twice, even after Shikishima spelled it out.


Now to get back on topic, I am also shocked that many long time members here feel modders are replacable. Darkrder, a page or so back, express exactly my opinion on the topic of this thread probably far better than I could have (and in bg2408's above post, the Slof example is dead-on, nicely done). Each person creates their mods unique in some why, so even if there will always be someone else to make new weapons, armors, houses, castles, clothings, quests, whatever, they will never be exactly the same as the person who left modding would have made. Not to say better or worse, but different, unique.

edits: fixed numerous grammatical errors, doh!

Wait, what? We can do that?

I went to hit the 'increase karma' button under your avatar, and then remembered it was the 'increase warning' button.

A very good post.


Well, when you put it like that, fair enough.

I'm all for the flogging!... Oh wait.. that doesn't belong here...

princess were'nt you a modder at one point??? Maybe I'm thinking about someone else.

Yes, was, and still is.

She makes pretty awesome videos too!

I've actually got the CS open right now. I wanted a house in Passwall, and nobody had made one exactly how I wanted it, so I started to make one, and thought I was nearly done - but then I saw Korana's Hall of Blissful dreams, and thought, "Hmm, I wish I had a Korana-style house in Passwall", but she's busy doing her big project, so I scrapped what I'd done and started again. I'll upload it when it's finished.


Heh ... I'd almost forgotten about that. Qarl and Santa_Cruz headbanging! Good times!

Princess Bunny is an uber modder!

I've been avoiding this thread for a long time now as well, but I feel compelled at last to say something.

First, thanks so much to bg2408, Wrye, Darkrder, Aegyen, Arthmoor, Simbacca, and others for taking the time to post some reasonable comments in this thread. You rock!



Well said!




Well, yes of course the show will go on, but there's some leap of logic here that I'm not quite following. You seem to be suggesting that there is an elite clique here which feels itself to be a "modding royalty" and as such disdains the needs of common users? Your argument against this is that this "royalty" is not so special at all and in fact quite replaceable?

If so, then I think you are oversimplifying matters. This is perhaps understandable given the complex nature of the issue. I probably don't have any better explanation, but I will take a shot at it.

To me it seems the most interesting questions are more elusive: what are our abilities and limitations, our motivations and inspirations, what is reasonable for users to expect, and how modders cope with such expectations.

WhoGuru makes a very good point about compatibility and requested features. Some modders like dealing with these sorts of issues. Others can't stand it. Most probably fall somewhere in between these extremes.

Most modders want feedback and suggestions and requests to a certain extent. It's just a matter of degree. Too much of a good thing can be overwhelming. Too little is also discouraging. If you've hung around here for any length of time you've probably noticed modders who leave for any number of reasons, but these two reasons stand out to me at least because they seem especially painful.

There's no right or wrong answer, at least on this. Every modder has unique talents, limitations, motivations, and needs.

Some prefer to work alone, some thrive in collaboration with others. Some have very definite ideas about what they want to create or change about the game, whether it's a powerful artistic vision for some new creation or a list of problems they want to fix. Others are more interested in answering requests or giving the player many choices to pick from. Each of these approaches has its strengths and weaknesses. Each is valuable in its own way.

In fact, most team projects cannot succeed without a strong mixture of people involved who have widely differing tendencies in these areas. Two people with very strong visions will often clash in destructive ways unless there's another member who can weave their viewpoints together into a cohesive solution. Large projects often fail because one or more of these pivotal roles gets lost or is lacking to start with.

Maybe someone else can come along and do your job after you are gone. Maybe not. Each case is unique. Does this fact make anyone feel good? Does it help anyone to feel appreciated for all the hard work they do? Saying that all modders are replaceable may be true in some sense, but what does it accomplish to say this?

Is Btmod really a replacement for DarN or Immersive Interface? Maybe in some sense it could be. Probably some players prefer it. Fine. That is as it should be.

But saying that all modders are replaceable seems rather beside the point, doesn't it?

There is at least a significant segment of the community that does not work in a vacuum. We thrive on, draw inspiration from, are motivated by, or perhaps even directly continue the work of others. We quite literally stand on the shoulders of giants. Yes, that's paraphrased from Isaac Newton: "If I can see further than anyone else, it is only because I am standing on the shoulders of giants."

There are whole categories of mods that probably would not exist without the work of very specific people, or at least they would almost certainly be much poorer for it. Plenty of good examples have already been given. Here's a few more. On the famous end of the spectrum, where would weather mods be today without the work of Max Tael (Natural Environments)? What about Qarl? Would we have a NIF exporter at all if not for the work of Shon in recruiting such an amazing team of programmers for the NIFtools project? Would it be anywhere near as complete as it is without the fantastic work of m4444x, wz and many others? Would it still be alive today without the continued devotion of tazpn, amorilia, and others? On the lesser known end of the spectrum, where would we be as a community without the selfless help and support given to budding animators by the likes of scanti, throttlekitty, mmmpld and XMarksTheSpot? Would the wiki be anything like what it is today without DragoonWraith? If Shezrie had never been inspired to start ORE, would we have so many great house mods? If ElminsterEU had never been inspired to create TES4Edit, would we still be stuck using hex editors? Horses without Slof?

I can tell you without a doubt that we would all be a LOT poorer without any one of these people. There are many, many more besides the few I have listed. Each one of them made a lasting impact on the state of the community. Yes, even without their contributions, I'm sure we'd still have plenty of mods to play, that much is certain. Would they be as compelling as they are now? Not by a long shot.

re: Collaboration with others

It takes a strong leader. As someone who in real life is a Principal level engineer I know what it takes to lead a project. It isn't easy and it takes a huge amount of time.

