This is a continuation of In general, mod users expect too much from mod creators.

The previous topic is one of those fairly long group controversies, with some strongly felt and argued positions. I'm sure that I can't do it justice here, but in brief, there were differences regarding:
* The relationship between mod users and mod creators.
* How significant the contribuiton of mod creators is.
* How unique the contribution of individual modders is, or in other words...
* How replaceable individual modders are.
* How cliqueish this community is.

It may be that, at this point, the discussion is mostly played out. However, the topic was closed near the 199 limit, when it had not fully died down, so I'm adding this as a possible continuation for anyone who wants to comment further.

I'm limiting this first post to just a summary. Please feel free to suggest items/issues which I've missed.

I think SOME mod users demand too much from creators, and each modder has it's own style...

"It's"?

I've never had anyone really expect too much from me personally (at least, nothing that comes to mind,) though I certainly have seen examples of mod users expecting modders to bend over backwards. Request threads seem to exemplify this a lot ("Why won't you make me a custom textured, custom modeled axe of doom!?")

And so it begins, again.

In my stand, I find many modders irreplaceable! Sure if they are gone and "replace", the one that replace the modder is just, different. They don't have the same spark like the predecessor. It different. Unique. That how I view many modders; unique in their own, special way. Their own spark. Its just the similarity is there.

As for some mod users and raters, there are some that I find those who are truely disgraceful. Some mod user just ask as too much toward the mod creators, even beyond the mod creator's abilities.

As for the raters, oh I hate those who down rated a mod for the following reason:

*because the mod is made a bunch of time (i.e. armor retextures)
*morons who low rated the mod just because it does what it suppose to do
*those who HARDLY read the dam readme/description
*saying the mod is crap and NOT contribute to how it could make the mod better
*Just because its anime
*spammer and trolls

To end my rant, I would said this: Kudos and Gracias to all the Modders that made the TES series a fun experiences!

Peace!

Firstly, Wrye. Thanks for your clarity and depth of thought on this issue.



The fact that this thread has exceeded 200 posts would suggest that many people disagree with you. You have actually helped it to rise from the depths. Should this topic remain one that no-one should post about, or perhaps this topic needed to happen so a catharsis of some description can occur? Whatever, I have enjoyed reading the various opinions stated here and feel it has been a healthy discussion.



Nicely put. Brilliant piece of lateral thinking.



Who is this "he-who-should-not-be-named"? Is this the equivalent of an "in-joke"? I have no idea what you are talking about as I haven't been active on the forums for very long. Does this not amount to a form of censorship? I have gotten the impression a few times in the forums that there are certain historical events that have occurred on these forums that have a certain air of negativity and secrecy about them, and about which posters allude to in vague terms - probably to avoid causing further offense. Why the vagueness? Why not just refer to them specifically so that we ALL feel included. Ok, I could PM someone and ask, but shouldn't we be able to have an open AND frank discussion?

OK, back to the topic. I take issue, like Wrye et al, with those who say that modders/their mods are replaceable. Lets take it right back to "the beginning". If Bethesda had not developed Oblivion (let's just ignore the previous games for arguments sake), no game like Oblivion would exist. To create an epic work like Oblivion requires a unique blend of vision, scope, passion, creativity, technical know-how and commitment. Take one aspect - the lore. The depth, complexity and creativity of the lore supporting Tamriel continues to astound me. Vision, passion and creativity are NOT replaceable commodities.

So, Bethesda (read: the modder) is irreplacable, and therefore Oblivion (read: the mod), or a game like it wouldn't exist if Bethesda didn't. Who else is making good-looking, free-roaming, 1st-person perspective CRPG's of the quality and scope of Bethesda?

The fact that the last thread exceeded 200 posts would suggest that many people had gripes with the community. Unfortunately, it's a never ending conversation and could exceed 200 threads, the problem being, the issue just goes around and around without anything being done about it.

Also, shout out from Christchurch!

Continuing the Topic: I come pretty close to agreeing with bg2408. (The two of us are usually pretty much in sync on "political issues".) And I wasn't sure about continuing it. Sometimes it's better to let stuff die. However, my net judgement was that it was best to provide folks a venue to continue to speak their mind.

Vagueness: The forum rules are a bit restrictive about negative posts. So if someone is being a total pain in the butt, you're not supposed to say so, but instead report them to the moderator. "Excessively negative" posts will also be deleted. IMO, the policy is a bit excessive (makes me feel like I'm on a playground and have to run to the teacher). But it's the ground rules of the forum. So that's part of the reason for vagueness, we can't really speak bluntly about some folks without risking getting the posts trimmed up a bit by moderators.

Note: It is easier to have these discussions these days. I remember similar efforts of mine on the Morrowind forums that got too rowdy due to some excessive posts by some users, and got locked. Those locks were not entirely unwarranted. And I appreciate that the moderators have helped tremendously in keeping these forums pretty civil. While I disagree somewhat on where to draw the "too rowdy" line, I appreciate that isn't an easy decision to make, especially when there are lot of forums and a lot of posts to police.

I have read through the previous thread in its entirety. I think "gripes" is too strong a word, and "community" too general. Many were just relating their experiences - good AND bad. And the poor experiences were about a very small segment of the community. Well, I seriously doubt that they could actually be termed a "part" of the community, but that is mere speculation.

Perhaps the issue has gone round in circles to a certain extent, but I think some will feel better for having had expressed their opinions which, up until this point, they may have been keeping to themselves for fear of being flamed, or maybe having not had the opportunity.

Yeeeeehaaaaaaa! CHCH! Alias: The Village of the Damned. I grew up there......back in Auckland now.

I'll pipe in again with my newcomer, little heard forum-goer voice, and say that I don't believe any one individual is replaceable, period. I don't limit this to mods, relationships, or anything else. I simply feel that all people (and fuzzy small animals ) have something to contribute to the experience that is life, and that the individual contributions cannot be done exactly like they are by anyone but the original contributor. I could bring another man into my house, have him work on the car, mow the lawn, etc. This does not mean that this man would replace my man, simply that he would be "doing the general things my man does". In this way, perhaps a mod could be "replaced" by another mod, i.e. function in the same way or perform the same task, but this is not to say that the first mod would be replaced. For example, take mod A which makes night-eye toggleable, and mod B does the same thing; in this case, you could use one or the other. However, each modder, when deciding to create their mod, went about it in their own way, adding their own take on the task at hand, and more importantly IMHO, took their own time to make the mod in the first place.

IMO Modders are not replaceable, any more than any other individual is replaceable. I personally see any contribution to a community as unique and deserving of recognition. When I drive down the interstate, I always see those guys walking around picking up the trash. You know what I never see? People stopping to thank them. Do I still see trash on the interstate? Certainly. However, I'm sure that when the day comes when I no longer see the people picking it up, I will see a lot more trash. In this way, does it matter "who" is picking up the trash? No. However, if I were to stop, talk to these people, learn about their lives, then there would be a distinct difference when one finally got fed up and quit bothering. Similarly, I could choose to look at the plethora of available mods and say to myself that "any one of such and such mods" will do, but I don't choose to do that. I choose to try to see the creator as an individual who, regardless of talent, sparkle and shine, is making something and choosing to share it with the public. They have their stories, dreams and hopes just like everyone else. They have their own unique visions. They are individuals. When they leave, it will leave an empty space that no other individual will be able to fill, even if they do the same general thing.

I do not believe it is the right of the mod user to demand anything from the mod creator. If I decide to add a mod to my game and it chews it up into a million billion bits, my mistake. I certainly find it helpful when a mod creator takes the time to write a thorough readme, just as I appreciate a clean mod, but these things are not in my control, nor should they be. It's ultimately my decision whether I use a mod, and keep using it. The creator owes me nothing. Similarly, I owe them nothing, however I like to thank them for their time. I guess it's a matter of how friendly two people are, which will decide how they interact. There will always be those dips who leave bad ratings for no reason, criticize for no reason, etc. It's a shame, but it seems to be human nature to an extent. I don't know how I would feel if that sort of thing happened to me continually, or if I would be able to put up with it, or want to put up with it. I've come to the community too late to have the chance to appreciate the works of some who have left. I think it's a sad thing indeed, when those of us who know how to treat others with respect are left without their works, but ultimately it is their choice whether they continue contribute or not. I would not say to one of them, "Please, continue to put up with this crap so I can continue to enjoy your work!"

As far as a how cliqueish the community is, I'm perhaps not the right person to answer that, as I truly don't know. I do know my very first post here was something like "I can't unzip the 7zip file.. please help." Someone (I honestly didn't even read their handle) responsed and was understandably short with me. After all, there are a million of these silly questions everyday. However, I did notice it, and it did leave a teenie mark. This is not to say that I now need therapy, just that I didn't feel welcomed. Don't run for the tissues, though. Everything is fine nowadays, and at times I'm actually able to help some other noob, which is nice. Plus, with some lucky clicking, I've managed to piece together part of the enigma of "he-who-should-not-be-named".

Of course. It's rather hard to put firm terms on these groups and describe what is happening in these threads but I feel that my description is fairly justified. Whether or not it is intentional, these threads always seem to lean in the way of "Us poor modders, why do we do it when people just complain?" Now, I'm not sure how you would put that but that is essentially people bringing to bear the "gripes" that they have with the community. It can also come down to "experiences" as you put it and how the modders on this forum can share the nasty ones that they have had and vent to let off steam but it's essentially the same thing is it not?

In terms of the negative part of the community, it may not be large in numbers but if it's big and persistent enough to get these threads out of us, I think the the word "community" can also be justified. Also, secluding them from the community seems rather harsh, just because we don't agree with what they think and how they act upon it, they are still part of our group that shares TES games. I also firmly believe that it is going to grow, Bethesda are branching out with their games (Fallout 3) so it's inevitable that we gain a larger community because of it, not all of them are going to be desirable but how is it fair that we segregate them?


I agree, people do need to express their opinions but there isn't much point in doing so unless some resolution is made, of course, this is just my personal preference of doing things. As I said, this portion of people is only going to get larger and there isn't going to be a way for us to just ignore them further down the track, so why not do something to prevent this kind of thing happening? Threads like this just attract unwanted attention and immature comments and as a result, they get locked down fairly early to the dismay of modders who want to get in their say, feelings grow and boil over, the result being that we lose more modders from the community, example Alienslof. I think that this could of been prevented, not in stopping the comments that come from the negative people but rather in allowing people such as Alienslof a place to vent their frustrations.

Maybe some sort of forum could be set up where this could happen? An idea only, of course.


I was born in Auckland and moved down here! How ironic.

Thanks for keeping this going - it is a relevant thread for modding communities, I almost exclusively participate in the Morrowind modding forum but believe this thread is universal

There were some very thoughtful posts in the previous thread - one caught my eye regarding modding to the needs of the community and therefore modders arise that will create something to fill that need. There are some mod management tools that I would find modding quite difficult without such as Nifskope. However does that mean that Nifskope is critical to modding nope before nifskope was created there were other options available and I believe if Nifskope hadn't been created then someone else would of created a tool that performed a similar function - heck they may have even made a comprehensive Wiki that explained how to use it

This doesn't mean that the modders are replaceable or irreplaceable just that they saw a need and filled a gap - once the gap was filled the demand drops - however if suffiecient demand was created again likely someone else would create something that would also achieve filling that need.

I believe that mod users tend to misunderstand the positions they are placed in. It is only because of the efforts of modders and modding communities that these mods are even being shared publicly. Without these communities, it would be harder for people to even know that mods exist for a game. Also without these communities, where mods ranging from full adventures to more senseless things, like a slaughterfish weapon, would people be encouraged to share what they have made for their own personal interests because someone else out there might want the same kind of thing. Mods exist purely because some modder somewhere decided to make said mod, and because said modder decided to share said mod. Very few modders get started because they want to do things for others. If modders were working entirely to appease the mod users, very few of us would have even started since it is much easier to ask for a mod, and complain about how it sucks, than to make it ourselves. As modders, we could always simply decide to stop sharing our content if we felt that the users were being too abusive. This is not selfish, this is our right as the creators of that content, and the user needs to be aware of this before they go on about how a mod isn't what they want. We spend the effort, we should be able to decide who should benefit from it.

That said, not all modders are replaceable. When one of those more skilled, or familiar persons leaves the modding scene, a good part of what they were about is missing. An example of this would be someone like AlienSlof. Although most of what they did was work on common things, like textures or meshes, the amount of effort which went into the projects, the style of the projects, and the quality made it unique. Modding is no different than any other form of art in this respect. There are some artists which aren't too different from each other, and produce the same kind of quality or style, and can be replaced without losing much, then there are artists who bring their own methods, styles, and ideas to the media, who cannot be replaced. Just because someone can imitate the style of Picasso, or even establish their own which is similar, doesn't mean that they can do the same kind of work as Picasso. Although this applies more to things like new textures or meshes, which are much harder to re-create, the concept can still work for things like worldbuilding, scripting, dungeon planning, or quest writing. If those who are really skilled leave, the community is usually left with some sort of large gap since those projects being worked on don't get finished, and the knowledge that person had is no longer there to be passed on to others. As people left Morrowind modding for Oblivion, much of the Morrowind community was left with the absence of those skilled people who left (some who came back after they realized what was missing in Oblivion). When people left Oblivion for FO3, the same thing happened to a lesser extent.

Mod User Song

Think of this song when mod users make requests

Over the years I've been fortunate to work with a number of modders, beta testing and basic troubleshooting both before and after the release of their mods.
Don't take this the wrong way as I'm not trying to be disrespectful to those who spend most of their modding time creating re-textures of armour, making housing or clothing mods.
Without taking anything away from them, these are comparatively simple mods to make in comparison to some.
From some of the comments of fellow modders I'm not sure if these individuals fully understand just how much time and effort can go into even a simple fix without screwing something elsewhere in a mod.
I've seen the non appearance of a quest NPC take three weeks to fix properly.

There's been times I've been left open mouthed at the receptions to some mods.
I'll give one example:
After some 20 months in development the modder was greeted on release with comments like :

"What! I gotta complete the main quest first? That sux. I want the reward now."
"Is there a way to get the XXX without doing the stupid quest?"
"What"s the console command to finish this thing."
"30 hours to complete. I'm not gonna wait that long"
"I don't have SI. Why's it got a dependency"
Those are quotes from this Forum. Not exactly feedback.

This type of comment comes mainly from the fly-by-nights who play Oblivion for a couple of weeks before moving on to the next shoot 'em up release, but it gives an insight into the minds of some of our users.
The unfortunate thing is that users who do appreciate mods tend to be the silent majority and rarely leave comments after experiencing them.
If you view remarks on PES and TESNEXUS how many large scale mods are rated at 7 or 8. Massive amounts of work and creativity went into most of these.
Then look at an Exnem armour re-texture on the same site. It's 10's almost across the board.
Oblivion was created largely for the console market and I think that shows with the type of downloads that appear to be most popular.
It's also perhaps one of the main reasons many can't, won't or refuse to use the many utilities that are necessary to run a fully modded game.
Again, these are the same users who appear, create dozens of threads, fire nonsense questions and statements, then disappear as quickly as they arrived.

There was no doubt in my mind before this thread these were the main body of users that were the most unappreciative of modders.
It appears that I was wrong.
The latest in a long list ito have had enough is AlienSlof. Although not a user of any of her mods, they certainly were unique with a style and flair all of their own.
But this thread has revealed a general upsurge in the feeling of "So what if you leave. Your replaceable".
And it's coming from some long standing and respected members of the forum.

I just can't figure this one out.

Wonder why some modders withdraw their work, uninstall the game and take their talents elsewhere?

It's because he-who-shall-not-be-named was a particularly good example of a modder who did not take criticism in any form in anything approaching a good way. Innocent bug reports turned into 5 page flamewars - quickly. The threads for his mods always turned into that. Eventually he left after declaring that most of us here were out to get him, or some other conspiratorial thing. It got to the point where posting anything about any of his mods would turn into massive arguments and name calling - even after he left. So it's more or less our way of not promoting him by virtue of discussing him by name. There's a fairly good chance you might even be able to guess who this person is with enough poking around.

Not taking part in this discussion so far.
Pure mod user I am, completely useless when it comes to modding. but asa user, in nigh to 3 years I learned a lot. And namely:

1. Mod creating is not compulsory. you have the skills, the imagination and the willing to spend huge amount of time and efforts, you do it.
You have generosity - you share. You gain my respect, I gain more interesting game.

2. Mod using is also not compulsory.
You have good rig, you want to run more interesting game, you are willing to take the risk and try something not included in what you bought from Bethesda, be my guest.

3. Post-release conflicts. The worst thing that can happen no people using mods is not a CTD or total mess in need of reinstalling from scratch.
The worst thing is the lack of tolerance and gratitude some people show around.
Conflict? The guy didn't know my load order. The guy didn't think of my PC specifications while making the mod.