Another good example of mod users expecting too much is a rather recent one I was a major part in, but have since gone on Hiatus from the project.

It was on the Fallout 3 modding Forums a month or so ago by now.

The FVP and the MSVC (Fallout Vehicle Project and the Makeshift Vehicle Project)
It was meant to be a community project but to say the least- there was drama caused by a few modders that didnt well.. "mesh" very well, but that was very minor, however it Did grow a tad out of control for a while as control over the project hopped from person to person to person again. I ended up taking over the head rather quickly, and then was briefly flamed by a bunch of mod users due to "stealing a mod" as they called it. Fact is, There were only two or three things that came out of that entire project by the time I left without saying Goodbye, Brainstorming between Skycappa, myself, and Illyism, a couple Models by Skycappa, and a forum for the project which simply didnt gain popularity, as people would rather not make accounts and just spam their 'original ideas' which had been mentioned in either the last thread here or just a couple pages back.

The frustration of all the requests and "IS DIS STILL BEING WORKD ON?" if there wasnt a comment for two days, and the always wonderful "Y ISNT THIS OUT YET? I WANT VEHICULS NOW"
I never saw much of a reason to report them or anything, just useless "gimme gimme" comments can also modders find their projects unappealing to them, which certainly isnt the spirit of producing content.

Also, I should probably mention that Illyism one of the two mentioned modders released ridable animals for Fallout 3, and although they are buggy they are certainly a start, mabye Ill start the MSVC up again once hes gotten all the bugs kinked out, but until then I am Certainly done with the Fallout Modding community.

Edit: Alot of good was said there dev_akm I feel all warm and fuzzy about some of our devoted's. Dont forget Buddah in there of course, Mod detectives is a very important project as well, I have no idea how those people keep track of all that stuff.
Even though I jokingly say to myself "OH [censored] THAT THREAD JUST GOT BUDDAH'D" whenever he mentions "Thank you for the linky will add it to the list !!"

You know, I've never gotten flame PMs or hate mail. I don't really know why. I know AlienSlof did and I don't understand it there either. I didn't check but I read she took her stuff down. That inhales with much velocity.

As a mod user, I feel great admiration for the modders who create all these mods, even if I don't use them. That being said, I am also well aware that most mods won't be "perfect", and I don't expect it to be, as it is 1)the creation of another and 2)an Oblivion mod (which means possible conflicts, user errors, LO problems, etc....). I am a "mature" gamer and wasn't around computers until my late 20's, so I am not well schooled on many possible problems I have run into. I have found MOST modders and forum users to be very helpful. At times, I may be irked when the initial response is "read the read me". I wouldn't ask the question without searching for an answer on my own first, but I also realize that some users don't. They want everything handed to them w/o work on their part.
As for modders being replaceable or not, that is a gray area in my opinion. Without Martigen, we wouldn't have MMM, but he left the community, and CorePC and others stepped in to keep his project alive and growing. Same with OOO. So to an extent Mart and Oscuro were irreplaceable, as they had the vision, but they have been replaced and their respective projects grow (and IMHO keep that same vision alive).

That's all I got to say 'bout that.

That's not exactly the same thing as being replaceable. That's more of the understudy analogy Princess Stomper is using. The play has already been written and you just have new performers presenting it. Replacing them entirely in the way I'm understanding her point would mean dev_akm and others wrote their own play instead. Clearly they're capable of doing so, but would they have without the previous work? We'll never know the answer to that.

I dont consider myself irreplaceable. The best I can hope for is to be useful for a time.

I do think that modders need a thick skin, to be able to shrug off poor criticism and abuse as immature. It is a pleasure to mod, but its a bigger pleasure to see others taking on the mod as their own and adding their own character to the mix. Ive been very fortunate over the past year. Some great people have got involved. Its difficult sometimes because I know how I want the mod to turn out, however if I keep a tight rein then it will only ever please me and that would ruin the whole point of a mod that I hope many will enjoy. I love the way the mod is going now, many heads are better than one.

I find criticism helps. I might not like it sometimes but I try to learn from it.

In my opinon the worst criticism comes from the comments on TesNexus and PES. If you are sensitive about rude comments as a modder you should not allow ratings or comments. The rude comments here will be taken care of quicker than in other places.

First of all my respect to BG and Wrye and dv_akm and you know who all I mean, for saying all the things I had wanted to post here so many times, thank you for posting out what needed to be said, what is so true and what is not even an opinion, it´s a fact that shouldn´t be needed to explicitly backup like the way you did and I never bothered.


As almost everything is already said, there this one UNLOGICAL statement that has been rising up in this thread many time, reflect by this quote from Princes:



(note: the following is not directed to anyone in particular, but against this kinda line of thought)


And how is that true? Why?

What power in the universe makes you so certain someone actually shows up? Would there have been one if Slof never bought a copy of Oblivion? For sure?



Clothing mods are not necessarily an example I would like to use, so don´t take that too literally. My point is, modding is something that exists for a limited time for certain game, and involves a limited group of people, constantly diminishing after a certain point.

Certain types of mods cannot be predicted, and they CAME TO BE through some individual. If that individual didn´t exist, it´s MORE THAN LIKELY that many mods with no counterparts wouldn´t exist IN THE SAME SCOPE or QUALITY to date.


Is too easy, and unrational, to say there would absolutely be another mod like X, if X didn´t exist, simply because mod X exists.



It´s also illogical to back up arguments like that as PREDICTMENTS using "laws of big numbers" and likelyhoods those "big numbers" assumably bring with them. There are no big numbers in play here, and the number is constantly getting smaller. I´m referring to modders of course. If something is gone, at this point, you better keep your fingers crossed if you hope that someone with


-skill
-vision
-motivation
-lots of time
-determination

EDIT: -SAME goals


appears to make a replacement, especially at this point of Oblivion modding life span. Do you really take it as 100% certain? Or even likely?

If anyone does, they are just plain wrong. Not because I say so, but because it´s statistically true, and pretty obvious mind you.



Unreplacecability of a mod or a modder is in the end proved only when the time passes on, and nothing comparable shows up. And at the same time the loss for losing that mod or a modder grows exponetially.

^
|
|
|
|
That's win.

(note: that's just my way of saying I whole heartedly agree . well said)

Nowthat all that has been said,


One of you modders HAS to make me a mod



Goddammit

















Jk, nah love all you guys, without you oblivion wouldve died ages ago.

Replaceability: I'm going to speak directly to aspiring, hard working modders here. You're not replaceable! If you knock yourself out and turn out a seriously cool mod, it's not going to be replaced. If you use your most honest judgement and see that it stands well against other mods, then it will stand the test of time. So, please go for it! I and others will appreciate it and enjoy playing it! Thank you!

For me that is the most true comment I've seen so far

I don't mod a lot and most of the mods I've done most people would generalise as being replaceable

However would they be the same ?

For me certainly not as using a mod you created is more personal than using someone else's

Also even in my own mods (the Exnem Overhaul replacers) there are little things that would be different if done by a different person - the way meshes have been put together , some corrections and alterations to textures etc.

Even though 2 people may make 2 mods with the same general goal - their own vision of what that goal is makes a unique experience

For analogy Both Bach and Chopin wanted to write music - would listening to both their outputs give you the same experience - I think not

Must say this is all a interesting disscusion really.

If Slof never bought or modded for Oblivion I can safely say I would NEVER have picked up modding myself, if she never modded Morrowind I wouldnt have even bought any of the elder scroll games at all.

Its strange the whole cause and effect someone can have on others, I am easly replaceable no doubt about that in my mind.... But some modders without them ever steping in some things would be set back years, and other mods would never have been made at all.

I think I agree most with bg - at least in attitude.

I don't think modders can be replaced really and because you all have more talent and time than I do to mod - I thank you.

I've made many a request in the last 6 months and with each I try to make my appeals based on logic and manners. Common decency.

So then if these conclusions are true ... what then should we conclude regarding this?

What are you all arguing for? What is the subtext? Of what value is this argument? If everyone (or a majority) then comes to this conclusion ... then what?

Is it just to point out that mod users can be pushy and that they should understand when a mod maker ignores them - so back off man ??

Is it to finally outline that indeed there is a mod making elect - the privileged few?

I've read a modder say that he and I are equal here and that the only one different is the moderators. What did napoleon pig say "All animals are created equal ... some are just more equal than others."

Nah I don't think that is what is being said (by most), on the other hand, Just like with life - keep respect in front. Abuse and bad boundaries are a two way street. If boundaries are there to begin with then there is no possibility for abusive relationships to fester.

my 2 cents for now.

Sort of. It's a mixture of elements that basically creates a "cognitive dissonance" between modder and user:

- some modders are used to receiving excessive amounts of praise and then react badly to even constructive criticisms. You can even see how that happens in the past few posts in this thread describing me as an "uber" modder - sure, it's nice if people say nice things about you, but I view that sort of flattery as a bit excessive and embarrassing, and would really rather people just left feedback at e.g. Planet Elder Scrolls of simply "I really liked this part" or "There's a floating tree on this bit".

- while people are heaping excessive praise on some modders, they're almost certainly ignoring another mod that actually is just as good. It might not be exactly the same as the other mod, but it's always a bit depressing to see the other modder get ignored. This is why I encourage people to mod only for themselves - because that avoids the disappointment of being ignored. Modders ask too much of users.

- not so special? Well, there are mods that make us smile when we think of them, and there are the mods that we seek out as soon as we do a fresh install, but then there becomes the problem if the mod or modder you like is no longer around. Users ask too much of modders - they can't always guarantee to be there. So what are you going to do?
Actually, and I go back to the Korana example: I love Korana personally, she's a great girl and a great friend, and I love her mods and find them tremendously inspiring ... but she wasn't around to make mods when Oblivion came out. We had to go nearly three years without a Korana mod. So did I spend my time moping and thinking, "Oh no! I can't play this game because there are no Korana mods?"
No, I used other equally competent mods by other users. Funnily enough, I would absolutely maintain that Brendan62 is every bit as competent and innovative a modder as Korana. He really is that good. The funny thing is that he never "took off" here - people just didn't really pay any attention to him or his mods. I enjoyed them, though, very much. If he's doing other things, though, and not making any more mods ... well, there are other modders just as good as he is, and Korana is back now.

Again, it's like the work thing. The single most destructive thing I've seen is when someone decided to make themselves "irreplaceable" at work, and when he left he didn't make it easy for the next person to come in and fill his shoes, so effectively he destroyed her own chances of making an impression. (Didn't actually do him any favours: he was always seen as a bit of a bastard after that.) Now, with modding, most of us work on our own and just share things when they're done - but there should always be that spirit of openness and sharing and collaboration that says, "OK, I've done this bit, now it's your turn".