4. As per me, I think that I understand this:
The modder had nice idea and implemented it.
I have good taste and add their mod to my load order.

It is not modder's fault things didn't work as supposed. Life often doesn't work as supposed. I am not angry with the guy. I ask them can they fix it for me?
Yes? Brilliant, I can enjoy the mod. No? More the pitty but it is not the modder's fault. Not all our efforts bring nice results.

There is no need to become nasty and start abusing people who in fact give me for free more entertainment than all the live TV in the world.
The least I can do is be polite to modders. And show some respect. And manners.
Lack of home upbringing and good manners accounts for over 95% of all personal conflicts I witnessed around.

You might be a rich guy with excellent rig but here you have the same rights and obligations and the guy who likes the game and tries to ron Modblivion with CPU 1.5 GHz and RAM 1GB.
You might be the best modder this place have ever seen but this does not give you the right to treat me like [censored].

How do you think I feel when I hear someone spoke badly to AlienSlof and made her leave?
What wrong has she done? Did she charge anyone a single penny/cent/kopeika? Were people forced to use her mods? And yet one some among us managed to make her leave.
This must not be tolerated. We are bleeding brilliant modders only because there are no rules to kick out foul-mouthed members.

We are loosing good people because of someboby who cannot rein their disappointment, resentment or whatever bad feelings they had and feel they must offend.
Well, such people must go. Far-Far_Away.

This is a perfect example to illustrate my point that every layman can come and to the brim of their wrinkled dry hearts abuse the well established modders.
I wonder what mods this fella created. Can there be found way to ban such people from the mod section?
They should be allowed to read treads and download mods but should be silenced for good and ever with no rights to post in mod section.

I believe some people in the fallout community should see this.....i reckon half of them are FPS players, they jump on the bandwagon of every huge overhaul, are quite rude with comments about things they dont like. Of course not everyone is like that, its only a very small group, but you always seem to find them.

It oblivion's beginning days all over again. They could really learn from the past i reckon.



funny how their grammer and english is always horrible...

My apologies but I read that quote from frouteboras quite differently - sounded like he was having a rant at the mechanics of the forum - perhaps like me had clicked on a thread link only to find it no longer existed.

I read that quote as praising the moddding community for adding more value to the game than what the poster originally paid for - though I think the poster got a bit carried away in comparing Blizzard to Beth

My error If I misunderstood

My point was that there is no need to use rudeness at all. It can only offend. It definitely does not emphasize one's point, it shows only lack of communication skills.
If you think that using foul language is the right way to praise someone, then I really should shut up. Or, to use the praising language, I should probably Please continue, my good sir.

And somehow I doubt dev_akm or Corepc will be overjoyed with such praise...

Shouting out back at ya - from not far away either. I'm in CHCH myself Been back for a couple of months now.

What bugs me, is the sheer negativity from users at times. Whether it be directed to me or anyone else, there is just no need. And constantly, well, it's easy to see why modders pull their works when pushed; end result - we lose valuable contributions from the community, and those that inspire us are no longer there, and the talent pool shrinks, and for games like OB/MW, that could be the beginning of the end. I hope we never see that day, where the complaints outweigh the contribution, even from Bethesda themselves. Long live the Elderscrolls series (at least to ES10, where it will be Octa Core optimised, with Quad Sli (2TB Vram so we can run Qarl's textures )and 10Tb DDR50Ram), and the generous modding community that keeps it alive. And long live Bethesda so they keep the series going for a long time, and the contribution of the CS (Which by ES10 includes the equivalent of photoshop, 3dsMax, etc all in the one package - well, by ES5 would be nice too... ).

Coors916

Hi just pooped in to say I am mod user and I really like all or most of the creations for Oblivion
Awesome work there are some pretty impressive projects for oblivion that are making Oblivion like whole another game !

I was flipping through old comments on Nexus this morning on a very popular mod looking for compatibility-related info, and I came across a post where someone had given a rating of "1" because the mod depended on another download.

The mod was Elaborate Eyes. And the download it depended on was OBMM. I *almost* reported the post, but it was from two years ago. It still made my fur stand up, though. I already spent my wad in the last thread, but I thought this was worth mentioning as a prime example of the original poster in the original thread actually being right.

Modders gived me immersion and the posibility to RP, with options I didn't have in vanilla Oblivion. Becouse of them, many people still buy/play this game and I am one of those people.

I've never seen a rude modder(and if I did, then I don't remember), but I've seen lot's of trolls, ever since I found out about PES forums(2006) then TES(in 2007) and then the official forums.

I always rate what I like and use and give feedback every time I have something to say.


Cheers!

p

Meh. I work in retail. Most of the people you meet there are rude and stupid most of the time and they expect you to do everything for them, including think; why should mod users be any different? If you mod for the love of people, you will be sorely disappointed. If you mod for the love of modding, you won't be disappointed. Assuming you understand that most people are rude and stupid. Not exempting myself, most of the time.

I find it helps to ask yourself: would you rather be modding, or replying to idiots on a forum? Personally, I find both activities entertaining, so it really just depends on my mood.

Thanks for the continuation, Wrye.



True. Some modders act badly. Some mod users act badly. Some good things get ignored. Some average things get undue attention. But this is the exception rather than the rule and many of us work hard to help overcome these problems in the community rather than just complaining about it.



I would argue that being inspired by and thankful for what has been done before is far better encouragement. The old adage is true here as well: those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.



Nobody said we were dependent on these things. BTMod was revolutionary for its time, but others built on those beginnings and made greater things. It's a perfect example of each new generation of mods standing on the shoulders of giants who came before.



That's just wrong. We might have had a Bethesda exporter, but not until more than two years after the game was released, and even then it would've only worked for an old version of 3DSMAX. How many mods would simply not exist by now if we had to wait that long and live with those limitations? It's a very large and significant number that would've never existed or would only just now be gaining momentum. Years of progress and enjoyment lost.



So their contributions just allowed others to be lazy?

Strangely enough I felt this way about the Morrowind modding community for quite a while until I became acquainted with the other Morrowind modders and to some degree joined a certain 'clique' group. I haven't felt that about the Oblivion community because I realized a few things. . In any community there is a group of well knowns, who post everyday and become recognizable, they are not necessarily a clique or elitist, they are simply a group of people who know each other well. In order to become part of that community we have to integrate ourselves over time by joining in consistently, just as in real life. Neither you nor I have done this to any extent in this particular Oblivion community, so without us putting in some effort to join in and get to know everyone, of course we will feel the outsiders.

For my part, with my involvement in my own community I am rarely seen here except to defend myself when someone throws accusations or there is a heated discussion about something I feel very strongly on. Which understandably has given some the impression that I need anger management or something. My own community knows a very different me because I put in the effort to become a part of it and they all know me personally.

So I think if we had both made the effort to become a consistent part of this community it would be a different story. So I don't think it is all that fair to say there is a 'clique' group here but rather, just b688 as the group you were and are a part of in Morrowind, there is a group that knows each other well, becomes good friends and therefore hangs out together, like every other community. We who came from the Morrowind community were starting again in a totally new community. Like transferring jobs or schools, we had to start again and join in, getting to know others and becoming known ourselves. But we didn't because of our involvement else where.

As for modding 'royalty', sorry but that seemed to be the case in Morrowind too. I came to Morrowind in September 2005 and quickly learned the names of the 'top modders'. It was the same case as for here, if someone offended a well known modder the community would rise up in backlash. Well known modders would receive hundreds of replies on their wip's and relz's while other lesser knowns would receive very few. My first public Morrowind release thread received less then one page of replies before dying and so did more releases after that. That said there were welcoming people, yourself for one that went out of your way to welcome and include people. There are such people here too. Brendan62 didn't 'take off' here because the only thing he posted was release threads. In order to become a part of a community we need to be involved in everything that is going on, consistently.

So I don't think this community is any different from any other community, Morrowind included, and while people not involved may perceive it as 'elitest' or having a 'clique', it is just the crowd of 'regulars' interacting.

This is an important life lesson.

Strange, I had no idea it had got this bad, although I knew quite well from past experience that a small but dedicated minority of mod users could be unappreciative, demanding etc I had no idea so many mod creators thought of themselves as irreplaceable walking demigods these days, kind of makes me want to puke. A couple of years ago when I was most active there was only a handful of these super-egos’s walking around insisting they are invaluable but over the last 200+ posts the number increased exponentially or unless its just the same five or six people re-posting over again but it seemed to be different names.

You utterly missed that we were talking about ALL modders being irreplaceable. Not just a handful, not anyone in particular...all. The examples we used were used because they were blatant, well known examples.

Hmmm. You may want to re-read that last thread. I also think you missed the actual civil discussion and exchange of thoughts. I guess if you approached it with a negative attitude, that you could interpret it differently. I read through the last thread as it grew, had a couple of PM conversations with a couple of modders on the topic, but didn't weigh in. I was puzzled over the original intent of the original thread, about mod-users but watched it evolve into a conversation about modding, modders, why you do it, what's needed, what's changed, how frustrating the demands of the users can be. And not all of you agree with each other. Not all of you create mods for the same reasons. But mod-users - they are all adding mods for pretty much the same reason - to enhance and improve their game experience. I know that I personally would not have played Oblivion for as long and consistently as I have if I had not finally discovered the modding community here back in late '06.

It's not necessarily that individual mods or mods are easily replaceable, in my opinion - it's more that like with anything, should one person go away, or remove their contributions from the field of play... chances are good that someone else will eventually come along and make a similar contribution. Not the same, not a one-for-one replacement. And having said that, I do think there are a few of the utilities or mods that are pretty amazingly unique and were/are really a matter of the right person being there at the right time, with the requisite set of skills and desire to do something, or the impetus provided by other mods/modders to create a tool or mod. If a modder leaves, he or she is not truly replaced, in the sense that they are not missed, that their mods are not missed, because if someone comes along doing something similar, it does not overlay or erase what was removed before. It adds to it. I guess I view communities like this as almost organic (for lack of a better word) - they shift, shrink or grow and continually change over time.

Since I am strictly one of those mod-users (I don't make mods, but I played a modder on TV!) I think that the vast majority of those of us are sensible, mature types (not necessarily age-mature, but behavior-mature). I think that most of us are perfectly aware that there are people behind these mods, who are doing this for fun, for free and so on. However, there are a fair amount of members on this forum - many of them still not at a point of maturity where common sense kicks in when you get momentarily frustrated. Used to both an instant gratification "Hey, I plugged this game in, it works. Why can't I just flip a switch with FCOM! This suxxorz, it's broke!" and a way of communicating in haste... I think the result is some of those mod-users posting poorly thought out comments, or posting before they even made an attempt to figure out what the problem is - since a high percentage of the time, it could be something they can figure out themselves. But I think it's fair to say that a lot of mod-users would be and are more... sensible.

As a modder, if you decide to put your work out there, regardless of the fact that you put it out there for free and that this is a hobby, not your job... is it fair to say that you do have to accept that some people are just going to behave poorly? The good with the bad, as it were. It's a pointless effort to get defensive about your work, in the face of some people being idiots in their behavior. Their behavior is a reflection on them, not on you or your work. But it also helps to not get defensive if someone respectfully points out issues with something you have released. If your mod is even slightly "controversial" in some respect, make use of the tools available- turn off comments on TESNexus, use the report button here if some jack_ass is a persistent thorn.

As mod-users, self-absorbed "Fix this for meeeeee!' type behavior should be left at the door, but we cannot make people pay attention to what they are doing, or force them to read a readme, or take 10 minutes to read through the RELz thread for useful info. . Pity, but the result will be that there will always be a pocket of "common-sense resistance." I think though, that although they are vocal, it is a minority. Looking at all the downloads of various mods I use, it tells me that there are a LOT more of us out there who take responsibility for what we download and add to our game, with the implied "thank you very much you are awesome for doing this" out there because the mod is fun, it caused no problems because we followed instructions, and have patience to use the tools we are also happy to have.

Every single individual's viewpoint may vary, but I don't recall seeing any posts to suspect the poster considering himself/herself "as irreplaceable walking demigods".

I'm amazed. I admit to being a rather egotistical person, yet I've spent the last three hours reading other people's opinions because I find this (and the previous thread) an interesting and useful discussion.

Relative to the discussion of modder's being irreplaceable, as you may have seen, Alien Slof has left the Oblivion community and took her mods with her. She said she left because the negative criticism of her mods was affecting her health. Anyone who has used her mods doesn't need me to tell them about the quality and uniqueness of her craft. So, there has been an ongoing discussion of the irreplaceability of modders in a rather abstract way. Here is an example of a real loss to our community and there's nothing abstract about it. Is there anything we can do about it or can we, at least, understand it? I believe part of the answer may be that much of the negative criticism comes from casual users. These users are often unfamiliar with the details of installing a mod and usually have no idea what effort it takes to create, say, 60MB of new content. Some seem to have a very short attention span as well. No, I do not want to start a bash the new guy over from the console league here. It doesn't matter where they come from, users who know little about installing mods and less about what it takes to create them, especially if they also expect instant gratification, are, unsurprisingly, the ones least likely to appreciate them. That's an unfortunate fact of life here. If you have well known mods like Alien Slof's, that means a significant number of negative comments/ratings.

I wish I could say I have the solution, I do not. So far my mods have been better received that I could have reasonably hoped. I'm trying to steel myself to the likely fact that, if they get more widespread attention, there will be the "It's not my cup of tea, I give it a 6". Maybe, I'll continue to be lucky.

On a slightly different tack, there's been a good bet of discussion about why we mod. I respectfully disagree with Princess_Stomper. It's not that I think I'm "right" and she is "wrong". I think it's more that we mod for different reasons, and this applies to the community in general. I'm one where feedback is essential, although I realize that that makes me more vulnerable to negative criticism. I do believe that at least some mods are, in a way, a work of art. Years ago, after spending an unreasonable amount of time creating a scenario for Age of Wonders, one of the comments was "The best AoW Map I ever played". From my point-of-view, I had created something, not knowing for sure how it would be received, then found that this person and many others "got it". That pretty much made my day. Maybe I'm egotistical or just insecure, but for me, the risk of negative comments is far outweighed by the chance of comments like that.

It seems that much of this discussion has been directed toward unwarranted negative criticism with little or no discussion of the effects of positive feedback. I can't believe I'm the only one that finds this an important part of why I mod.

I've tried to understand these things, I just do not. I can't understand why people rate a mod on Nexus based on their personal taste. I also can't understand ratings like "I have given this a rating of 10; This looks great, downloading now.." IMHO, a mod should be rated based on its functionality, doing what it says it does, well. When I find a mod I want to download and comment on, I do not rate. Similarly, I do not rate based on my personal taste, but rather based on the quality of the mod. For that matter, if I find a mod has issues or whatnot, I don't rate at all, I just post a question or problem. To each his own, I suppose.

I think there is a place in the world for all types of beliefs, art, culture, opinion. I may not personally "like" what some people do, or the music they make, etc.; but they still have every right to create it. If I don't like it, I don't buy/ use/ download it. Problem solved. I don't feel the need to personally insult the creator. It's ridiculous to do that, and it shows a complete lack of self esteem. If I already know what music I want to listen to, knowing other music is in existence is not going to put a crunch in my day. And anyway, who am I to be deciding what should or should not be created? Who is anyone? It's not difficult to simply avoid things. I am especially baffled by this when I see the glaring double standard that takes place continually between mods, commercials, movies, games, etc. catering to different sexes or orientations.

Having said that, I cannot pretend to know or understand how someone must feel when they are consistently berated for simply having their own style, beliefs, etc. I do wish they would not feel the need to take away from those people who are supportive, but like I said, what do I know? If it were me in that situation, I can't say how I would feel, or what I would do.

Aha! Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I'm pretty sure I know who it is, actually right from the moment I read bg's post. Does his name start with "G"? I just think it's disappointing that it gets to the stage where people can't (won't) mention him by name.

Don't you think that this is one of the reasons why people have been saying that the oblivion modding scene is too clique-ish? When you won't even mention a guy by his name because you think it is promoting him?

Oh come on guys, I feel like I am in the middle of a Harry Potter movie. The name he went by was Giskard.

We are all mature enough to have this converstaion, why not get everything out?


Wahey! Shout out matey! So many people that I am just learning are in New Zealand.

Now you've done it. Let the cat right out of the bag......You're right though - my self-censorship was pretty pointless, especially after the point I was trying to make. I too would hate to be caught in the middle of a Harry Potter movie......

Back on topic, with a twist. Given the sensitivity of some modders to criticism/flamers/trolls, how about some sort of gatekeeping service/system where one person acts as an intermediary to filter out the negative and just plain dumb questions from reaching the modder? This would mean that the modder is insulated from the blatant negativity of a few mod users, but would still receive the genuine comments and constructive criticisms/suggestions. And they would have more time to work on their mods. This system, if it could be implemented, could prevent the tragic loss of modders like Alienslof and BlackDragon66(?) et al from the modding scene, and help them to be more productive.