The best employees make their mark and their personalities are "irreplaceable", and they do things in their own unique way, but their function - their role, their place in that organisation - should be something that another equally capable person should be able to fill without question and they should be made welcome to do so.

Maybe someone else can come along and do your job after you are gone. Maybe not. Each case is unique. Does this fact make anyone feel good? Does it help anyone to feel appreciated for all the hard work they do? Saying that all modders are replaceable may be true in some sense, but what does it accomplish to say this?
It accomplishes encouragement for the next person to come along and feel confident at filling those shoes.

Another office analogy: a really well-liked member of staff was off for a while, and another manager came in and covered their role for a while. Instead of saying, "OK, you're not him but we really want to see what you can do," the new manager was greeted with near-hostility by the people in his department. It was like, "How dare you ever think that you can ever replace him!" and they never even gave him a chance.

In another situation, a really well-liked member of staff was off for a while, and another manager came in and covered for them. They were encouraged by the people around them, people reacted to their new ideas with interest, and their slightly different take on the same function was greeted with enthusiasm. They were eventually welcomed as a permanent replacement, and when a long time later the first manager came back ... well, that was just twice as nice: we had two people with expertise in that area to bounce ideas off. Isn't that so much better?

Is Btmod really a replacement for DarN or Immersive Interface? Maybe in some sense it could be. Probably some players prefer it. Fine. That is as it should be.
And that is as I meant it. When I unchecked DarN and installed BTMod, I was literally replacing one mod with another. If DarN removed his mods altogether, we'd still have BTMod and many other mods that do that job. That's not to say that DarN's mod doesn't offer a choice: it's just this (as I see it) ludicrous connection between liking something and implying that we are dependent on it - as though saying that we are not dependent on it is saying that it's not worth having.

There are whole categories of mods that probably would not exist without the work of very specific people, or at least they would almost certainly be much poorer for it.
It's difficult to say what would not have happened if it hadn't been for some people because it's pure speculation. If there is a hole, it gets filled.

What about Qarl?
I seem to recall another texture pack coming out at the same time as Qarl's. If Qarl had not produced his texture pack, we'd be using the other one.

Would we have a NIF exporter at all if not for the work of Shon in recruiting such an amazing team of programmers for the NIFtools project?
Yes. In fact, we'd actually have Bethesda's version, which they decided not to release because they liked Shon's more.

where would we be as a community without the selfless help and support given to budding animators by the likes of scanti, throttlekitty, mmmpld and XMarksTheSpot?
Yes, of course we would. Human beings are by their nature incredibly lazy. Necessity is the mother of invention - so if someone needs an animation and nobody else is doing animations, and they can't stop wanting that animation, it pretty much forces them to learn how to do it. The one reason I never took up model-making is that I'm just not motivated enough to suffer the hard learning process to do so - but I'd take it up in a jiffy if I wanted it badly enough.

Would the wiki be anything like what it is today without DragoonWraith? If Shezrie had never been inspired to start ORE, would we have so many great house mods?
Again, I even made a start building a house mod list like kwshipman's list for Morrowind, but when I saw Shezrie was doing one, I gave up on my own one. If you weren't using hers, you'd be using mine. As to whether Shezrie's site is responsible for so many great house mods, well, her forum offers a nice safe place to discuss methology, encourage each other and get feedback on our WIPs, so sure - it contributes a great deal to the community. There is no ORE for Morrowind, so instead we've just used the Morrowind Mods forum all this time, which performs the same function, and there are house mods every bit as good (actually, I'd still say they're better) than anything done for Oblivion. (No, you do not get to hop up and down about how I'm now disparaging Oblivion modders. Morrowind modders have a four-year head start on you.)


Experience. Morrowind came out in 2002, so we have an infinite monkeys/typewriters/time thing and a basis for comparison. Yes, Slof has thus far been the only person I'm aware of to make sexy male clothing/armour for Oblivion, but she's not actually the only person to do so for Morrowind. The standard and quality of her work is unusually high - and sure, as a professional in her dayjob it should be! - but what power in the universe makes you so certain that there isn't another equally capable artist who wants to make sexy male clothing for Oblivion?


Again, it's a question of perception. To some people, Morrowind modding was "dead" by 2006, and its number was only a fraction of what it was in 2002 - but the mods that have come out since have been amongst the best mods ever for that game, and there are still dozens of releases for Morrowind every week. So it is completely incorrect to say that the pool is getting smaller so the likelihood of seeing the mod you want is getting smaller. It is conversely that the quality is getting higher and you are simply missing out by not taking much of an interest because you're viewing it as a "dead scene" once it reaches a certain point.

All that has happened with Morrowind is that all the crap modders have moved on. And some good ones, of course, but out of a pool of maybe 30,000 modders of which only 100 were any good at it, you've now got a pool of 100 modders of which 80-90 are any good at it. And of course only those people are going to download your mod, but they'll appreciate it that bit more because they know what went into it. (It's like how one of my mods only got a handful of downloads but a ridiculous number of 10/10 votes - like almost every person that downloaded it liked it and voted for it, but that total is still only a really small number. Still, I'd rather it that way round than 10,000 downloads by people who can't even remember installing it.) Heh ... funny that: modders tend to be happier with feedback from other modders because a lot of the time users who don't mod just plain don't understand. It's like how modders sometimes have more sympathy for developers (I know I do!) because we know that actually it's not that simple after all. Emil recently said in an interview that he just smiles at a lot of fan feedback on "they should have done this" because he just knows that they simply have no idea how much that would break the game.