The gatekeeper would need to be well-read-up on the readmes, patches etc, but wouldn't need to diagnose compatibility issues or resolve bugs - just be aware of potential issues.

I, for one, would volunteer to be a gatekeeper, if we could get a system up and running. I don't see why it would be hard. Perhaps I should post this idea in its own thread?

Thoughts........?

Kind of an interesting idea, one with merit in many respects. Might prove difficult to implement as a formal system, however, if a modder knows they enjoy modding but find they (like most techie types) lack in the social prowess necessary to deal with people and their issues, it might be useful to have another person acting as a sort of go between. This "gatekeeper" could be a sort of informational buffer who could pass along filtered info to the modder, while handling the random trolls and general questions (like directing lost souls to the posted information). Though it's not something that is needed by modders in general, could be a great aid to some. Neat idea, I'd say worthy of a thread if it's something you want to roll with.

[EDIT] I wanted to remind all, as I indicated above here. You should remember that in all likelihood the majority of modders are those kids who spent all their time building robots, playing D&D, and RPGs in their basement "Hobbit holes". Not the most social of creatures. Modders love to share, but are not always the most well equipped to deal with the variety of personalities out here in cyberspace. This is one of the contributing factors to the modder sensitivity that is often criticized.

Done! Here is the new topic thread for those who would like to contribute: http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=966682

This is rather an out there suggestion and I am not even sure it is remotely feasible but I am just tossing ideas out there.

If you have your own videos on You Tube, you would have noticed the ability to moderate user comments under your videos. Beside every user comment is the option to 'remove'.

If it were possible on the larger download sites to implement moderating your own mod comments and only your own mod's comments, then it would place rather a lot of the power back in the hands of the modders who are being harassed. Modder comes online, sees very nasty comment, clicks 'remove' and bam the comment is gone and modder feels proactive. There was an immediate solution, the modder did not have to wait and rely on others. Yes, there is potential for abuse with modders possibly removing constructive comments, however that is a very small evil compared to outright abuse from trolls.

But they still read it, and even though it is removed, the internal "damage" is done. My idea is to insulate them from ALL negative comments AND improve their productivity.

i dont think modders should be sheltered. theres plenty of horrible people out there, its something we all have to learn to deal with. we cannot go around trying to protect people from damage by making the world politically correct or censoring images or blocking user comments: people will still get hurt somehow and will be even more vulnerable to the pain of n00bs because they are so sheltered. yes we need to try and prevent idiots from outright flaming modders, but it is also up to the modders to learn how to deal with said idiots.

if modders receive nothing but praise they will soon take potentially constructive critisism as flaming. i for one am afraid to post negative comments on Nexus even when the mod deserves them because of all the stories of people getting banned.

The point is that these modders don't want to learn how to deal with the negative attitudes of a few idiots. They just want to create mods and to share their work. They are who they are and they shouldn't have to change because you say that they should stop being so sheltered. Although I agree with you to a certain extent, the reality is that we have lost a truly talented and unique modder. That shouldn't have happened and we should learn from it and try to implement a solution, for those who would like to use it/one.

Nobody here is trying to make the world politically correct, nor are we censoring images. And some user comments are already blocked on the forums and removed by moderators on the download sites.

Agreed, though I don't think sheltering is quite what Loopy described as I read it. Just as some modders lack texturing skills so acquire a teammate to assist with texturing, perhaps taking on a teammate for "customer support" is a wise idea for those modders who have tried handling the needs of their consumers and find it overwhelming.

I think that if you dont like the rude comments on download sites but still want feedback you should not allow comments and then give a link to a thread on this forum. The mods here keep the ultra rude stuff out most of the time.

Well put. Thanks.

I guess really this is the solution and both large sites already have this option. Only drawback is that this eliminates all feedback if you don't come to this forum and so many don't come here.

Maybe we could some what run with a previously posted idea of mine. How about a forum or something is set up where modders can vent their frustration?

True but the rudest comments Ive ever seen come from those sites. I am sure one of those sites is where Alienslof recieved most of the comments that insulted her.

Its really a shame. You see this on the comments section on YouTube too. Very sad

They don't want frustration in the first place! Prevention is better than cure.

Prevention is something that is impossible to do. There is always going to be a way for the user to get to the modder.

Impossible is nothing.

"Look, Ed. Face it. It's impossible. It's too high. No-one will ever ascend to the summit of Everest. It can't be done."

Personally I've never liked the: "It's too hard, so let's not try" attitude.

Fair call, and I agree since I follow the same traits but I think that instead of thinking of one idea and running blindly with it, no offense meant here of course, we should hear ideas from several people and see what we can come up with.

It's not a competition afterall.

I don't think it's a good idea to let modders remove comments on their own at any time, and I say this as a modder who has seen a few mighty ugly and/or stupid comments. Modders are perfectly capable of diffusing most of it with reasoned responses - and if they aren't, that's what "report" buttons are for. Additionally, many sites discipline out-of-hand members, and allowing the modder to remove the comment on their own could prevent the moderators from doing their jobs.

As a mod user, I would like to see comments about bugs and what not as I am browsing mods. Often the resolutions will appear in the comments. I'd also like to see what other users have particularly liked or not liked, because it might be a detail not in the description that could affect my decision to download. User comments are invaluable to modders and users alike even if they are not always positive.

Hence the thread for the idea......

I'm sorry to hear that modders have put their creative projects aside, due to unconstructive comments. Trying to make people happy often means that one must grow an extremely thick skin... or simply feign deafness.

Modders should simply mod for themselves, keeping the audience in mind only through creating something that they themselves would want in a work. Some are going to like it, some aren't.... the construction kit is always there for those that don't.
---------------------
Best policy for modder survivability:
-Don't take on the stress of specifically trying to make others happy unless you get paid for it.
-This isn't a job, so if it feels like one you have taken on too much.
-Keep a low profile.

That would be a perfect policy, except that because of the unique vision of some modders, a low profile is pretty hard to maintain. I do agree with you, though. I don't think modders, or anyone else, should feel the need to cater to anyone when they are creating their art, whether they are paid or not.

I specifically remember Wrye's response to a comment like this on another thread. It was along the lines of: "Don't tell me why I should mod". The point being that modders mod for different reasons, often not simply for themselves.

Unfortunately, learning to deal with the attitudes of n00bs is part of releasing work, or using the internet in general. compared to the whole user base these people are rare, while some modders to attract them more than others. there are plenty of tools available to block them already, but in the end it all comes down to good old common sense. does it matter if some 13 year old is offended by seeing a dremora [censored]? not really, this little ass just has nothing better to do than go around and flame. ignore him, report him, block him.

we have lost "talented and unique modder[s]" many times before, no matter what we do its still going to happen. the staff of the hosting sites is doing their best to keep flamers at bay and are, imho, doing a fabulous job. likewise, i have seen very few flames on this forum. even if we wrap our modders in a big blanket of love they will still be open to the potential flame: instant messages, private messages, email, other forums... if a retard wants to make lame comments about how your mod is gay he is going to find a way to do it.

now, this all may sound really arrogant and im probably coming off as if i dont care about modder's at all. i do, believe me. ive been flamed many times, there was a time when it was fashionable and accepted by the moderators of this forum to flame TR. it made me pissed off and did make me question whether it was worth working my ass off in order to deliver to a community which did not believe that you could succeed. i did not let that get me down, and TR released a critically acclaimed, award winning morrowind mod. all those flamers sulked in the corner and hoped that we had forgotten.

i believe that modding, like every other social activity, needs to have a fun to work balance. when modding is no longer fun then quit. i refuse to believe that all these modders quit solely due to being flamed. it probably did play a part in why they chose to depart, but there have to be other reasons (both on the internet and in real life) to make one really tired of modding.



its a slippery slope. what exactly constitutes an inappropriate comment? "this sux Please continue, my good sir. [censored]" obviously does, but is "those models are really bad, you need to bevel your edges and make higher resolution textures"? there are those modders that would take that as a flame and get offended. it starts off with blocking obvious flames, then goes to blocking anything that could hurt a persons feelings, and soon enough all we are allowed to do is hug people and thank them endlessly for the amazing contribution that their glass armor recolor has made to the modding community (no offense to people who make glass armor recolors )

[edited for spelling and clarity. time to go sleep, brain shutting off.]

I guess I can't really speak for why other people mod, but I sure as heck no why I did/do it.... to make a game better (from my point of view) or to save people a buck (specifically me). If people want something changed in my mod that isn't a bug, then I fully support their alteration of it for their personal use (but they have to do it for themselves).

I believe in being polite and helpful to those who have serious questions, but if someone is rude or acting inane.... I have no problem spoon feeding them a double serving of the stuff they are trying to feed me.

Good comments Lady N - I come from a nanny state that tried to wrap it's citizens in politically correct cotton wool and that still hasn't reduced crime in the community or the impact of world meltdown. Trying to protect modders from criticism or requests seems absurd.

Someone who shares mods without being asked to is akin to someone posting an opinion without being asked to - in both examples you put your view of the world online for display and the price to pay is criticism. If someone requests something different to the modders work of art then it is up to the modder to decide whether their Mona Lisa should now frown, smile or be transformed into Mona Bernie.

I like to read what people have to say about a mod - i don't want to download something that will wreck my game - so i appreciate it when modders allow comments and have seen many modders use the comments to fix errors in their mod.

Mod users should be allowed to have resonable expectations of mod creators - they are afterall the reason sites like PES and ElricM exist

I don't think anyone is suggesting protecting all modders from all criticism and requests; that would be both severely difficult to achieve and the opposite of constructive. Much criticism and certainly questions are healthy for any project's continual growth and success. What has been suggested is that a member/group, wanting to aid the community, are offering to help those modders who are overwhelmed and in need help; filling a need for those few modders who have found the experience more than they bargained for. When someone feels overwhelmed by what feels like constant criticism, their only escape is to leave the community. What Loopy is suggesting, is an alternative to leaving, he's offering to help with a problem. We should support anyone who endeavors to help the community; rather than judge or dismiss the idea as foolhardy and absurd.

I will have you know that my glass armor re-color is completely original with its particular shade of red and that I spent at least ten minutes making it not look just like the tutorial, and I am offended by your sarcastic implication that the 127 people who have downloaded my mod have not been greatly enlightened by my mod's wit and profundity.

Okay but really, that's a very valid point. I think the best thing we can do as a community is further define the line between feedback and trolling or abuse. Anything that expresses an opinion on how well done the mod is without trolling or abuse is, in my opinion, fair feedback. It's okay if you don't like it, it's okay if you find things you think I should fix, it's okay if you have things you would like me to add, it's okay if you think I could have done a particular thing better. But any feedback you leave for any reason other than helping me make my mod a better mod or expressing gratitude for what it is, in my opinion, is trolling. Any any feedback you leave that attacks me, my motivations, or my talents themselves, is abuse.

If you are releasing your mods publicly in a place where they are subject to user feedback, I think you are in practice agreeing to receive fair feedback. And sites can be more clear that this is expected and normal behavior from users, as well as more clear about what constitutes trolling or abuse. I don't spend a lot of time outside of Nexus. They are particularly swift with retribution when it comes to trolling and abuse, but I am unsure of how clear the line is drawn between acceptable comments and not.

Perhaps a simply-explained short paragraph a user has to click "OK" to in order to comment or upload would help. It will not stop anyone who is truly mean-spirited, but really nothing will, short of not allowing feedback or contact at all. Edit: By this I mean every time a person comments or uploads, and not just once when they sign up for a site.

No, it's not. Some modders do not want to have to learn to deal with n00bs. How many times do I have to say that?! So we should force them to!? NO! Let's provide a solution, and let them get back to what they want to do - make great mods.



What a fatalistic attitude. Yes, modders leave, but we are talking about those that leave due to unnecessary flaming that can be avoided.



Yes, but the reason he makes the comment on the forum/download site is that it's immediately accessible. If he has to trawl through screeds of webpages to find an email address for the modder, he probably won't bother.

C'mon....if you're making something for the public, whether it's a Symphony, a Painting or a Mod, there are going to be people who:

A. Just don't like, and give it a low rating.
B. Are jealous that they can't do that, and give it a low rating.

If Frank Zappa, or Stravinsky, or Jackson Pollock quit just because a few people said your stuff sux?

If you put something out for the public be prepared to hear some negative things, if you can't deal with it,
then seriously Stop doing whatever it is your doing.

I remember a few modders even going back to the Morrowind days where you had to "Avert your eyes"
in order to ask them a question about their mod, or let them know you're having a problem with it.

I see people getting treated like crap and abused and added to ignore lists, and receiving smart-ass answers
in a thread in this particular forum because they aren't asking their questions correctly, and it is getting me mad.

yet it seems some modders achieve that status, where they can insult, abuse at will, and will have an entire
group of people defending them for doing it.

It's a two-way street, yea, I'm a modder, do I think I'm God, nope, I make stupid stuff like Cows and make Armor Glow,
will I start treating people like crap? Nope

I've already had someone go around on the nexus giving my stuff a rating of 1, for no other reason than I must have
upset this person somewhere else, (maybe on these boards) either way, he's banned now.

I'm not saying all critiques have to be cupcakes, balloons and squirells, I prefer the ones that say,
"hey I noticed you missed a spot on one of your retextures"

It's up to me whether I take that to heart an "De-Marbelize"

If I can't take ANY criticism AT ALL.....then I have no business being a modder, unfortunately that's real life.

Your Boss isn't going to tell you that you're "Doing a great job" all the time, and neither is anyone else.

If I let someone get me to quit modding, well, then they won, and I've given them what they want, and they're happy now.
The best way to annoy people who HATE your mods, is to keep making them, they're the ones who's blood pressure is through
the roof whenever they see a new mod.

They're the ones who obsess and can't sleep at night until they leave a crappy rating, scathing PM, or scathing email,
they're the ones who are thinking of you all the time, while you happily go on with your life and make even more.

So, TL:DR How about Modders and Mod users treat each other as equals?

It's a statement like this which leads me to suspect you didn't really read my post at all. You have missed the point. See my subsequent post for further clarification.

I read your post.

What I was doing was having an opinion

I never suggested that the type of modders we are referring to cannot handle criticism. You did. What they don't want to deal with is flaming and trolling. They shouldn't have to deal with that. It does happen. If they don't want to have to deal with it, that's their right. My point is this - I believe we can help them to avoid flaming totally. The solution of some posters has been: "Harden up". Not really a solution is it? After all, people are who they are.

You are more than entitled to have an opinion. It's just that you had missed my point.

I got your point, and I'm not going to ruin this thread by wasting several posts arguing about it with you.

I think it's safe to assume ALL modders don't want to deal with flaming and trolling, I'm talking about
modders getting big heads and and abusing the mod users, and I'm also talking about modders
who can't even take a modicum of criticism without freaking out.

This is a brilliant idea. One of the better examples of the community offering support to itself I've seen. I applaud you. Perhaps if there had been such a support mechanism in place, Slof would not have been overwhelmed to the point her health was threatened by the stress.

Some people are simply not equipped to deal with negative criticisms and some of those 'Negative' comments border on or cross the line into cruel and sometimes threatening. If there is even one modder who takes advantage of this and finds some measure of peace then it will be a success.

To those who continue to say 'like it or lump it', or some variation there-of...why? If you have the thickened skin to deal with trolls and flamers everyday without breaking a sweat, I salute you. Yet not everyone is as thick-skinned as you are. It does not make them weak and it certainly does not mean they should be tossed in the ocean to drown while you wave from shore and hold up a 'how to swim' diagram for them.

It's a lack of compassion at the root of the worst of the comments that hurt modders. It should be an excess of compassion from us that helps them find better ways to deal with it. You have my best wishes for this new idea and site Loopy. I think you'll succeed brilliantly.

I really can't think of any modders who frequent this forum having that attitude.
If they do, they don't normally last too long........

It's a great idea but who is going to commit to the huge undertaking such a thing would involve? That would be a 40 hour/week job.

Loopy-

here is a thought ... by protecting people from what might offend them you are actually doing them a disservice. It is almost a disrespect to assume that a person cannot take feedback, critical or otherwise. Let people manage their own lives.

Myself I would NOT like having to go through a gate keeper - what makes the gate keeper any more objective and knowledgeable?

To be such a gatekeeper you'd almost have to know more about the mod than the mod maker to determine what is really info about a problem.

Myself - I think the ratings on tesnexus are lame. Having a rating removed and a rater banned is often ridiculous. I can read a rating and review and see for myself whether the rater was being stupid and petty. I don't need a moderator to tell me that. I've downloaded and loved several mods that were a rating of 5.