It's funny, the whole idea of "what if this mod had never been invented", question. I mean, it's like I noticed in Bash that my savegames for Oblivion are corrupted because I started messing with my load order. Unlike Mash, there doesn't appear to be any button to Repair All, so I just have the choice of living with it or starting a new game. I see that as being analagous to the whole discussion: what if there was no Bash at all? Well, I'd have to a. live without it, b. find something that does that job or c. make something to do it. Since c. is out of the question because I don't know one end of Python from another, I'd do a search for b. and if no other programmers had attempted the task, I'd be stuck in the same position everyone was in before Bash came out: living without it. There's no Bash for Fallout 3 (AFAIK) and so I just do without it. Ya know, there's also no town at Canterbury Commons, but I'm working on fixing that ...

:edit: You know what this is like? It's like when someone in a couple says "I couldn't live without you!"
That's not love. I love my husband - he's a great guy - but I could manage perfectly well without him, thank you very much, and if I'd have never met him, I'd have married someone else and been just as happy. The "love" part is that I chose him out of all the alternatives. Eureka! That's it - that's exactly my problem with both sides of the divide. Both modders and users have a tendency to behave like jealous lovers shouting, "YOU CAN'T LEAVE ME! YOU NEED ME!" to which the answer is simply, "No, I do not." To maintain a healthy relationship, there needs to be a bit of independence on both sides.

Excellent points all around. As a modder thats been lurking around here for a few years, I thought I might add my two cents

All modders are unique snow flakes Given enough time and monkeys, yes you can create Hamlet, but it might not be finished before the next Elderscrolls title comes out. And then they'd have to spend an equivalent amount of time working on the release thread.

I DO consider myself an artist and the worlds I create are my canvas.

I have often gotten hate mail / mean posts (not everyone likes my cheesy voices) but in general I get far more positive feedback. It is disheartening to see one person vote you a 1 out of 10 because they didn't like it, but thats all part of the deal when you release to the public. Hopefully you get enough constructive feedback that you can learn or fix something.

I can't help but mod. It's an addiction. But, I can choose which games I mod. I chose to stick it out in this community because of the overall positive attitudes here. I have modded many games in the past and rarely have I seen such a tight community.

I´m not THAT interested in this discussion, since I think I have said what I wanted.

But just to point something out from your post, to avoid misunderstandings:


1. You turned my logical argument into unlogical: I DIDN´T claim I´M sure about something. I only pointed out that YOUR claims cannot be backed up by your reasoning. If a modder/mod is gone, there is no guarantee something comparable will show up.

It does not imply, in any way, that it´s impossible to happen. And there is no history that can really convince anybody in ANY direction, I for one wouldn´t be so safely sure there is a replacement behind a corner for all the presently most influencial modders. And THAT is the only thing I said.

And if you say it doesn´t matter if something is lost and doesn´t come back, that´s TOTALLY subjective.



2. I didn´t imply I think modding scene is dying. You yourself implied the number of people, like with Morrowind modding, gets smaller over time, which is also what I meant. And that is the reason why it´s less and less likely to get a replacement for a modder that parts, with same skills and inclinations and furthermore, motivation and time to (re)create something similar. You yourself implied, it´s the longtimers, the skilled and experienced ones that stay. And if they don´t? It hurts the community a lot, because with everyone of them dies a small part of the community. Because, especially eventually, they are the community, those that are left.

Don´t get sidetracked. My post was not about if it CANNOT happen, that a modder leaves, or that it´s somehow IMPOSSIBLE to sustain. It´s a big loss every time, because there´s a GREAT CHANCE there will be no "replacement". And that was the whole point of my post.



3. Of course there would be "life without X". That´s not the point at all. As long as we were talking about replacing essential persons, it´s a question of "would everything be just as well?". The answer is, especially with a tool like Wrye Bash (since you brought it in as an example), no.

If it never existed (and without Wrye, it´s in no way guaranteed that something even similar would), there wouldn´t be certain kind of mods, or ways to use mods that there is now. If Wrye would pack his pack and take down his tools, many mods made to work specifically through it wouldn´t work. Possibly, someone would reverse engineer the concept and release a contemporary tool. Maybe, just maybe. But without his original work, nothing like it would MOST LIKELY not have ever existed.

There is absolutely no grounds to assume otherwise.


....

I´m really not into talking empty words like "something would happen cause something has happened in the past". Things don´t obey such thinking and it´s pointless to argue with such claims. The only things we can be SURE of, is that nothing is for certain.

Also, what you finally say sounds like "If we wouldn´t have mod X and tool Y, then we would not have them and we would have to be without". Well duh. Would the life go on? Of course. Is that really the only thing this whole thread has been about?



I mean, to make any sense, it has to be about one thing or another: either it´s about if some mod or tool/person behind them is replacable = there would automatically exist a contemporary, OR if there would be modding without them.


To first, the obvious answer is: not necessarily, and in many cases, not likely. There is only a CHANCE.

Two second, the answer, again plain obvious, is "of course, most likely". Would it be as possible to use mods together, would the same level of complexity exist among them? No one knows.



To that last sentence, the state of modding in this community, given level of knowledge and quality of tools, and the mods that HAPPEN TO HAVE BEEN done is amazing, and wouldn´t have NECESSARILY existed not given the right individuals. Just as we couldn´t predict the situation, we cannot say it was given.