As much as it is a giant pile of BS that anyone would get offended by AlienSlof - of what point is it to take a hobby such as this to such an extreme that one's health is at risk? Who takes on such a hobby? I think of a hobby as something that nourishes and supports one's soul. Obsessively creating something personal then being offended when others reject it - and doing it again and again??? why?

You simply cannot please everyone. And in these cases it is the responsibility of the creator of said art to set their own boundaries.

A modder could as easily say that they don't want to provide support, or define what kind of support. AS could have done any number of creative things to prevent taking it to heart. Ultimately though it is his/her own job to manage that.

The healthiest societies are self-regulating ones - not managed ones.

another 2 cents.

Possibly, but maybe not so much. One GateKeeper fielding questions about a single modder's work? If the modder would have to do it anyway, no reason a Gatekeeper couldn't manage in their stead. I'd wager some folks would enjoy the challenge!



I don't think Loopy is suggesting forced mediation. If a modder wants to participate with Loony or others then they are making an informed decision that they would like some help. They are managing their own lives. Why is it such a big deal for this bloke to want to offer his services? If someone wants to take him up on it that's their decision, no one is suggesting this is going to be the new regime of the modding community here folks.

Psymon, you're speaking as if someone will be forced to use a gatekeeper? No one will be making you or any other modder use this service. It's a choice any modder can make for themselves. A personal choice that they are entitled to make if they so wish. So, why such negativity? If you despise the idea, that's fine, don't make use of it. Don't toss mud at the person offering the service though, or worse those who choose to use it. It serves no purpose.

I think this is one of those classic cases where if you don't like it, you have to simply walk away and shake your head. And no one to blame you if you do. I personally think it's a great idea and any modder who is interested in using it shouldn't be made to feel like they have to do so in secret because of what other people think.

Just my 2 cents.

Thank you for your support. I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. Your swimming metaphor is most apt, and funny. I can't believe the lack of empathy on the forum where some have said to basically "harden up". Some modders that have posted on this thread expect others to be just like themselves. Perhaps they need to embrace the fact that some people are different and in this case more sensitive.

There has been a huge outpouring of grief regarding Alienslof's departure, but precious little actual action.

I didn't mean to imply that it would be a forced service.

If Loopy takes on the task of moderating Better Cities feedback then I'd hope that Loopy knows better cities and each update as well as Vorians and Ismelda.

By stating that it is a disrespect - I mean to assume that a person cannot handle basic feedback is a disrespect.

I'm not saying that no one should raise their voice about negative, hurtful feedback either.

But there it is again - what action should be taken?

If this thread proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that modders are precious resources [and I think they are] - then what does that mean? What is to be done then?

No it wouldn't. See the actual thread for this for further clarification: http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=966682

See the thread for this idea for further clarification of the relationship between modder and gatekeeper.

http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=966682

It will be a relationship that needs to be managed but it shouldn't take long to develop an understanding between the two parties.

I mod for myself, THEN I release the mod because there's maybe a couple of other people on the planet who will like it.
(Roughly a little more around 196)

If I start modding for the sole reason of wanting/needing/having a 200 post thread telling me how AWESOME I am for making the mod,
or if I start modding for fame, then I have a problem.
Especially when not everybody is going to think my mod is the next "Sliced Bread", it's at this point where
I will not be able to take ANY......ANY form of criticism.

Come on guys, this thread is getting ridiculous. There is now a thread set up for this and so that one should be used.

This thread is for an entirely different discussion and the line between them is starting to get hazy.

Loopy_Cecil, I applaud you, congrats on the idea.

Thanks. Sorry the thread got hijacked. The original idea was as a result of this thread though.....

What some people seem to be missing is that the act of creating a mod, and the act of releasing a mod are two entirely different things.

In all I have read from Alienslof, nowhere dose she say that she will not mod anymore, only that she will not release any new content, and has pulled her older content. For Alienslof this is a win win solution - she continues to mod, drawing pleasure from the act of creation, and she removes herself from the negativity and hostility that has been assaulting her.

"Assaulting her" like in an abusive relationship. She has chosen to remove herself from the abuse. She is not running away and hiding. She simply made a decision that was in her best interest.

Has she allowed the trolls to win? Not really. The trolls can't win because their fight will never be over; they will point their venom in another direction. Those who lose are the OB community and those who enjoyed her work.

The idea that a modder must be willing to put up with criticism is not valid. No one is required to put up with anything - that's real life. We choose our battles. Sometimes we stand our ground and other times we walk away. Alienslof has decided that this battle isn't worth fighting at the moment - she might be back, and she might not...

There are many others who have made this decision. I am sure there are hundreds, if not thousands of modders who have never released a mod, and whose names are unknown to this forum. They mod the game for the pleasure of it, for themselves or their friends, and they wont ever release because they don't want the BS.

So the idea of a gatekeeper is not without merit. It's not unlike an artist having an agent to deal with the unpleasantness of business. "You want to talk to me? Talk to my agent"

Why does Alienslof punish the rest of the modding community, which clearly supports her and loves her work, by removing her mods from download sites or not making them available for download?

Why did most of the modding community, which clearly supports her and loves her work then not actually rise up to defend her when all the trolling was going on

Sorry but IMHO Slof's decision is her's by right to make - there sometimes comes a time when the hassle you are getting makes things not longer fun and in Slof's case she reached it and decided to do something by removing the opportunity for the trolls ( I was going to put another word here as I believe I've insulted the nice green trolls when I use that reference though I'd probably get a warning) to continue making her life unfun

Let's not turn into a 7fa8 Tragic Chorus here folks. (No, I don't think that we're there yet, but I do think that we've kind of beat it to death. Let's just call "peace, enough" on this one.) (PS: It's the Somewhat Acerbic Modders Dictionary -- don't expect a light touch.)

Well said, sir.

I think you're in a minority - I think most people would be pretty hesitant, realistically, to download a mod that had been given a low rating - which is why I make a point of reporting what I view as unfair ratings (like someone giving something 1/10 because they didn't like the colour).

I think the worst situation I've found myself in as far as that goes - and irritatingly I'm still in that position - was uploading my mods to a site where you could vote on mods without those votes being tied to comments, completely unmoderated, and there was no option to either switch off ratings or to delete your mods. Once they're up there, it is impossible to remove them without contacting the site's administrator and asking them to pull them down - which I'm still arguing with them over - and all the while being stuck with ratings of 4/10 with no comments or justification of any kind for such a low rating, and more than a slight hunch that the vote was given by someone I'd banned from here who thought they'd cleverly (and anonymously!) take a swipe at me by vote-bombing my mods.

The thing about that is that it doesn't help the user, who might actually like the mods if they hadn't been put off by the low rating; it doesn't help me make my mods any better because there's no criticism of any kind - let alone constructive - and it doesn't even help the little oik who downgraded my mod out of spite, because I'll never even know who it was. By this point, of course, I've lost all respect for the community at that particular site, so I'm not remotely interested in anything further they have to say about my mods for good or ill: feedback only means something if you respect who it came from. Even if someone loves your mod, if you don't think very much of them, it's not going to mean a great deal.

Funnily enough, the same mods are also uploaded to a site where comments are allowed and by and large voting is positive and constructive - but then, nobody knows me there so people are actually voting on the mods themselves.

Between those two extremes are the rest of the modding communities across the games, and I manage the feedback for each by using the filters for allowing or disallowing comments at various sites. Normally, I'll enable feedback because it's useful for bug-reporting, and sometimes someone will come up with a really amazing idea that I'll implement if I update the mod at any point. It's easy to tell if I'm soliciting feedback on a mod or not by whether I make a WIP for it. If I make one, I'm genuinely interested in your opinion and suggestions are generally welcome. If I don't make one, it's not that I hate everyone and I'm selfishly denying you the chance to request a given feature, but that I have a very particular aim or idea in mind for this mod and I'm not going to be distracted from that by allowing others to have input into that. Making a WIP implies that to a certain extent the community has a say in what I'm making, and a lot of the time that just isn't the case - I'll just make it and then I'll share it, and if you don't like it there's nothing to stop you changing it yourself - in some cases even changing it and uploading it as a new version. If I stick up a release thread, then I consider it "done", so most of the time I'm just looking for error reports than any sort of input into what needs changing - though if someone says, "If you do an update for this, can you add an extra bedroom?" I'll definitely bear it in mind; just as I'll do the same in return. Modders habitually return to old mods and change them, so it doesn't hurt to pop a request in for a minor addition if you think there's a good chance they'll revisit it.

I think how you phrase requests in threads makes a lot of difference, too. Someone earlier got their head bitten off for saying that a mod was "all wrong" when what they meant was that it didn't fit with their vision on how they wanted their game to look. That's fine, and once it was clarified, they were simply encouraged to open the CS and change things around until it did resemble the mod they wanted, rather than the one that was made.

Ratings don't mean much to me for various reasons.

Say a mod gets the rating the modder wanted (and promoted to get) then abandons the mod. Later bugs are found and the mod has a quest that cannot advance. Ratings high - but have to read the comments for discerning info. I'd prefer just the comments.

Further what was once compatible may now not ever be. Ratings high - mod not usable.

Ratings may be high - but then you see purged posts and unknown criticism were there previously - moderator agreed that info was biased. How about instead of removing the entire post - removing the rating that went with it. Then let the reader decide how biased the comment was.

A half of a year ago saying a mod was 'dirty' (needed cleaning) - some modders took that to heart and worked to ban those that pointed it out ... not understanding what that meant. They would rather not hear what offends them than learn what it means. Now more commonly understood that dirty mods can lead to more ctds - still not acceptable to rate based on that.

What may seem needless comments and ratings now may in the end be the factors that can improve the mod. There may be common practices in modding now that may show to be detrimental and melt you machine - we just haven't seen it. The one who points it out - how dare they. Ban them!!

TESNEXUS though does have filters - so that is good.

To each their own. It is all unknown.

All prophets are true - save that they understand only a little.

I think you are using exceptions to disprove the "rule", so to speak. I appreciate that you are stating your preference, but ratings are useful to the mod users. Often it's the rude or plain dumb way that people phrase feedback that gets the comment banned. They make no effort to be polite and acknowledge the time spent on the mod, even with all its flaws.

Wait then are you saying that those kinds of ratings are the exception, or the rule?

Which is which?

It sounds to me as though you believe/think that most ratings are base and stupid. Are you then using exceptions to prove the rule?

I may agree with you on that, but also think that if that is what your going to get from raters - that is what you going to get. Maybe we should have the rater post their age. Or how about require the rater to submit their thesis on criticism in the arts. I know that I'm being silly - but then what??? I know that I probably have 20 years on most mod users here. My own discernment means more to me than trusting a filter.

I read older posts by a modder I had a lot or respect for - Ulrim. Last year he proposed that modders rate themselves on compatibility and he tried to make a scale that they could impose upon themselves. Roundly denied he was. If I go to TESNEXUS and rate a mod on care (updatedness), compatibility or cleanliness then that would be seen as unfair and beyond the ultra pure world of the just that mod used with vanilla. The likely hood of just one mod beng used is slim, yet if rated in contrast to other mods or with regard to compatibility then the modder can have the rating removed and sometimes the rater banned. I've seen it happen. Dirty and wild edits are less likely tom show with only that mod or a handful of mods, but become a frustrating mess with many mods, yet rating based on that is unfair and biased.

then the whole issue of what overhauls and what 'grand designs' are the more valid ones. Mod may work great with TIE and be a disaster with OOO. So then there are faction biases amongst modders. Ratings then can be unfair for any number of reasons that are completely valid and important concerns of the mod users/raters.

Myself, as a mod-user, have never really found the rating system (on Nexus) that useful. Unless over a hundred people have rated it and it got ~9. That way I know some over/under raters have been averaged out. I usually always go by number of downloads, but if somethings new, its not so useful.

I ignore ratings in any event. It is a flawed system, that is probably beyond fixing. Looking at the number of downloads is probably a more effective means of "rating" a mod....... but, even that can be flawed. So, yes, I look at the number, and how long it has been up. If the mod has content I am interested in, I download it. Regardless of the rating.

I don't rate mods either.

Yep...

meh one of my mods has 2065 downloads and 15 ratings.

One of the problems I think is, if you download from what I call the "Front End" (not the forum)
the "Rate This" link is not very obvious, and actually quite small and VERY VERY easy to miss,
so most people either just download, or download and leave a Comment,
because the Comment link is easy to spot and right out in the open.

It's like, having a lot of ratings will only tell you which mods are popular. Sometimes that equates to "best", sometimes not.

I remember a while back everyone raving about a Morrowind house and me really thinking it was nothing special. I think - and I don't mean to be sexist here - but on the whole men and women look for different things when it comes to houses. This was all about display space and storage, which are really the last things I look for, so I wasn't very impressed.

By that same token, I found an absolute gem that had been all-but-ignored, and wondered why more people weren't raving about it. It didn't seem particularly "niche" in design, but I think popularity becomes self-fulfilling, i.e. if everyone's talking about something, more people take notice. A mod might be ignored simply because everyone else is ignoring it. Oh well, I liked it a lot.

Yeah, it's funny. People are still discovering my companions for the first time. The ratings are good, can't complain about that. Even with Saerileth I didn't receive hate mail here but I did get a few flames on the old BG forums. Whatever. I'm too old to care. I've been through things they can't even imagine. In real life.

Princess-

that is what I mean by finding mods that are rated low that are actually quite good.

A caveat - This applies mostly to tweaks and game fixes, not necessarily quests. The more the mod covers though the more a person should inspect what is under the hood.

If there were consistent categories that a mod could be rated for that then resulted in a final rating ... then I might participate. But that would have to include categories for compatibility, cleanliness, Scope, user friendliness, etc.

as it is now the rating system seems slanted in favor of rating mods ONLY for the mod and it's interactions with vanilla and any mention of the mod interacting with anything else or cleanliness is suspect and could lead to banning and the like. This is what happens when modders mod for ratings and not the game itself. At the worst vanity but often just pride.

Collaboration and pride - not the best combo.

A mod that touches upon everything in the game but the modder wants to hear nothing about compatibility - recipe for flamewars and locked threads and banned accounts.

I'm saying that often it's not the rating so much as the comment supporting the rating. Normally a low rating with a good reason wouldn't be deleted - that's the "rule" I'm referring to. You were talking about scenarios that occur far less often in support of your argument that ratings don't mean much. I contend that they mean a lot more when supported by a valid comment/criticism, which is by far what ACTUALLY occurs.




I never said that in my post, nor did I infer it. Don't put words in my mouth.



Yes, that is silly, and I didn't suggest any type of "qualifying criteria" in my post.



I can't really comment on that as I haven't seen it happen. I can understand though, that some modders would take issue with the expectation that their mod be compatible with XXX mod - especially if they have made that point in the readme. Therefore I could understand them requesting a rating be deleted.



See my reply to the point above.



So it is useful then.



No more or less effective, just a different way. Just because lots of people have downloaded doesn't mean it will suit your playing style. You look for an alternative to the most popular one, you find one that has lots of good ratings and you try that.

I fall on the side of "you can't fully go by the rating system". Modders awareness of a 'clean' mod depends on their awareness of the tool we are using to clean it. Which seems to only recently have become more widely used, and I would dare say, even then, only a small percentage are comfortable with using. Most modders seem to be happy if you are willing to help them with this, through either coaching in how to use, or cleaning it, and offering it back.

Mod compatibility is also a subjective thing. If the mod was created to be compatible, and has errors, that is one thing, but unintentional errors do happen. Eg, Region Revive. Wonderful mod, but the author broke compatibility with OOO unintentionally. He only wanted to avoid some of the dialog options, which in turn tripped over some of OOO's stuff. When asked if it could be revised without breaking the intent of his mod, he was more than happy to point out how to do so. Should he have received bad ratings for it, you can bet he would have, which would be unfair in my opinion, and created an unwarranted rating average that had nothing to do with intent.

In the end, I feel, that at this stage, it is more on the users end to ensure that their unique load order is stable, clean, and compatible. It would also help a great deal for those of us more comfortable with the tools, to go to the modders whose mods we are using and offer our help in these matters. That would encourage the use and understanding of these methods, and cause their usage to become more common. I haven't yet been flamed in the instances where i have posted back, showing the dirty edits, or deleted refs I have found, and asking them to look it over and ensure I wasn't messing their mod up. I have been asked to show them how to do it, and even check it for them afterwards. A win, win in my book.

I think this thread is probably a good place for something I came here to ask about. I was going to start my own thread but I'm not actually a modder myself. And what I was coming to ask to community very likely falls into the category of expecting too much from mod creators.

I like to use a small number of mods. My main one OOO with very slow skill increases so that I can make the game last and be enjoyed for a very long time. My hope is that some of the total conversion mods such as the middle earth based one or the fantasy earth mod actually see completion. But I'm not that much of an optimist.