Now that this state of things exists, it shouldn´t treated as given. Furthermore and again, if something we have is taken away now, it´s never guaranteed to reappear - as it was never guaranteed to exist in the first place.

If only one thing comes out of this thread it has to be this:

Download brendan62's mods.

*waves Bat Cape and heads back to Fallout 3 Mod forums*

I think this argument is becoming circular.

As I understand it, there are two diametrically opposed lines of thought in this topic:

1. All modders are unique and utterly irreplaceable. Implication: the scene is therefore dependent upon them (since they cannot leave without leaving an unfillable void behind) and you should be grateful for everything they deign to release. This should impact upon how you respond to their release threads and site listings. It also presents an obligation to the modder - because the community is dependent upon them because nobody else can do it the way they can, they have a responsibility to complete mods regularly to a high standard and keep them publicly available indefinitely at an easily accessed site.

2. Modding at a basic level isn't particularly difficult and anyone can do it. It's something freely undertaken for the modder's own pleasure. Given enough time and encouragement, any modder can reach a proficient standard and some who have a particular aptitude or expertise can reach an excellent standard. The type and quality of the mod is determined by the perceived need rather than the ability of the modder - so a modder will learn a new skill in order to obtain an item or function they lack, rather than it being reliant on there being a pre-existing person with that skill or item within the "talent pool". That creates absolutely no obligation on the part of the modder - they can come and go as they please because if they decide to pull all their mods, oh well, we can use something else; and it creates no obligation on the part of the user - they don't have to use it and if they don't like it, well, they can poxy well make their own.

(There is a caveat to both, really, which is that most of us don't like "take-backs". There's a certain moral obligation that if you have previously made something publicly available it should remain so unless there's a very good reason why not. I'm not going to drag someone I really like into this (again) but there are definitely some instances when it's fully understandable why you can't do that, but for the rest of us, just shove it on fileplanet and forget about it if you really can't be bothered with it any more. If you're with the second view, though, then you can easily ignore demands to finish mods or requests for custom mods because, well, you're doing this for you and they should do it themselves if they want it.)

I think the upshot of previous discussions on this has been that so long as the expectations of the modder and the user are clear, then it really doesn't matter which view they subscribe to. Problems arise when there is that doubt - which is why I often put a remark on my site or in the release thread or whatever saying what my expectations are on the part of the user: i.e. normally a very polite way of saying that I'm really not interested in your opinion, good or bad, unless you're actually reporting a bug, because I didn't make it for you. I'm not dependent on you, you're not dependent on me. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow ( ) then you can just as easily get your houses from someone else you'll like just as much if not more.

To put a more extreme version: is Todd Howard replaceable?

I mean, it's his vision that makes the games, right? He sets the tone and culture of the company, he's the one that says 'yay' or 'nay' to every decision. Surely, if the "irreplaceable" line of thought is correct, then Bethesda literally could not exist without Todd. I mean, there'll never be another Todd, right?

Well, when Todd leaves or retires (it will happen!) or even is headhunted, someone else will just walk right in there and sit in his chair and do his job every bit as well as he could.

Hell, if Pete left, our guy here even looks a bit like him. Provided people didn't look too closely, you could have our guy do Pete's job and nobody would even notice for three weeks. (Yes, Pete is literally one of the best in the world at his job. So's our guy.)

When you create a dependency you discourage people implicitly from stepping up to the challenge. Maybe not in terms of outright hostility, but why should they bother when everyone's so reliant on one thing that they don't even acknowledge a need for alternatives? Your boss is off work, and someone asks you a question: what do you do? You might not think you have their skills or their experience but when there is nobody there to make that decision and nobody there to do it for you, you have to step up to the challenge. You have to assume the mantel and you have to get on with the job.

@ smokindan: Yes. Sorry, you win this thread:

Download Brendan62's mods.

I was actually taken aback for a moment by what Dev_akm said as I had never thought about it before. However the more I thought about it the more I realized that Oblivion house modding would not be the way it is without the ORE community. It is all very well to say that there would be other house mod lists we would use and that is the case. But mod listing is only one aspect of ORE.

There are also the challenges that have produced many of the best house mods and houses that came after that were inspired by these challenges. The MORE plea for tile sets that resulted in some excellent ones and modders from foreign communities contributing their works, hosting mods, the areas of the site that are not mod listings, the community.....

I always have and still do attribute ORE's success to the talented people we have there. However, for the purposes of this discussion, it was those original ideas that created the place in the first place.

The idea that for each modder there is a 'replacement' feels to me like really belittling each modder personally and their contributions. It is applying little value to that person. Though I know it is not intended that way by those saying it. If my boss told me I was replaceable, I would not feel good. Because it tells me I am of little value, a dime a dozen. Applying it to an artistic community is even less good and less true as every artist has a unique vision and contributes something unique.

No one is saying that the scene is dependent on certain modders, we are saying that you cannot fill a hole left by a modder leaving with another modder. Not that the modder's leaving would result in a breakdown in community and the abandonment of modding for good. We can have more modders, but unless they are a clone of the modder that left, they are not a replacement for them.

Regarding Todd leaving, yes someone can sit in and do his job..but...no one else can contribute Todd's unique ideas like Todd can and in that he is irreplaceable. They can only contribute their own unique ideas.

This whole discussion and two ends of the argument seem to be, how do you perceive modders......and Bethesda employees...

*One side perceives each as individuals with their own uniqueness that cannot be replaced.

*The other side seems to see them as the particular position they fill, eg a modder.

These two ends are not compatible in the least and there is no middle ground on this I think.

Princess, no offense but it seems to me that you are playing both sides here, almost as discussing with yourself.


What I mean, for example, is that saying some achievements in the community most likely wouldn´t have come to being is PRETTY far from your #1 "general opinion".

Giving some people credit, for their unique ideas and relentless work, making it true and supporting it even for years to come, once again does not imply that those people should be raised above other´s as human beings. Where do those assumptions even come from?



It´s the general idea of talking down stuff that deserve that credit, is what I´m after here. That credit does not mean any kind of special treatment to anyone, it only means not generalizing and/or talking down achievement that are unique to date. Because those that are, they stay unique until proven otherwise, and just don´t deserve this casual belitling.

Now I for one were after nothing else when I posted, to oppose that attitude. As talking those achievements as bein fff8 g just act of fate and the maker just a coincidence, is the same as taking them for granted, that they were to be, you knew it beforehand, and it was just a matter of time for a proper puppet to appear. It´s just silly.


Anyway it´s like what I tried to say was turned into something totally else. It´s impossible to discuss, when everything is turned into extreme statements, and then someone flat out takes an example from business world, and claims replacements are easy to find and always do just as well a job. My god, even this is just the otherway around! Reqruiting quality replacements is nowhere near a breeze, and many companies have gone downhil after a key person has left when the replacment has failed to fill the void. On the otherhand, many success stories have been carried over by exceptional individuals - which then have been extremely hard to replace, often with grim results.

Now I really don´t want to encourage anyone to continue down that road of examples, just pointing out why I sign out at this point.

Well, that takes me back to what I said before: if I tell the truth (that I think that actually it would have got there just the same - just as other house-modding communities for other games have) but just by a different path, then you're going to interpret that as a slight against your site. It's valued, of course, and appreciated, but I don't agree with your assertion.


Ah, then I guess it's just how we're used to being treated at work, then.
Yes, I am replaceable. Anyone could do my job as well as I can, and (certainly at my level or one or two levels above it) I could do anyone else's with equal success. That doesn't mean I am not respected as an invidual. To the people I work with, I'm more than a title or a role or a function - but I'm not dependent on them and they're not dependent on me. It doesn't all grind to a halt if I go away. Some guy quits - no matter how high up - someone else just gets moved into their position and everyone else carries on with hardly even an intake of breath. That is because our strategic vision is bigger than any of us - no matter who you are, no matter what your talents - and yes, we have artists and yes, we have literally some of the best people in the world within our organisation - no word of a lie - but that makes it all the more crucial not to let egos take control. The collective is bigger than the individual.

That gives us tremendous flexibility when it comes to moving people around. If one guy (or girl) leaves, then we know that people can just be switched around and it's no big deal. People can have their whole jobs changed or even removed but they'll just be moved over there and get straight on with doing whatever needs to be done. Everyone's eye is always constantly on the end goal and no individual concern takes precedence over that. You had a great idea that you just spent a year developing, but it no longer fits in with what we're doing? It's gone. Sorry. You're now working on this. Get on with it. Yes, that's a bruise and sometimes frustrating but then you look back at that goal - the big thing we're doing together - and you realise that actually they were right and you're just incredibly proud to be a part of that. If my boss tells me I'm replaceable, which in fact she's told all of us, that's fine. So's she. So's the guy above her - and they have to be.

That means that any one of us can be sitting in that chair one day.


I think that's very true. Perhaps it's the scale of the community that makes the difference. Morrowind modding is smaller, so it's more personal. It's not even that I know who some of the modders are, it's like I've sat down and had beers with them in real life.

Oblivion ... well, these people are just names. If one comes and one goes, they're beyond my "monkeysphere" - the physical limit of the number of people I'm capable of noticing individually. Half the time I'm comparing two mods and you could switch the name tags around and I just wouldn't know. You could tell me who they're by and I still wouldn't know because they're just internet handles, not people I know. Magnify that by the people who don't participate regularly on the forums, and you have even less recogition there. They can't tell Qarl from Quarn or Meek from Feek. I bet 9/10 of the people who downloaded Qarl's texture pack don't even know who it's by, much less would actually know anything about him or even noticed he'd gone.

Does that mean I'm disparaging Qarl? I love Qarl. Sometimes we have soppy "you're such a good friend" conversations and sometimes we yell and scream at each other but we've been through all the good times and the bad together and he means more to me than most people on this forum, I can tell you. Yet I still use someone else's textures in at least two of my games, because it doesn't matter to me that Qarl made it or didn't make it, I'll just use the best mod to do the job.

What do I hope to achieve by telling you all this? To make you think less of Qarl? Heavens, no! Just to have a bit more patience - or at least insight - with the multitude of people using your mod that might not think of you as an "artist" (more a "crafter") and might not even particularly care whether you made it or how you were feeling when you did. I think modders have too many expectations of users if they really expect them to personally care much about them - they're just after a plugin for their game. Or maybe I just have too many expectations of a modder to think that they can ever think that's OK.

We will just have to agree to completely disagree on this one.

To the others: I hope I am not coming across arrogant regarding ORE. I have looked objectively at what is available outside the community and what has been contributed by the ORE community and considered the question Dev_akm put up about ORE and can only come to the conclusion that ORE has had a big impact on Oblivion house modding. The mods created by ORE members speak for themselves and many mods were created through the challenges. I cannot simply dismiss, discount and belittle the contributions of an entire community that have advanced our area of modding, and declare their contributions unnecessary in the short or long run.