What a mod like OOO does is gather the good ideas of a lot of people and combine them into a balanced, more difficult, playable and enjoyable experience. When I try to do that with a lot of different mods I suspect I would fail. After all, I haven't programmed in anything more sophisticated than DOS. And I value my free time such that it is much more relaxing for me to play a game than to endlessly rework how to best change it. I wish Oscuro/Sotobrastos were still around, but that is selfish of me as he doubtlessly needs to have and enjoy his own free time, too. I'd pay him to continue updating his mod with the newer ideas of the community if that were permitted by the EULA. But it isn't.

Still, what I find myself wanting is a continuation of the Oblivion experience in a slightly different world with cool graphics and new challenges. That's why I took some time away to play FO 3. Seems Bethesda has listened to the modding community in that this game was quite playable right out of the box whereas for me enjoying Oblivion requires mods.

Let me stop beating around the bush. Is there anyone who like Oscuro/Sotobrastos is combining the new and ongoing contributions of the modding community into a coherent, well-balanced whole? What is FCOM like? Is it internally balanced or is its major accomplishment getting a bunch of amazingly complicated overhaul-style mods to function simultaneously without anything breaking? (I still remember its early threads..."making things go kaboom!") I know it's too much to ask. And I don't feel entitled to it. Not remotely. Though I would donate/pay for it even in violation of the EULA if someone like Oscuro had a donation page on their own website or a P.O. box to send cash to. Hope this doesn't get banned or warned. I'm just trying to honest and "real" here. I know it can't be made yesterday and will likely have bugs until it gets out of beta. But it's what I for one want. I want to be able to enjoy and use the best contributions of the modding community without having to have 40 or 50 mods on my game simultaneously and having to pathetically post my load order in this forum for constructive criticism. And I don't really mean to criticize the people who have to do that to make their games work. It's just that I unreasonably want someone else to figure out all that stuff for me and then put everything in one place with simple (yes I did actually say simple--probably another potentially unreasonable request) instructions for how to download and install some hopefully self-extracting files.

I hope I haven't offended anyone. Many of you have made my Oblivion experience more enjoyable by devoting your creative energies and time to the task of making artwork and gameplay mods. And I don't want to leave without thanking you for it.

I think rating systems should be like waiting periods for firearms. Once you post a comment, you can not give a subsequent rating for three days.
Thus allowing people to actually use the mod and judge it on actual merit. Far fewer people would rate, but the ratings would likely be from people with an honest opinion.
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This would eliminate those ratings which mean absolutly nothing to the mod creator, bogus good and fraudulent bad ratings. The majority that simply wish to troll or ingratiate themselves, do not have the patience or memory spans to come back in three days just to post a frivolous rating.

Then you would get far fewer ratings and that would compromise the quality of the system. Very few will leave a comment and "diarise" for three days in advance to log back in and leave a rating. And you will still get idiotic comments.

Loopy-

I'll give you this - I agree that a lot of raters are immature and shortsighted.

Combine that with an inadequate rating system and you have an unworkable system.

You seem to be of the mind that raters need to be controlled or modulated. I'm trying to convey that the system is broken and hence unusable.

Moderating raters would no doubt please modders who want ratings, but may irk mod users who think it appropriate to rate for compatibility and cleanliness (or whatever).

Fixing the rating system though also seems an appropriate endeavor (but not for me as I still wouldn't give it much mind) what value is there to moderation when the system is broken?

also i put no more words in your mouth than you did in mine - point per point. Let's not prove the old joke that arguing on the internet is like winning the special Olympics huh?

You cannot stop idiots - they outnumber us (well 'us')

I don't agree with that. Very few are immature and shortsighted. Why so cynical? If we operate a system based on the lowest common denominator, no-one would bother with the system in the first place.



Works fine, other than the odd troll/flamer/idiot. Most of the comments I see are encouraging/reasonable/constructive.



They already are. But once again you put words in my mouth. Broken? Who says, other than you?



They don't seem to mind at the moment. You are currently posting on a forum that requires moderation. If you didn't like it you wouldn't be here.



You criticise a lot, but you offer no solutions. As you claim you are a therapist I would have thought you would be great at creating solutions to problems. But I don't agree that it's broken.



Two wrongs make a right, huh? Let me know what I wrongly attributed to you and I will correct it. What's wrong with having a discussion? That's what forums are for......



Agreed. But let's not toss the baby out with the bathwater.......

I have yet to get a low rating from another modder.

From someone who has never made a mod and doesn't know if making the mod was easy or difficult? PLENTY.

Apparently there are people out there that can't "DO" so they think
it qualifies them to be a critic.

And there are also some people out there with the opinion that in order to "Grow" you need to
hear nasty stuff about your work.

Honestly, I don't know what kind of upbringing these people had...

This poster I used to see all the times pretty much sums everything up.

Seeing your discussing ratings I actually got an email from someone once demanding to know why I’d given them a low rating, think it was a 1/10 or something.

In fact I hadn’t rated the mod at all to my knowledge, after reading the description I decided it was something I wouldn’t use, not sure when or how it happened but somehow tabbing and scrolling around I must have rated it.

The strange part of this was a week or so later it prompted me to track down a few mods I always use or ones that I respected a great deal even if I didn’t use them any longer to give credit where it was due and I’m pretty sure it had a big confirmation box on the screen or forced you to comment on the rating, at any rate, the different sites I went to I don’t recall any of them giving the chance to accidentally rate something without some sort of warning or acknowledgement.

Anyway, the whole thing was bizarre and left me leery of all ratings systems which I wasn’t exactly a fan of to begin with.

Heh, that one irks me the most, (I know you didn't do it, I'm talking about other people)

The people who run into a release thread and say "I'm not going to use this mod" and then give it a rating of 1 because they're not going to use it.

HUH?

To me, these are the people who feel their opinion are so important, that instead of just moving on and not using the mod,
the have this Drive to let everyone know they're NOT going to use it.

I don't know who these people think they are impressing, or if they feel "Cool" by going against
the rest of the thread who are drooling over it?

I don't know, but those kind of people are lacking something somewhere.

If I don't like a movie, I don't go to see it, and I don't walk around the Mall telling everyone that I'm not going to see it.

Although I have been modding oblivion since it started, it was the first game I actively modded, so I still consider myself something of a newbie. I got into computers fairly late in life, so although I love the ability to mod and to take part in forums such as this, I think that it is worth remembering that life goes on away from here and that you have to keep a certain degree of perspective.
My first mod in the early heady days, when there were a lot of people playing the game had a huge number of downloads, and a high rating. If a lot of people liked it that was fine, but in technical terms it is a poor relation to what I have done since, purely because a lot of people (including me ) have learned a lot more about how the gaming engine works. Yet any mod that I release now will have a tiny fraction of the downloads that the earlier mods had purely and simply because fewer people are playing now than when the game was released, and that is simply the way things are.

As a result any polls taken now cannot be as statistically significant, because of the fact that less of us are voting.
As an example, I recently downloaded the open better cities mod, which I realise is a combination of a lot of peoples work and the combining of several previous mods. But the end result was far better than anything I have created, yet the ratings and the downloads are lower than those that appear on my earlier mods. It all goes to show how subjective and prone to circumstance the whole thing can be. Also I know for my part, my last released mod is much more sophisticated and consistent than the first, (Helped out by the rest of the UL team), yet the downloads are a fraction of the original. Am I downhearted? Of course not. For me the best part of modding is getting down and dirty with the CS. Ratings can be an added bonus if they are good, downloads have amazed me, I have been a musician for 21 years, in a band that released 6 CDs, yet I am known by more people by my username than will ever have heard of me in real life. Its a funny old word
Because of all of this and may of the things talked about peviously in this thread, ratings must always be taken with a pinch of salt.

The touble with ratings as i'm sure has been said far tooo many times is it is sooooo subjective.

There is no radio buttons to click to show that the features of the mod do what they say they will which can then be totalled to give a rating based more on fact than opinion.

It's irksome if someone gives you a low rating for something that doesn't match their taste - and if you don't know they even tried it in game.

However I believe the OP was trying to make the point.



I think a vote of support should go to those awesome sites that allow for mods to be uploaded to them and who have to deal with all the cyber vandals and flamers who have nothing better to do

Whaaa, Unbeliever, burn him!

Sorry, figured some brevity might help to lighten the mood a bit. I’ll stop now.

Loopy- buddy- calm down

Why so cynical - read my signature.

If you want to create system by which you moderate what feedback is given to the mod maker and then deny you want to moderate mod users/raters - go right ahead. participation will be the telling sign. I could be wrong. I'm ok with that. Wouldn't be the first time.

If all things must be extreme then - well - have fun with that. Most can become all in but a second. All it takes is a certain kind of drive.

I'll try to put no more words in your mouth - feel free to summarize me all you like. Feel free to disagree all you like.

Therapists don't fix things, we don't solve it all (giant misconception) - what any therapist worth his salt will do is help a person find their own solution (which may indeed be different from what the therapist believes). It really is not that spectacular a thing (or it could be the most spectacular thing). It is all relative. Like ratings.

If by the baby/bathwater metaphor you mean that the baby is the mods themselves then yes - let's not throw them out.

[edit] what if as moderator you feel that feedback verges on slight abuse (I mean you seem to read me as a negative person) [edited out extreme statements] but then the rater/user also offers critical info about what is not working - what gets edited?

Has this turned ito a thread about ratings?
Your way off topic here folks............

I just think good moderation is what is needed. Wherever you talk about and put mods up for download. Dont put your mods where you cant get good moderation or control. I do think the moderation here is pretty and and other places. It wont be perfect because people will be people. I do like rating and I do like comments. I really helps to find the good mods and the mod users really do know the good ones. The number of downloads a mod has also helps. I like the top mod lists on PES and TESNexus with my favorite mod site being TESNexus

I have to disagree, as I actually believe it would give the rating system a level of credibility it is sorely in need of.

Few will specifically return to vote, but the votes you do get would still be worth far more than a thousand ratings based on download screen pics. I've had people who weeks later left a vote after realizing that they had not initially done so ( while looking for an update ). I gave their impression and critique of the mod far more weight than others.
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You would still get the idiotic statements, but the kinds of people who make them widely make so many that few would come back in three days to vote.

I'm quite calm. And I'm not your buddy. We have never met. Sounds a little condescending too. Forums are for discussions, which is what we are having. Why do you assume I am becoming angry?



I have. Several times. I still don't get it.



Oh, NOW I understand what you are getting at. Actually we are talking about two different scenarios. The gatekeeper service is for those modders who don't want to deal with the negative stuff, and/or who just want to have more time to mod. The second scenario, which is actually what this topic is about, is regarding public forums/download sites. See the difference?



That was a bit too obscure for me. No idea what you are talking about.



That would be a good start, I do feel free, and once again I do feel free - you probably noticed.



Noted. Thanks for clarifying that. Relative. Yes. Like life.



No I mean lets not sacrifice a decent system because of (relatively) few idiots, or because it's not perfect



I'm not a moderator. Oh you mean for the gatekeeper service? Perhaps you should ask that in the correct forum. I don't view you as the most negative person in the world. I can only respond to what you post.

I have a question about what mod user's should expect from creators that is unrelated to ratings. I recently released a house mod that is actually an adventure game. The game is fixing up the house that turns out to be a lot of fun and the mod has been well received. The problem is a significant number of users want hints, or outright solutions. I get requests in PM's and comments, like one this evening on the RELz topic on this forum. So far, I've answered most of them. A few are so obvious, I've ignored them. For example, someone PM'd me, wanting to know how to wash a rug. Since the mod includes a big pantry you can't miss with bars of soap and a well where you can get buckets of water, I figured the person was not really trying and did not respond to that request.

So, I would like to hear from other modders, especially any who have made quest mods. I think all of us making similar mods try to make the problems hard enough that the player will have a sense of accomplishment on solving them, without making things too difficult. Assuming that it's not a fault in the mod, do you help those that have trouble?

As long as you've stated in the readme that your mod needs a little bit of thought the users should be well aware of what to expect.
There's another couple of mods at least that have caused some dubious comments (Glanvar Castle and Verona House Bloodlines) in the past, although users are well warned before they start the mod that the normal Oblivion practice of the dreaded "green pointy thingy" has been removed.
As always though, use your own discretion in these matters. Just use the spoilers tag when if you feel the urge to answer.

I encountered some similar issues with my Weynon Retreat mod which features a small quest to earn the house. The quest clues have no target markers, forcing the player to follow written clues and use their heads instead. Some gamers, in general not just mod gamers, seem very accustomed to being spoon fed locations or hints and struggle when asked to use reason, logic or even common sense to work it out for themselves. Ultimately, I ended up posting the clues in spoiler tags so that folks would stop PMing me to ask where such and such clue was. Despite posting the clues, I still have folks post comments on PES asking for clue locations, even though the link to the clues is posted on the same downloads page.

I think there are gamers who are just very dependent on that spoon fed gaming style, these are the same blokes who rush to gamefaqs the instant they get stuck on a new game. Trouble with mods though, there aren't dozens of walkthroughs available to find the answers so they come back to the modder. and just like with any game, these same folks will assume it's the mod before recognizing user error.

I haven't made any quest mods, but I've played several. I think the best implemented hints are those that are available, but you don't have to read them. Simyaz, doing RTT, made a manual, and put it in game. Ervvryn, with Ayleid Steps, made a guide with the walkthrough and kept it in a seperate document, apart from the readme. I think these are good examples to follow.

I can understand where you're coming from, I think. Of course you want the player to have a sense of accomplishment, and you want them to appreciate the puzzles you've created. At the end of the day, though, I think some players just don't want to have to think. It's sad, but as far as I can tell, that's just how some players are.

Edited to clarify.

Vince Bly - In my opinion, a mod user can expect a certain level of description of the mod concerning how it "works". If you make a mod that looks like a house mod, but is really a small adventure game, you should explain that a little bit, because not all users are familiar with that kind of gaming. Of course this is something you'll mention as a feature in your readme, but you should maybe also say that the quest part of this mod is based on interaction with objects that are usually not usable in vanilla Oblivion.
If you don't, some people might not even consider that they can "use" the pantry and it's not just decoration.

Generally, it can be very confusing for a mod player. It's sometimes hard to distinguish between features and bugs. If they don't make progress in a quest mod, one reason could be that they haven't looked properly and are simply stuck - but the other reason could be that there's a small quest-breaking bug.

For example, I've played my first quest from bg2408's Integration. It involved a letter that was written in riddles, and you had to find a location. Now, I guessed a little bit and found the location, but I had no idea if that was the way this was meant to be solved, or if I was just lucky. And at that location, I was stuck again - I could have proceeded by using an "item" from a totally different mod, but of course I thought that this was NOT how the mod was meant to be played, and I figured that I hadn't been able to solve the riddle properly, because then I wouldn't have to use "cheats" like that.
Well, to make a long story short: The mod WAS meant to be played like that. It also offered its own "items" to proceed, but there was no obligation to use those instead of the one I already had from that other mod. So, the mod was so cleverly designed (at least I thought it was very neat) that I could really "roleplay" this riddle, even in combination with other mods. Which is something I didn't expect. I didn't trust the mod well enough, and rather expected that I would break the quest if I proceeded like that.

Okay, this is not really something you could request a modder to write into his readme - "this mod is very sophisticated, don't worry, if you are stuck in a quest it's probably not a bug!" But I hope that kind of explains what I mean. And if the uniqueness of a mod can somehow be explained in the readme, then the modder should do so, just so that the players can "react" to the mod in a more appropriate way.
That is something I think is necessary so that the users can enjoy the mod the way it's meant to be played.

edit: About the "quest mod users need to use their head" argument - what I've just wrote is something to consider here as well. You can't always know what the modder was thinking when he made a quest. Did he design it in a narrative, linear way, or does he allow multiple ways? If he adds a fire trap in one of his dungeons, does it kill the player if he doesn't find the water pond early enough, or does he think about characters who have 100% fire resistance?
There is a lot of potential for frustration here both on the modder's and the mod user's end. Sometimes mod users use their heads in a different way than modders expect them to use it.

I think that's worth a separate topic. See How To Give Quest Hints?

Word of mouth from serious gamers who can write proper English is to me infinitely more valuable than hundreds of "gr8 mod, i r8 it 10!".
When every mod is rated 9 or 10 and votes under 8 is considered "ratings abuse" then the whole ratings system is totall FUBAR.

QFT. Couldn't agree with that more.

How about some evidence to substantiate your opinion.

Sure.

Is that it? I've seen that before. I thought it was fair enough. Rater was pretty rude.

He only expressed his opinion. Why have comments and ratings when you are not allowed to express your opinion? Kinda defeats the purpose.

So someone expressing their opinion that Alienslof's mods are "gay" would be OK with you? And you would also agree that we don't need moderators on this forum then....?

Yes, as long as that is their opinion.

Sadly, moderators seem to be needed.
The moderators at these forums do a good job as far as I can tell, while at Nexus you are banned not only for your opinions, but even for presenting facts.