The same goes for all other contributors of all mods, tools, sites .....you are all valued and all not replaceable, period. And I hope this thread does not discourage new modders and old alike by making them think their contribution is so easily dismissed and unnecessary and that they as individuals are, because that is just not the case. A community is made of up individuals, when one leaves it affects all, like it or not.

With that I leave the discussion.

1- The people that are simply saying that though modding would go one without specific modders, there is still a lose of a unique choice the original modder would have provided. Sure if (and continuing the housing mod example) Bond never modded Oblivion, we would still have plenty of other house mods to download. That is fact and not one person in this thread is debating that. However, wouldn't we have lost the unique choice that is Star Ship Orion? Now of course we would not mourn the loss of this unique choice because we never had it to miss in the first place. But that does not change the fact that this unique mod would no longer be one of the available choices, whether we are aware of its absence or not.

Could some other modder have come along and made a star ship house mod? Of course one could, but would it be exactly the same as Bond's had he never been around? The chances of that are so small I can't even begin to guess what they would be. And any difference, no matter how slight (if by some freak chance it was close), is a uniqueness. So since his creation is unique, then his absences would create the loss of this unique choice, no matter how many other housing mods there are and no matter the fact that we would be unaware of the loss.

Now the flipside, just as possible as it is that someone else could have come along and made a star ship house mod in a world where Bond never modded Oblivion, it is just as possible that no one ever would. We just can not say definitively either way. Saying that, the void caused if it never existed guarentees its eventually existance anyway, as fact is false. It is not fact, only a possibility and with possibility comes that chance that it may never come to be as well. Besides, how can one say as fact that anyone else would perceive the lack of a star ship house mod in a swords & sorcery, elves & orcs fantasy game?


2- The people that completely circumvent the arguement of uniqueness, as well as those that seem to be talking about possibilities as fact. These are the people that say that just because there are other house mods to download, nothing would be lost if existing ones were never created. In continuing the earlier example, it's as if saying that if Bond never made his mods, nothing would be lost because we would have other house mods to download. As I said above, yes if Bond never modded, we could not mourn the loss of his house mods since we never knew them and we would still have other house mods to choose from. But that's where this argument falls apart, because the people in camp #1 already agree with the last sentance. Yet even though camp #1 agrees because it is not what they are arguing against, this is still the argument continually used incorrectly as a counterpoint. Saying that other mods and other modders would still exist does not counter the point that each modder brings their own unique vision and implementation to most of mods they create (especially with house mods and quest mods). Of course a house mod can be "replaced" with another house mod, but does that guarantee that the unique content and/or implementation drawn from the mind of a unique individual would be exactly duplicated, without ever existing in the first place for comparison, by another completely different and unique individual at some point? No, of course not, again the chances of that are so small I can not even begin to guess what they would be. Does that mean that the "replacement" modder's release would be somehow less beautifully unique? No not at all, in fact it could possibly be just as beautifully unique. If that was that case, does that mean we did not lose a unique option just because another different unique option exists? No, we still lost the unique choice that is that mod, despite whether we're aware of the loss or not, simply because that is what unique is.


At least that's what I see going on here and I have read those posts carefully and fully. The above should spell out my take clear enough, but for the short version:

1- "No matter how many other house mods there may be, that does not change the fact that each house mod is unique in some way. Therefore, by being unique in even the smallest way, the absence of that mod would create the loss of a unique choice, no matter whether we're aware of the loss or not."

2- "If that particular house mod never existed it wouldn't matter because there would be other house mods to install. Because of this, there is no loss, not to mention that if it never existed we could never mourn the loss of that choice anyway."

1- "*scratches head*... So your completely ignoring that we said there would be a loss of a unique choice to say that there would be other choices???"

2- "There wouldn't be a loss of a unique choice because if it wasn't created by one, another would come along and create it."

1- "That may be true for a simple tweak mod like "+5 Attributes at Level-up Always", but how can you guarantee a possibility? Saying that someone else could come along and make the exact same house mod, down to every last detail without said reference ever existing, despite the mind-bogglingly small probability, is one thing and a true statememt. But saying that someone else definitely will come along and make the exact same mod, down to every last detail without said reference ever existing, just because it may have existed, is a whole other thing. How can you guarantee that?"

2- "We're not saying it would be exactly the same, we're just saying that the "replacement" would work for us just fine and we'd play as if nothing was missing."

1- "So your not denying that house mods are unique."

2- "No."

1- "*face-palm*... Well that brings us right back to the beginning! Therefore, by being unique in even the smallest way, the absence of that mod would create the loss of a unique choice, no matter whether we're aware of the loss or not."

2- "If that particular house mod never existed it wouldn't matter because there would be other house mods to install. Because of this, there is no loss, not to mention that if it never existed we could never mourn the loss of that choice anyway."

1- "This is going in circles now... Nevermind, we're done with this discussion."


Again, this is what seems to be going on here to me, and what I believe Skycaptain was trying to point out in his last post. Of course we must realize that this has been a largely off-topic discussion, since it is about modder replacability as opposed to being about whether or not mod users demand too much of modders.



Agreed, though that's a different discussion. It may in fact be on-topic as to the thread title, but as I said in the last sentance above the above quote, the discussion as predominately been on a different topic.



Well that's at least one thing we can all