Hey, we're verging precariously on the edge of "cross-site trolling" here. Let's not turn this into a thread about how much you don't like a particular site.

Most sites have rules similar to this site: the only criticism that is welcome is constructive. In the example given, the criticism was not constructive - nor polite, or in fact helpful to anyone. Had that post been made here, the commenter would likely have faced similar action from the moderators. You have no right to express your opinion on a privately-run site like this or any of the hosting sites I'm aware of. You are there solely at the invitation and discretion of the administrators, and your opinion is only welcome so long as it is expressed according to the rules of the host.

You also have to think about your intention when posting your opinion of a mod, for good or ill: how helpful is it to the person reading it? If you say "this mod is ugly" ... I don't care what you think of it, be it my mod or someone else's. I really could not give the slightest fig if you love it or hate it. What matters to me is why you hold that opinion. Does it work as intended? Will it break my game? Is it missing textures? Will it overwrite something I'm intending to use?

That is, and should be, the purpose of giving feedback on mods. It aids the user and aids the modder, and lets me know in advance of using it whether it's something that is going to improve my experience of playing the game.

If you just plain want to tell the world that you don't like a mod because your opinion is just so important that everyone needs to hear it, then start a blog.

Well, fortunately on forums there is usually an expectation that people will be polite when posting their opinions, and not make insensitive and rude comments about something which has been offered freely, and into which someone has poured a lot of their time and creativity.

If that example is all you can come up with, you have very little evidence on which to base your opinion.

EDIT: Sorry Princess I didn't catch your reply before I composed mine. Yours is much better!

Let me tell you, I have tried modding. It is no easy feat to make a mod, let alone a good one. Let me also tell you that I like nothing more to sit back and be lazy when it comes to games. Sure I like to make my own material through the Construction Set, but I'd much rather just download something someone else has made.

I believe that modders are THE number one, hands-down, single-most important asset to Oblivion on the PC. Without the modding community Oblivion would have been dead and buried a LONG time ago. Instead, we hve all you brilliant people here breathing new life into an old game every single day.

I do think that modders are very underappreciated. Part of that is the fact that no amount of appreciation will ever live up to the massive benefit Oblivion sees from mods, nor the massive amount of work that goes into even the smallest of mods. But another part of this is that we -- and I speak of the human race as a whole -- are becoming ever more entangled in a world that promotes ignorance. I think that people download a mod with the mindset that they deserve that mod, that they should be able to expect that mod. Hell, I used to feel the same way.

Until you try to make your own mod, it is impossible to fully respect other mod-makers' work. I think that it should be a requirement that before you can download any mods and install them into your Oblivion game, you first have to dish out a mod of your own. Of course this is unfortunately impossible to do, let alone maintain, but I can vouch for the fact that it would help inspire people to look at other people's mods and value them for the piece of work, or possibly even art, that they truly are.

Fair enough, but why then have a rating system that goes from 1 to 10, if you are not allowed to use it? That's what I don't understand.
And all the "I rate this mod 10" comments are not very helpful either.
In general people are *too* positive in their rating. I have the impression there are more Rating Fairires than Rating Trolls.
Often the release threads are dozens of pages long and more than 90% are "useless" comments that say nothing about *why* the mod deserves it's rating or about any bugs or incompability problems.
Personally I'd like to see *more* critisism, as long it's mostly constructive, and less uncritical praise. Even buggy mods gets uncritical praise.

It's something that is mentioned a lot but there's no easy way to remove the "inflation" so long as there are numerical scores out of 10.

It's even sillier when you get percentage scores in gaming magazines - and just as prone to inflation.

The problem is that each vote has a cumulative effect. An 8/10 score might be very fair, but if that is a lower score than another mod that does roughly the same thing, it implies that the mod is inferior to the other mod. Therefore the ratings just keep going up and up.

When you have tens of thousands of mods to choose between, there's little point in using any mod that isn't "good", so that immediately discounts every mod that is 6/10 or lower. Why would you use a 6/10 mod? Just pick a better one instead. (Of course, and this is the danger, there is only the voting by other people and their comments to go on.)

That means that basically if it's 6 or less it's rubbish - really just not worth taking the trouble to download - reserving the remaining scores for somewhere between 7 and 10.

If 7 is the lowest score that a mod can get and still be worth your bandwidth and taking up space in your Data Files list, then it had better have some pretty unique features because, face it, it's barely passable and probably still not really worth having.

That leaves the 8 and aboves.

A mod that is 8/10 would be good but pretty unremarkable - a solidly-built house in Anvil that isn't particularly special. So you don't really want too many of those, because there are likely to be a lot more mods that are more in line with what you're looking for.

That leaves the 9s and 10s. These are the good mods. A 9/10 mod has some minor errors but is still essentially very good - most mods in my download collection would be 9s - and a 10/10 mod would be statistically flawless - i.e. dependent on scale would have either absolutely nothing wrong with it and be outstanding in design and innovation, or just so huge and ambitious that any errors would just not even be worth the trouble of consideration. It's basically as good as mods get.

If I download a 10/10 mod and find it absolutely riddled with bugs, i.e. you walk into the building and there are flickering statics plainly visible, missing textures from the download, floating trees outside, etc. - then I'm going to feel lied-to by the people rating it so highly.

Yes, ratings fairies annoy me too, especially if I get the feeling they haven't even checked it out properly before voting.

What I used to like - and what sadly they don't do any more - was Morrowind Summit's (now Planet Elder Scrolls) five-tier voting system:

Excellent
Good
Average
Fair
Poor

That was it. Very simple, very easy to understand, and you knew exactly what they meant when they voted it.

Some of the most useful feedback I ever got was on a mod voted "average" in which Quatloos told me in fine detail exactly what was wrong with the mod and how I could put it right. She also said what she did like about the mod, so I could feel confident about including those features in the update. I followed her advice, re-released the mod, and she re-rated it "excellent". That wasn't about being a troll or a fairy, that was about pointing out where something was hanging in mid-air and wouldn't it look better with a few more rugs?

And that is exactly the problem with most ratings systems (especially when you read through a few of the comments and the 10\10 rating is given at the time they are currently downloading (how can you know before you play it through whether it has any problems - there are so many users that just rate based on a quick scan of the readme and recognizing the Name of the Modder that it pretty much biases the rating to begin with)

I feel it would be better for the sites to not allow ratings until a few days after the initial download and only if that member has actually downloaded it ! that way you would at least know that the rater had downloaded and hopefully reviewed the mod and felt strongly enough one way or the other to revisit the site and make the rating which would at least provide some credibility to the rating. (not to mention that it would stop the trolls that are just giving ratings and never even downloading the mod !!)

I also like the suggestion of using a simpler scale as you mention so thst similar performing mods could be rated similarly (along with a possible breakdown of the ratings into a few categories

ie.
- Compatibility with other mods - does the mod cause conflicts with paticular other mods that could be avoided
- Packaging method and completeness of content - Is there a good readme included, are there missing meshes\textures good file structure or does it need some adjustments
- Suitability for stated purpose - does it do the job it states in the readme
- Overall Rating
- etc.

So that rating a mod actually takes a bit of effort on the rater as well as providing some feedback to the maker of where the adjustments are needed for future updates

As well as possibly a system to reset the Ratings or start a new Rating with the update to a new version ( ie something that keeps the ver. 1.0 rating but starts a new ver 2.0 rating when an update is uploaded - so that mods that improve are not haunted by mistakes made on the BETA versions for tings that have been corrected !) which could also give an indication that the mod maker is at lest attempting to improve the mod when needed.

One of my mods has 2056 downloads

it also has 15 ratings., and this is from people able to do ratings while they download.

If you make people have to wait a few days before rating a mod, my rating would go from 15 to 0

I do get irritated when I read "I have given this mod a 10!!! Downloading now.

People should be more honest and say "I have given this SCREENSHOT a 10!!"

One of my mods got a lower rating because of a screenshot I took. Not because anyone downloaded it and tried it.

How many ratings do you see for a mod that doesn't have any screenshots?

Thanks Princess.

If you have a problem with one of moderators or administrators at the Nexus. Please contact Dark0ne and express your concerns directly to him, either by pm on the Nexus or this link (Only he can access it)

http://tesnexus.com/contact.php

Give him the specifics and let him make a determination, no need to air our dirty laundry here.

Or contact me, that choice is yours.

Buddah

I could not agree with you more.
When I got OB last year as a birthday present, I was completely blown away. It was the first game I ever played where I could go anywhere and do anything, not hitting an invisible wall for miles. I was so excited about the clothing and armors, the caves and ruins, the horses, etc. Later, I played Morrowind on a borrowed XBox disc and was equally impressed, in many new ways.
Shortly after my OB beginnings, I found this community, and after making my first post on how to unzip a rar, I was on my way. My goodness I cannot express how much this community has added to my experience. It's amazing to me. Having spent most of my adult life unable to "waste" time, I am glad that my gaming experiences started here.
I try to let the modders know that they are appreciated, because they truly are from my perspective. I don't care how big or small their mod is. And frankly, visiting other communities and forums just makes me appreciate this one all the more, despite the known flaws.
The only thing you said that I can't second is requiring people to mod in order to download. My main reason for that is that most of what I learned how to do, I learned from dissecting other people's mods. By seeing changes in my game, then opening the mods in the CS, I was able to have a comprehensive tutorial at my fingertips.
As far as the ratings thing goes, I agree that the system could use improvement. I like the excellent, average, etc. idea.

The rating system on all sites should be such that you can only rate a mod after you've downloaded that mod. There needs to be some sort of link between the download and the rating system if possible. Rating mods before you even play them is wrong.

First the download then the rating.

The problem with this is that often mod users don't know what should be compatible or what shouldn't, i.e. I have seen users give a rating of "1" because something required OBSE, or low ratings because a mod that puts something outdoors in a city doesn't work with Better Cities. Packaging is also entirely a matter of preference, i.e. I do not understand why anyone would choose manual installations over OBMM or BAIN, nevertheless people do it, and nevertheless many modders don't offer omods or omod-ready archives even for big packages. That really only leaves "does it do what it says it does", and is that even really scalable? To me that's pass or fail, not 1-10.

I mean, these ideas are great in theory, don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a system that tells me specifically how much work it will be to use something, whether or not it seems like real effort was put into it, and things like that - that same system would also reward me as a modder for going the extra mile whenever I see the opportunity. But you are not accounting for the RTFM candidates, the hateful 12-year-olds/12-year-old-minded adults, the helpless damsels, or the ignorant but innocent casual player. Unless you make them pass tests or provide community references before giving them rating privileges, they will always be there, and it will continue to be up to the individuals in the community to subjectively evaluate the significance of their input.

You're quite right, and thank you for posting the contact details. This is the contact page for Planet Elder Scrolls.

If there had been any misunderstanding about my previous post, I was expressing a preference for PES's old system in preference to their new system, though I concede that the 10-based scale is used virtually universally.

There's a couple of things on this thread which have irked me. One is a poster who insinuated that all opinions were valid, but also criticised people for the ratings they give mods.....isn't that their opinion? The other is some posters who put the boot into the 10-point rating system without actually suggesting an alternative themselves. Pretty pointless really. Thankfully, people have started sharing ideas. The problem could be not so much the system, but the people who use it. But then again, I guess they're part of the system......

To be honest, we shouldn't get into criticising other members in this thread - it's really not helping.

The one benefit of this thread is at least that people are calmly discussing solutions to perceived problems, and there are a number of ideas being put forward. Let's not force this thread to a premature lock by turning it back into arguments against the person.

I assume this stab was directed at me. I didn't criticise people, but the system.

I'm from the house that thinks the rating system causes more harm than good. I have rated a file maybe 2 or 3 times in all the years I've been downloading mods. I pay no attention to other's ratings of a mod.

I read the comments. I post comments. A twenty word comment says alot more than "8" or "10" does. Plus, people who take the time to actually post a comment are alot more reliable than the dolt that is only capable of selecting numbers from a drop down box.

You are right. The rules of the forum prohibit posters from criticising other members, so I apologise. However, where there is an obvious double-standard contained in a post, people will point that out.

Mod users can expect too much from modders, but frankly, sometimes that goes the other way around... and if there isn't enough feedback of positive nature, the whole rating thing can get to you. You could read this thread, which I posted yesterday. It's locked for all the right reasons, so if you want to post further comments on it, I'll read them here.

Thanks Sage, it actually helped me in another part of RL to acknowledge a situation I found myself in through my own naievity/innocence in RL. (Believe me, the Academy Awards and Golden Globes have alot to answer for as do other things in RL in comparison.) The important thing for us all, '...is not to lose our perspective.'

I think a logical progression for this thread, would be to suggest for new ways to improve the rating system, if that be so permitted.

Why, because, I learnt a while ago it is all well and good to have a problem, and raise that issuie amongst a group, but it takes effort to provide a solution and present it for discussion.

I'm right with Princess Stomper on the tangent of the excellent, good etc rating system.

And I would like to also propose another system for the hosting websites; to provide a feedback from (similar to LHammonds readme generator) where through predefined sections, the user is able to briefly outline any problems they had with the mod, which would allow the Modder to obtain valuable feedback, and should be able to be allowed or not by the uploader as is the current rating system, with subjects like Textures/meshes etc... where there is a character limit for each section. I.e, Meshes: found missing meshes playing your mod. I mean, the amount of people who will take the time to fill out the feedback form aren't likely to be the negative type as they won't waste their time, and it could be automatically activated via the website that if a rating is below 'Good' - Eg, a System with five teirs like Excellent, Good, Average, Fair or Poor. User downloads, comes back later rates a Fair or a Poor. Upon confirming such a rating, the mod user must justify via the online feedback from what was poor about the mod (even a bullet point like a questionaire or similar) before the rating gets posted, this way, allowing a legitimate reason for the poor rating.

My feedback is based on this. In RL, in my Industry (which is frequently advertised in the form of the likes of Hell's Kitchen or other Celebrity Chef programmes), I subject others as I have been subjected to criticism via their own submissions and we must always justify ourselves to the person for a praticular rating we give them for their particular entry. However, modding is not a competition. I have enough of that in my RL thanks and all the material and immaterial kudos that goes with it.

My hope is that we can continue this thread with a discussion into the benefits of changing the rating system for a better one that is more accurate (I think the voting system on Nexus is fine - Mod of the Month, good idea, but more emphasis needs to be placed on this for it to be effective imho)

"Perspective, use it or lose it." (I personally luv this quote)

Coors916

IMO, a good mod rating system would incorporate something more like slashdot -- where rating get rated. Also there would need to be a bit more protection against people doing what Sage Rime did. Which would all be a fair amount of work. OTOH, it would make a nice addition to TesNexus. And the software for Slashdot is readily available.

Edit: Links to slashdot itself:
* Slashdot: Games
* Slashdot: Believable Stupidity

If you'll poke through the site, you'll see how comments get rated and labeled. Also you can filter the comments you see (i.e. ignore all comments with a rating f 3 or lower).

Interesting chat about rating and one that is quite topical for me atm.

Funnily enough in the UK thic months GamesTM magazine (a multiple award winning multi platform gaming magazine) has a feature artical about rating systems in game the pressures of systems like Metacritic etc.
They suggest that it may serve the Gaming press well in the future to go down the route that the other media (Film and music ) review magazines have gone in having instead of a 10 point/percentile system the 5 start system where 3 stars is average which avoids issues where you have ratings like 5 or 6 where one reviewer reviews an average game and gives a 5 and a different reviewer has exactly the same view and rates it a 6

Having this sort of system would imho then increase the incentive to give a back up argument

I think a big reason for excessive expectations is that the mod descriptions on a forum fire the imagination a bit. As you read an exciting mod description, you start to develop an impression of how you expect the mod is going to work. Obviously actually modding the game, tweaking scripts and graphics, is much different than exciting adjectives.

It's the same thing with getting into game previews too deep before you play the actual game.

Rating ranting madness

Let me introduce you to two of my friends - reliability and validity. When it comes to judging rating systems, both play a major role.

Let's begin with reliability. Reliability could be described as "repeatability". Let's say you've got a thermometer and put it into a 50° water, and it shows you 50°. You clean it, test it again - again it shows 50°, that's great! Why is it great? Because it could have also shown 47° first, 52° at second try.
Let's say you've got two thermometers, and make the test with both. Both show 50°. Great! That's reliability!
Now if only one wouldn't be for Celsius, the other for Fahrenheit. Seems like one is broken .

There are several kinds of reliability. Reliability is the exactness of measurement. The important aspects in our discussed ratings at hand are in subject (one thermometer at different occassions) and between subject (comparability of different measures).

Why are they important? As for the in subject reliability, without it you've got an error in measurement concerning consistency of ratings. Which is you rate something sometimes as 8, and another times at 9. Even trained raters can only achieve a consistency of 0.9 at most on a nine point scale. Most people? Let's say using at best a seven point scale is recommended.
As for the between subject reliability, without it you can't compare the outputs. That's like when for one a 6/10 is an above average rating, and for another a 7/10 is a below average rating.

Reliability is a pure technical aspect: The lower the reliability, the higher the error in measurement. Nevertheless it should be pointed out that reliability needs the ability to measure. Sounds obvious? Well, from a pure mathematical position a broken thermometer which's scale is fixed at 57° will be 100% in subject reliable, but it can't show the differences between cold and hot water.

Is a high reliability enough? Well, it's nice if your thermometer always shows the same temperature when put into water. It's not so nice if if's measuring air pressure. Validty is first and foremost the question if the measurement measures what it ought to measure. Intertwined with this is the question to which extends the results can be generalized.

Reliability is necessary but not sufficient for validity. Mathematically validity can't be higher than the root of reliability, because the lower the reliability, the higher the error. On the other hand something can be as reliable as possible - if it measures not what you want to measure, it's no good.

Validity also equals comparability. If things are valid and about the same area, they can be compared - altough for completeness' sake it should be mentioned that they often need to be transformed onto the same scale (e.g. you can compare the results of thermometers made for °C and °F, you only need to know how to calculate degrees of one into the other. The thermometers mentioned above, both showing 50° in the same water now are not reliable, because one of them would have to show an entirely different degree).

Now that you know my two friends, let's take a look at the actual ratings mostly used in our context:
- At first look it seems that by using a scale of 1 to 10 we're already having a too wide range, diminishing in subject reliability.
- Second look shows that only a two to three point system is effectively used: 10 and 9. Eight and lower nowadays usually gets deleted and the rater banned.
=> Unfortunately this creates another issue, that of a ceiling effect. It's like using thermometers made for °K to measure water temperature, when the thermometer only goes up to 200°K. Whatever water you try to get the temperature (if it's 5°C or 95°C doesn't matter), the thermometer will always show 200°K. While a too high number of choices create issues, the lack to differentiate does, too!

Alright, so reliability is out of the window. And with it validity.

But is it? If you take a closer look, then no, the current currently often used system has a value. Just not what you've expecting:
- The nominal ratings are useless, the numbers meaningless. This is not only caused by the limited range, but also because the people rating use wildly different ideas. One rates a mod a 10 because the preview screenshots look nice, the other because he's played the mod throughoutly and enjoyed it, thinks it's the best mod of all times. And the third because the mod has no major technical flaw and doesn't intent to rate the mod content at all. You've got neither in subject nor between subject reliability, therefore the validity of the nominal rating is nil.
- what is reliable though is the number of ratings. Not how they rate, but that they rate. See, the popular mod sites are quite good at keeping tracks of the number of votes, and through eliminating everything that's below 8 they usually even have about the same meaning.

Now what meaning does the number of ratings have? Question of validity here. The answer is, in short, popularity. Yet there is a correlation between mod quality and popularity. While this correlation is nowhere near perfect, if you look through several mods at *most popular download location* you'll notice that while Mod A might have a rating of 10, and Mod B a rating of 9,71. Mod A has eleven votes, Mod B eightthousand. Which mod is likely better? You know the answer.

Of course validity is diminished by the fact that several mods are simply better advertised than others. Here another factor can be used: Number of votes versus number of downloads in light of the time the mod is available. While the result is certainly also far from being optimal, it can be used as a good hint of how good a mod is.

That's what the current system offers.


Needsless to say I find the current system horribly broken and refuse to take part in it. Why? Not because of statistical reasons, although getting some validity out of it requires some unconventional thinking. Ethical reasons play the major role. Currently people are forced to vote good, or risk their account. I've seen people getting banned for pointing out that a mod includes "recompile all" garbage, and for pointing out other existing major issues. Now on the one hand while I'm pretty confident that my mods don't have major issues, I'm happy when they're pointed out so I can fix them. I don't want to see people punished for it. And I know that my mods have some controversial aspects. If someone doesn't like them, should he be punished? Of course not. Unfortunately the current system widely used is likely to result in both.

(Excursus: Of course there's another issue, which is legitimate versus not legitimate complains. I too tend to react annoyed to not legitimate complains, like those people whining about LAME's spell sorting. Legitimate complains are a whole different matter, though, and I believe that the action taken against non legitimate complains also damaged the possibilities to even mention legitimate complains greatly.

The moderators in this forum have so far in my perception shown a far superior handling in differentiating between legitimate and non legitimate complains. Yet it has to be pointed out that they don't need to deal with a heavily distorted rating system on top of written messages.)

Are more valid rating systems possible? I don't think anything will change anywhere, but yes, I do see two possible solutions:
First is to replace the rating system with a "mod kudos" system. In effect it would work like the current system (in which only top notes can be effectively used), except without the hypocrisis and the danger of someone accidently downrating a mod by giving it a 8/10. Top lists then would be generated by the numbers of kudos in time X.
A second solution with actual ratings is also possible, which can remove the statistical problems currently created by the ceiling effect (through use of statistical methods outside of averages). Unfortunately I don't see any possibility for it to come into reality. Every rating system worth it's name needs to differentiate between mods, and I don't see any chance for a nondistorted rating system today. A nondistorted and therefore valid rating system requires that the full spectrum can be used and is used. I don't see this happening at all.

So yeah, if you ask me, some major mod sites should switch to a mod kudos system instead of continuing using the current methods, which are (when it comes to their intents) completely broken and effectively working as kudos system either way.

I once got a rating of 9 instead of 10 because of the screenshot I took for one of my mods.

So some people aren't even using the rating system correctly.

I like it when I see people leaving a comment that includes "Will be back later to rate"
because they are the ones who are rating fairly, because they are actually USING the mod,
and not rating by a screenshot.

We've all seen thos types of rating too. "Looks AWESOME!!! I give this a 10!"

Yet another screenshot vote.
and the same with 1 and 2 votes, "This looks lame I give it a 1"

People, stop voting for the screenshots!!!!!

P.S. Actually I think I'll add this reminder with any new release, but then that will make me run into the TL;DR crowd

I just had a look at this link, quite cool. The creators have even tested it for exploits and abuse. Wish they had an example of the system in action on a site somewhere. Btw, most of th information went over my head as I'm not a C++ or anything + software expert, lol.

Wyre or anyone reading this thread, are there sites you know of where they have implemented this system?

Coors916

Yep - the mod with the 8000 votes. But you don't need a ratings system for this at all; that number of votes probably means it's been downloaded around 1.3 million times (or more - statistically, 3 million is more likely), while 11 votes could mean anything from 11 to 1000 downloads, or something like that.

There's even more validity to taking the download number instead of the ratings number. While a very high number of ratings will always win against a very low number of ratings, it gets a lot more blurry with average numbers of ratings. Average, to me, is about 20 ratings, but the number is not that important. What's important is that there are mods that have been downloaded by over thousand people, but have been rated only 20 times. And there are mods that have 20 ratings, but have been downloaded by only 40 people.
I can only guess why this is happening. The one with the low download number, but average rating number, could have been advertised mainly in a small forum, where the modder is a respected member. Just to give an example.

In any case, if we use ratings that way, we can just get rid of them. We could put just as well put a calculated number there, which takes number of downloads, number of views and the time since first release into account.


edit: Funny how this thread never stays on topic, but rather focuses on a completely new topic

edit2: Small fun facts: Midas Magic is number 1 of the TESNexus Top 100. Deadly Reflex is number 6.
Download numbers: Midas Magic 332874, Deadly Reflex 436604. Deadly Reflex seems more popular, but lets not be too hasty.
Views/Downloads ratio: Midas Magic 2.09, Deadly Reflex 2.21. Pretty equal, but Midas Magic is slightly better...
Highest download number of ONE file available on the download page: Midas Magic 58180, Deadly Reflex 74500. And it should be noted that this one file is some old version for Midas Magic, but the latest version for Deadly Reflex.

Going by these numbers, it would seem that Midas Magic isn't as popular as Deadly Reflex.

What I notice is that ratings tend to be not just tens but ones or tens. This brings me to another factor that I believe influences ratings.

It's my experience that many gamers tend to think in pretty rigid black-and-white, either/or categories. When many people comment on mods they often tend to say only "It sucks!" or "It's wonderful!". When they rate they tend to give a mod either a 1 or a 10. They tend not to see nuances, nor are they able to express nuances very well. They make snap judgments and often tend to express opinions as though they were facts. They are able to comprehend ones and tens perfectly well; they are less able to navigate the no-man's-land that lies in between ones and tens.

(Before anybody jumps on me for this - either/or thinking is not unique to gamers. A lot of people everywhere react to life in less-than-subtle ways. But it seems to me especially prevalent among gamers.)

So it's my belief that most people will mainly use the polar extremes of any ratings system, no matter how you configure that system.

Actually there are more possible explanations. Keep in mind that you can't give extremely good or perfect votes, therefore if you download a bad mod, the only way to show your opinion about it is to not vote.

I remember a discussion about a certain Morrowind mod (from the whe-who-must-not-be-named of times past) claiming for a mod that it's the "most downloaded Morrowind mod". Usual reaction to this is "and how many have played it?", due to the mod's discussionable quality.

As for the part you've quoted, it was just there to show that the numerical number is meaningless .

Numbers are too abstract, perhaps?
A simple Poor - Below Average - Average - Good - Fantastic system would be better, or an even "nicer" system of "Needs more work" - "Not too bad" - "Nice mod" - "Great mod" - "Masterpiece".

A better way would be to explain WHY something is rated one way or the other by rationalising the reason. "Its crap" says nothing except that the writer couldnt be bothered to help the modder by saying what is wrong and how it can be improved.

The majority of players seem to be very sensible folk. I play and a sometimes critique others mods but I try to explain where and how something is going wrong. I try to offer help if I can.

I would say however that some people are like grown up birds in a nest still with their mouths open for mummy to come and feed. They chirp when food doesnt arrive or when it tastes bad, smack their lips when its nice, but really they are perfectly able to fly out and feed themselves or help mummy get the worms. They are the ones that irritate. Its a small minority and I couldnt name names even if I was asked to because I wouldnt want to and cant think of any examples anyway, theyve been that few and far between.

To be honest I find that everyone who criticises my work and, well a lot of others work, either positive or negative has been very polite and helpful. I would prefer explanative negative criticism rather than none at all.

When a modder sees hundreds if not thousands of hits on their modding thread but they seem to be by and large the only person posting on it, thats the worst feeling. Personally speaking. I'd rather be told than ignored.

I completely agree.



It might help a bit, but the sad thing is that this still wouldn't really solve the problem. Ratings and reviews can be helpful, hurtful, or both, yet they rarely give a completely accurate picture of what's going on.

This isn't just a problem faced by mod hosting sites, either. The problem is the same on any site that allows ratings of any kind. It might be worth examining a few of these for ideas.

Amazon, Ebay, and Newegg are the most prominent examples that come to mind. Ebay's rating system is horribly flawed. Newegg seems pretty good on the surface until you find out that most negative reviews that get posted never actually show up. Amazon's system seems better than most because they sort the actual reviews based on how many people found the review helpful, which helps to de-emphasize the reviews that just say "This is trash!" or "This rocks!"

Newegg and Amazon use a five star system, but they also show a clear summary of how many people gave each grade, so you can clearly see how many people gave a good rating versus how many gave a poor or average rating. This way if you see something with an average rating you can dig down to see if most people really thought it was average or if most thought it was great and only a few thought it was terrible. Pretty easy to discount the negative views in a case like this without resorting to censorship.

Simpler rating scales don't always mean better either: Ebay's positive/neutral/negative system is deeply flawed, but you'd likely never know this unless you both shop and sell stuff a lot on Ebay. Newegg has a nice feature that lets you know when the reviewer actually purchased the product from Newegg or not. This helps to give some extra credibility to those who did. They also break down each review into pros/cons/other, which pushes people to think a bit more when posting a review. However, Newegg won't accept reviews at all when you get a product that simply didn't work -- this is probably done to avoid reviews from idiots who just didn't install something correctly, but it also means you have no way of knowing how many were actually DOA (I had one of these recently and my review wasn't allowed).

Even with the much more advanced rating systems like Newegg and Amazon have, there is a confusing amount of variation in overall ratings. Just take a look at the ratings for Oblivion itself. They're all over the place. Some editions have much lower ratings than others. Shivering Isles is rated worse than the original game, when IMO it is far better. One great example of this dichotomy stands out to me -- The PS3 edition of Oblivion GOTY got lower marks than the others. Why? Listen to some of these comments:



Eh? A good game gets 2 stars? Maybe the "bloodgrass glitch" was something only PS3 users had trouble with?



Yeah, character leveling is one of the worst flaws in the game, but only 1 star? Please ...



LOL! No comment needed.

I rest my case.

Slashdot itself (site came first, then they released the code, kind of like Wikipedia and Mediawiki). I've edited to add the links, but here they are again:
* Slashdot: Games
* Slashdot: Believable Stupidity

If you'll poke through the site, you'll see how comments get rated and labeled. Also you can filter the comments you see (i.e. ignore all comments with a rating f 3 or lower).

At this point, I think ratings should be done away with altogether. No one guarantee that some nozzle wont come along and abuse the system, so don't give them the opportunity. Comments only. I know we can disable the ratings on our mods but I sometimes think that looks bad for the mod as players are drawn to the 10's and such.

If a player goes to a site without a rating system, then they wont be swayed to bypass a mod that has the ratings turned off. Just my opinion.

I actually quite agree with that comment and...perhaps even the rating itself. I suspect the person (I swear, it's not me!) probably wanted to elaborate more on the flaws of the game....poorly conceived quests, lack of NPC diversity, uniqueness and personality, and other things that usually make for compelling CRPGs for me. Mostly, having played so many CRPGs, sometimes one starts to develop a higher standard that, quite frankly, no CRPGs can ever fully fullfill given the current day trends in the game development industry. To summarize it all, if it were not for the fantastic modding community, I probably would not have bothered to finish Oblivion, let along replay it so many times. I guess I am one of those odd people who have a really dim view of vanilla Oblivion....

You're not alone.
Vanilla Oblivion is too much aimed at the console kiddies, but it *is* one of very few (Morrowind being the other one) single player CRPGs where you can both role play, wander freely and not have to look at the back side of your own head when walking. Gothic.

So I'm very grateful for the tools provided by Bethesda and to the modders who have used them to create the best single character game ever.

I liked Gothic 3, in the sense that it at least had a more robust faction system, more unique and some interesting NPCS, as well as a hmm...less hokey main plot than Oblivion. You are right that it was harder in Gothic to wander freely, especially once one allies oneself with a faction--and you couldn't do anything without/that didn't end up aligning yourself with a faction. The game engine, however, was just downright horrid. Whereas combat in TES got better from Morrowind to Oblivion, with Gothic it was the complete reverse.

Thanks Wyre! That was a great read, and insightful too.

Coors916

Yes, and a very good example of discussion between people respecting each other too.
One would have hard time to find spiteful offensive remarks and street language in their tread.
Why is it people around must turn everything personal and make as offensive post as possible?

for ratings I don´t care that much, if there is reported issues with mods I may take that into consideration,that depends if I think it is some valid points, and download what I like.
So I guess comments are more good than bad, have rated one mod poorly once, the readme and reality was too diversed to put it gentle

On the other hand there is clearly some superstars in both morrowind and oblivion communitys that obviosly have done great things but you can´t say anything that can be remotely taken as criticism, and then a poor thing get burned from the superstar while cheering on by the followers who in awe bows in the dust

Are one legit thing to name the attacks on slof as trolling, but soon everything other than praises of the modders awesomeness gets labeled as trolling and trolls by the high priests and priestess of the community, even some got made banners for that purpose, reminds too much of the witch hunts of the past.

So I guess I carry on and download what I like, praise where I genuine can stand for that,and keep my mouth shut otherwise

Nice! This ties back to the point I was making about Amazon and why its reviews are pretty useful: the reviews themselves can be rated and the best ones sort to the top of the list.




So, you'd give vanilla Oblivion the same rating as, say, Charlies Angels, Ninjabread Man, Elf Bowling, or Aquaman? Check here for more bad game examples.

This is yet another great example of the problem: even otherwise perfectly rational people often make utterly irrational statements when asked their opinion about something.





Hopefully the number of "superstars" who behave that way will continue to be a rare problem in an otherwise generally well-behaved community.

No, I don't think vanilla Oblivion is a poor game, only average. Why spend time on an average game when you can spend time on great games?
My favourite games, which I keep returning to, are those with a good modding community, like MW/Oblivon, the Thief Games and the Age of Wonders games.

If slashdot is looking more civilized, then it's precisely because of the rating system. It basically acts as a system which immediately removes graffiti from the walls, and because it's quite good, graffiti "artists" quit doing their thing so much and leave. Which makes the community more attractive. And more than that, it tends to reward and promote high quality posts.

But it's a virtuous circle type thing. It works so long as there are enough folks around to make the effort to jump start the circle and then keep it going.

Well...yeah, sort of. Bear with me for a moment. Charlies' Angels and a ton of film-inspired games that coordinate their release date with the release of the films....most of the time, we know those games suck even without playing them. They are not even "real games", they are more like "part of the movie franchaise" that could never sell themselves and needs the films they are attached to (exceptions are "Knights of the Old Republic"). The other games are cheap productions that you'd expect to suck (most of the time). If they were actually good, we'd start calling them "gems" or "underdog games." Oblivion is more ambitious, and it would naturally be as a sequel to Morrowind (which I actually didn't like, and never bothered to finish). But Oblivion just feels like a game engine without much substance or a soul. It's like they released the CS so the modding community could finish the game for them. My motivation for saying that vanilla Oblivion is a "bad game" is that they had much more resources and capital to develop this project than the other crappy games that were deservedly rated "1." Well, now I am just repeating one of the common criticism about Oblivion....

But honestly, I probably wouldn't rate Oblivion as a "1." In all honesty, it's more like--as PO said--an "average" game but one that, IMO, did not deserve the rave reviews on all the game review websites. So yeah, I guess you are right...

No, your not.
If I couldn't have modded the game extensively to get away from the abysmally flawed leveling and scaling systems in particular I sure wouldn't have been playing for three years.
I just don't know how console players persevere.
Then again, if that's the gaming system that your used too I don't suppose the use of mods even crosses your mind.

Just a pet peeve of my own: I really get annoyed when a mod is described as "an alternative to X for those who don't like X", and someone rates it poorly because it's incompatible with X!

Duh!

I like this system, Amazon uses something like that in their Discussion forums, more along the lines of "Do you think this post adds to the discussion?" Yes|No

Well, if the post gets enough "No's" the post is faded and minimized, and you also get to see a "12 or 15 people found this post helpful" stat next to it.

One question though, (although I might be missing something)

What's to stop someone from going around and downrating the posts themselves?

Example: "Miscreant A" decides he hates everybody who voted 10 for a mod, so he goes and gives everybody who posted 10 a 1 on their posts
Or does it work that way?

Haha you say your seeing cliques develop and whatnot but all your doing is creating one of your own to protect your obviously sensitive egos. Pretty funny lol. Your going to have criticism no matter what, do you think Todd Howard has a little cry everytime someone says boo about his game? No they don't because you need to accept that. Everyone who bought Oblivion has a say in it. We spent money and time on it.

Your argument is that well people have no say because your doing this as a hobby and that they should not be demanding blah blah blah. Well guess what if they download your dam mod, spend some time on it and then say hey, wtf, this is buggy as hell, or if they really hate it, they have a say too. I think it goes both ways, yes people should perhaps be less demanding, its not like your professionals or have a large team to work with like bethesda does, but at the same time you all need to grow a pair, and stop whining and making threads about this crap because its GONNA happen no matter what you do. If your so insecure maybe you SHOULD stop making mods alltogether, because while you may not wanna hear ppl whining about what is or isnt in your mod, w b0d8 e dont wanna hear you whining about it either.

Thats just my opinion.

Firstly, your posting reminds me of another troll...wish I could put a name to it.

Secondly, your comparison between modders and developers is invalid. Mod users do not pay for mods; modders don't get paid for their work. Mod users have nothing at all in stake with a mod, other than optional time invested. Gamers at least have invested their money.

Honestly, anyone who decides to release something to the public already has "a pair". They're sharing a bit of themselves with us, and that is worthy of everyone's respect.

Nice one though, come again soon!

Wow, this thread went right over your head, didn't it.

Suggest you actually read through this thread and the previous one and you will realize that you are totally wrong on all counts and utterly missed what is being said here.

It is rude comments like yours that drive people away. Such rudeness is totally uncalled for. On the other hand, you have just aptly demonstrated the crap that so many modders have to put up with from rude people and you have in fact demonstrated a real need for this thread, contrary to your opinion on it's existence.

On another note, people seem to see things as two opposite ends of a pendulum swing. Some are saying that putting the ban hammer on rude comments means that modders will only receive praise, the opposite end of the pendulum swing. This is not the case. There is a happy medium where modders can receive praise and constructive criticism without insults. It is not too much to ask and it does not mean that modders will be 'molly coddled' or unable to handle the slightest criticism. It is simply removal of the totally unwarranted insults.

To those who say 'grow a thicker skin', it seems to me that is just an excuse for the abuse. Putting the blame on the victim and almost condoning the abuse. No one anywhere should have to put up with abuse.

I don't know the details, but I believe that their are workarounds for that. You'll need to dig through the software notes and discussion -- I'm sure that they'll have VERY extensive comments on this sort of thing. Check the slash software site that I first linked to.

What they don't know about, wont bother them. I was not even a member here when OB came out heh so I had no clue about mods. I didn't know MW had mods either.

Well said!

Crazy a thread like this should even be made. Anyone who uses mods and are either disappointed or demand more than they get probably should not have used the mod(s) in the first place. I would like to thank each and every mod maker for the superb work they do to secure Oblivion at the #1 game to play spot.

It's been a long time since I returned to these forums I always come back to Oblivion and search the forum and find new mods to try out. The only reason I play Oblivion is to see just what you, the modders, do to the game and the result is as follows:

Oblivion is the best £30 I've ever spent.

Well said.

Now could someone find me a monument to a critic?

There arent any and no-one remembers the name of any of the audience from the Roman Arena, but a lot of Gladiators are recorded by name and applauded. I am sure some of the audience clapped really hard and some shouted boo. But no names, no memories. A legend in their own bath time.
The only critic anyone should ever trust is themselves.

Just had an angry response to my own mod. It didnt annoy, it made me laugh though. Can you believe that some yum yum actually contacted me to tell me that the Mesogea Mod (the whole point of it was to provide a fictional earth pre-classical period history, emphasis on FANTASY) was not historically accurate. Moreover, accused of shoving an historically incorrect mod "down someones throat". Odd, I wasnt anywhere near the guy and I didnt hear anyone gagging. Maybe the Middle Earthers will be next, you heretics!

Is this how it begins?



Anyway, one daft comment out 1300 doesnt make much odds.

I'd tend to agree on that one, except... If I start applying that to myself, I'll go dipressed very quickly :s

All artists and mod creators are artists I think have to deal with the public and critics. I think all of them have to go through what you guys and gals are going through here. This doesnt make it right but that is the sad reality. In the old days of stage they used to throw rotten vegetable and fruit at the performers and many of the artists considered to be great now were unappreciated and mocked in their time.

Thanks for all you do

I dunno, I dont really get off on thanks and applause. I'd be a liar if I said it didnt make me happy to see some positive comments and the negative ones do help (as long as they're not just plain daft). Good point about the self criticism, I agree with you there.

Having veg and fruit thrown would be helpful, I could put it in some of the market stalls and barrels throughout mesogea to save me time.
Actually I have made an amphitheatre and the intention is to have players on stage. Throwing fruit and veg, now theres a thought...

I'm not even 25% done reading the first thread, but all I can say is... this is ugly.

At this point I'm already disappointed in several people whom I consider friends.

I'd like to see Princess_Stomper replace my contributions to the Wiki. That attempt would be laughable.

EDIT: To be clear: PS is not the only, or perhaps even the single greatest, source of disappointment for me in that thread. I only singled her out because... well, because I am closest to her, I guess.

EDIT2: Actually, what bothers me the most is the polarization. Because I don't completely disagree with anyone, or completely agree with anyone, but yet the thread seems very cleanly divided between two groups.

EDIT3: Well, at least one very good thing came out of this, so far - I love this quote:


EDIT4: OK, well... the thread ended better than it started. I now see that I misunderstood PS... somewhat. I have a lot to think on now.

EDIT5: Jesus, there's another 190 posts of this to read... Maaaannnnz.

As you are one of the very few who even try to contibute to the above (I'm guilty as charged) I gotta add my quick thanks.

@ rest. For the 1 out of 1300 comment, consider that there are many, many more mod users who will not comment one way or another. The ratio is even better for you if you are optimistic



Keep in mind that the majority of people probably aren't that interested in this thread or this debate, but are happily enjoying one of the myriad of wonderful mods out there. The satisfied majority aren't known for being vocal

OK, well... this thread doesn't interest me much. The previous one, I had lots of responses, but bringing them up now seems out of place. This one... most of it's been about ratings, and I couldn't care less.

I will say this: I chafe at Princess Stomper's statement of replaceability, but at the same time I very much appreciate the notion that goes behind it - while there will never be another AlienSlof, I truly hope that there will be a next AlienSlof. That I appreciate.

I'd also say to all those who think maybe modders are expecting too much of users - expecting them to know about extraction, installation, OBMM, Bash, load order, and so on, etc etc. - Yes. That is what I expect. If you don't know those things, then stop for a second and think. Read. Learn. There are lots of resources on these things, stickies, websites, etc. I expect my users to be willing, ready, and able to think. I do not mod for the mindless, who want to just "plug-n-play". That holds no interest for me. I want my mods to be appreciated by people with brains in their heads, who use them.

Of course, everyone is new at some point. "Dumb" questions are to be expected, but there is a lot of importance to be placed on how such questions are being asked. One can usually tell the difference between a user who wants to learn, to understand, to think, but is just new and overwhelmed, and the moron who can't be bothered and expects everything delivered to him on a plate.

And as for what users can expect of modders, really, there's nothing beyond basic human respect and honesty. A modder is not "better than" a user, though some modders have certainly been convinced that they were; do not take me to be saying that users don't matter. But what I'm saying is, modders work freely and generously. The only appropriate responses are to either appreciate that and use the mod, or to quietly ignore it. This is the main thing - criticism is only constructive if it is coming from someone who actually has an interest and an appreciation for the mod. Someone who doesn't like the color purple that comments on VA's purple armor? That's just rude; the armor is purple because VA likes purple, your opinion on the color has no relevance to the mod. On the other hand, someone who likes the armor, but suggests that perhaps it might look a little better if there were highlights in another color, that is something perhaps the modder might want to consider.

Basically, just because you have an opinion, does not mean you should speak it. In fact, most of the time, you should not.

As in all communication, it's personal. It's something you have to do with the modder. And part of that means understanding the modder's perspective. One modder may choose to furnish a house in wood because they really prefer those models and textures and they really wanted to build a house around them - commentary on those models is not appropriate. On the other hand, the modder may have just chosen those models because they seemed like a decent fit at the time and the modder was more interested in focusing on some other part of the mod - then commentary on it is quite warranted. It's important for modders and users to be very clear with each other and respect each other in that way.

Really, though, the only things you can fairly "expect" of a modder is a honest readme that accurately describes what the mod does, and hopefully includes some kind of idea on what the modders plans for it are, whether they'll be updating it or interested in suggestions, that kind of thing. Beyond that, it's really the modder's decision, and if you don't like it the only thing you can really do is just not use the mod. The modder owes you nothing. The only real complaint is when a mod does things to your game that it did not warn you about in the readme - that bare minimum, I think, is reasonable for users to expect. But really, nothing more than that seems fair to me. Which is why I have no interest in a ratings system - a mod's success is wholly up to the modder themselves, whether or not it fulfilled their goals for the mod. What you think of it... really has no bearing on whether or not it succeeded in what the modder wanted to accomplish.

Underlined and Italicized (and sometimes Bolded) for emphasis

Well said, and better said than how I've been trying to say it.

As I've said before, I once got a lower rating because a person thought that two colors in my Screenshot didn't match.

If I see a mod I don't like, or am not going to use, what good is it for me to leave a comment?

I will just not use the mod, I feel no Compulsion or Obsession with letting a Modder know that I'm not going to be using it.

I think people do that because they feel a bit too self-important, and their "I'm not going to use this mod"
is actually hurting the modder somehow, when in actuality it's just a childish jab, that
somehow the mod refuser's opinion is just so important that it needs to be heard.

This, plus the general expectation that the mod should do what the readme/description states it should (i.e. clean of dirty edits, "extras" thrown in with no documentation whatsoever), is yet another reason why I <3 DragoonWraith.

I still chafe a bit about the idea that people should not voice their opinion, I understand where you are coming from. I think your example with the purple armor is rather spot on, and should perhaps be slightly modified in that: If a particular modder expressed intent/purpose behind a certain facet of his/her mod, voicing your opinion on it is rather pointless--it's the modder's prerogative (and you can always change it yourself for yourself ). However, if the intent/purpose is not there, I think opinions (for or against) should be expressed constructively. Who knows, maybe the modder won't get anything out of it--but on the other hand, someone may end up being a muse for that modder.

Again, I think that opinions on various mod choices should be voiced without reservation, as long as they are constructive.


Additionally, in case it's not completely clear, my voice is that of a mod-user, not a modder--however, I do understand much of the stress (and joy) that comes from modding (and releasing) for other games.

I love readmes but some of them are really hard to read. They are ultra long and in very poor format. Some of the mods you most need readmes for are this way and some utilities, which are great, have devilishly hard to read readmes. If the readme is ultra long perhaps it could be formatted in such a way that its easier to handle

This is the reason that for RST, which has a lot of info to document, I've developed an experimental new ReadMe technique. I'm excited to see what the community thinks when it releases, so far the tester feedback has been very positive!

Hehe, thanks. Yes, this definitely covers some compatibility issues - it's one thing for a modder to create a complete overhaul of leveled lists and say "I made the leveled lists they way I like them; I'm sharing because I figure maybe someone else will like them this way. It's not compatible with other overhauls and it's not meant to be" - that's a modder's choice, and as long as they're honest about it I would take issue with any criticism of them for it. On the other hand, if someone's read me says "the mod adds a new set of armor" and you discover it's also re-done all of the pathgrids in the game and is therefore incompatible with, well, everything... that is a really legitimate complaint.


Yes, I mean, a lot of times it's impossible to know what a modder is and is not interested in hearing. In the example I gave with the furniture, where one modder designed the whole mod around them and another just put them there because they needed to put something there, there may be no way of knowing which a given modder is ahead of time. In that case, it's really just a matter of being polite, of understanding that the modder may disagree with your opinion, and of expressing your suggestion as just that - a suggestion, a bit of food for thought. Any demands of a modder are just... unreasonable. And a certain kind of respect is that of understanding and accepting another's opinion - if the modder intentionally did it one way, even if you don't like it, it's really just rude to bring it up. If the readme says "I really liked this furniture, so I made this house to go with it", then to criticize the choice of furniture is pointless and rude.

And your parenthetical is perhaps the most important thing in all of modding: You can always change it for yourself. As much as many users seem to underestimate just how much work modding is, many also seem to think that it's something they could never do. This was one of Princess Stomper's main points in the last thread, and one I really liked - you can change a mod to suit your tastes. This is accepted, and really, very much welcomed. I would be so flattered if anyone PMed me saying "Hey, I liked your work so much that I decided that I really wanted to be a part of it, and wanted to really tailor it to match me" - I would love that (granted, my mods are not the kinds of things that lend themselves to that, but whatever). I appreciate work. Really, there is no one who has ever opened the CS and tried that I don't appreciate for that. It's not impossible. A lot of it is even rather easy. Modding is primarily difficult because of the matter of time. But not all of it takes a lot of time. Especially tweaking something to match a specific desire.

Seriously, I encourage each and every one of you to install the CS, open up your favorite mod, and tinker with it. Even just a little bit, just find that one little detail in your favorite mod that you wish was a little different - and find out how to change it. Search the Wiki, start a thread in the CS forum. It's not hard, and we love to help. I'd love to hear about anyone's adventures in this.

I believe the word "replace" was unnecessarily polarizing. It an unfortunate choice of words. Now I can't speak for anybody else but when I read Princess Stomper's posts the concept that came to mind was something closer to "generations". One generation succeeds another; it does not, in my mind, replace another. I do not replace my father and he did not replace his father.

To take some examples from fine art: when Da Vinci died the art world did not come to a stop. When Titian began painting Da Vinci did not cease to exist. At Titian's death the art world again did not come to a stop. And the appearance of Rembrandt did not cause Titian's work or influence to disappear - or that of Da Vinci, for that matter.

This is how I interpreted Princess Stomper's comments. One artist gives way to another artist just as one generation gives way to another generation. And I believe we should be thankful for what each artist gave us and appreciate the good qualities of the artists who come after.

I agree, Pseron; that was how I came to understand what she was saying by the end of the thread. Certainly initially, however, I was not happy with what I was reading. A very poor choice of words. Nonetheless, yes, I very much agree with the idea of generations. Like I said - there will never be another AlienSlof, but I do hope to see the next "AlienSlof".

I think this is the perfect way to put it. Generations...a far better choice of word and I think we can all agree at last on this.

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